Rumours on low Dominion sales - discussion

[wargames101]

I think it's a mark of success that "Selling out in 15 minutes" is the baseline upon which GW is being judged here. Taking a month to clear the inventory doesn't strike me as a sign the game is doomed to failure. AOS box sets have generally sold more slowly, Aether War and Shadow & Pain being notable recent examples. The AOS battleforces always hang around longer at Christmas. 

It's a bit worrying that AoS is coming in behind Marvel Crisis Protocol given the smaller number of SKUs and lower price of the upstart game, but it's hard to argue with the IP. 

[Paladin of Khorne]

I’m saving for the ork release; that’s why I’m not buying this set. Making the decision easier (though it is tough to watch it pass by) is the look of the hobgrots, the duplicate spearmen, the fact I can barely play 40K let alone an AoS game these days, and I just cleared out my plastic backlog via selling so to bring in another swole box of plastic just seems counterproductive. 

it’s a great looking set and all the hubbub on social media for release day is making it hard, but like I said I have hundreds in the hopper for the upcoming Orks release. I just can’t justify an extra 200$  FOMO or not

 

edit: if I’m worried about anything it’s GW seeing the lack of sell-outs and saying “welp, guess the CC and Indomitus sales models really were the right ways to go”. 

Edited July 4, 2021 by Paladin of Khorne

[Overread]

27 minutes ago, Paladin of Khorne said:

edit: if I’m worried about anything it’s GW seeing the lack of sell-outs and saying “welp, guess the CC and Indomitus sales models really were the right ways to go”. 

I honestly think that was how the late Kirby era upper GW was functioning. They were looking at sales data, which is darn important to look at don't get me wrong; but they were looking at it purely in isolation. They were seeing trends and looking for the best returns on investment, but without considering the wider context of those sales and the consumer reasoning behind them. So they'd see X selling really well and would push development of more X at the cost of Y; without realising that the main reason Y wasn't selling was because they were pushing X and not Y. Another aspect is something like Marines - yes you can push marine sales, but those marine players want opponents; they want Xenos and Chaos to fight against not just purely more marines. 

 

Again this was a failing of the Kirby era system in that it was very focused on the numerical side but not the consumer side and it eventually backfired with AoS  at launch. Both in terms of the product that was created ,but also in terms of the marketing that they did around it. Even if you loved AoS at launch, you can easily see that it was very badly marketed. Almost zero actual marketing after a big marketing push for Old World (the product they were going to remove). 

 

 

GW learned from that and today I think they've a much more robust approach to market data and considering the greater picture of not just the numbers, but also the consumer feedback

[AaronWilson]

This time is the first time round I've not bought the core rulebook, everything you need is in the GHB which is fantastic. With AoS now having faction terrain, endless spells, campaign books, etc I'm less inclined to just buy everything and only what I need. 

[KriticalKhan]

I don't think I've seen anyone bring this up, so I wanted to point out something about the command tokens.

Thanks to the terms and conditions on Dominion's page, we know that there are 33,050 copies that include the special command tokens with them. Once they're gone, they're gone for good, and any copies of Dominion that are ordered after will not include them.

Essentially, it's a limited release within a limited release.

Before I veer into speculation, the last fact I'll mention is that the command tokens are still being added to orders, meaning that GW has sold less than 33,050 copies of Dominion (unless a lot of people took the free thing out of their cart before ordering).

Going back to the idea that it's a limited item inside another limited item, to me, it would make sense that your special incentive item has less copies than the standard version. I.e. there are at least 33,051 copies of Dominion that don't include the command tokens. Again, that is only speculation, and there's no telling how many of those copies would be with GW vs sent out to 3rd party retailers.

If all those copies are with GW and they had a separate stock for 3rd party stores, then GW would have, in almost a month, sold less than half of their stock of Dominion. You can make all the arguments you want about consumer access, but that's just not good business.

More reasonably, we can assume that this unknown number of copies was split between 3rd party stores and sold at the same time as GW's.

There's no way of getting any kind of hard numbers for any of this other than the 33,050 still not being sold out, but this kind of discussion didn't happen with Indomitus, it didn't happen with any versus boxes, and it didn't come from nowhere.

[NinthMusketeer]

Ehhh, command tokens aren't much of a freebee. I'd guess that the terms & conditions are just to cover a bit of excess over the 33050, otherwise It'd be a hard cap (by their measure, at least). Also 33050 worldwide or for a certain country?

But my FLGS sold out the day of release so maybe my perception is colored.

[NinthMusketeer]

On 7/1/2021 at 11:44 AM, wargames101 said:

I think it's a mark of success that "Selling out in 15 minutes" is the baseline upon which GW is being judged here. Taking a month to clear the inventory doesn't strike me as a sign the game is doomed to failure. AOS box sets have generally sold more slowly, Aether War and Shadow & Pain being notable recent examples. The AOS battleforces always hang around longer at Christmas.

Let us not forget that once stock does run out it will take about that long for the criticism of how GW printed too few to start.

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, KriticalKhan said:

but this kind of discussion didn't happen with Indomitus

Yeah it was the opposite discussion that GW flubbed up by understocking and that a good 8/10th was claimed by scalpers and their bots. If they didn't bounce back with made to orders it would've been a major fiasco.

Dominion is how Indomitus should've went. A good week of sales for all those players begging to have it stick around until paycheck day so the vast majority of the community can enjoy it. That's good business and invigorating the hobby rather than people getting ripped off on Ebay with less to spend on GW proper.

Besides, the box is now on Last Chance and all the bundles and special stuff is sold out. It went well. The tokens are hardly anything when people also look to their retailers to make the starter kit even more affordable.

Edited July 11, 2021 by Baron Klatz

[Talas]

I went to pick up my Dominion box and apparently, the owner of my FLGS got 50 boxes and already sold 30 in just preorders and another 10 from people coming to the store. Not bad for a store in a third-world country. I can't wait to start teaching new people to play.

[Sleboda]

3 hours ago, Talas said:

I went to pick up my Dominion box and apparently, the owner of my FLGS got 50 boxes and already sold 30 in just preorders and another 10 from people coming to the store. Not bad for a store in a third-world country. I can't wait to start teaching new people to play.

Just an added data point:

I had added my name to the list to reserve a copy at a nearby store (in addition to getting one from GW direct). I was 9th on the list.

I drove the 90 minutes to the shop on release day, went to the counter, pointed to a stack of Dominion boxes, and said "I think one of those is mine."

The clerk turned to a person in charge with a quizzical look.

The 'manager' rolled his eyes and said, quietly, "We got rid of the reserve list. We got plennnnnnty of copies."

The clear implication was that they got far more boxes than they thought they would sell.

[Noserenda]

The LGS partner i was talking to said they blew through over half their allocation on pre orders, half that again since and pretty confident theyll be done soon enough. This is someone from a store that has pretty limited space and they are happy enough Dominion wont be dead stock.

Trying to work out sales from the total of token sets relies on a whooooole heap of assumptions, enough to be nigh useless though.

[Bosskelot]

GW sales reps have been incredibly pushy with indie retailers ever since Indomitus apparently. Really trying to make them order Indomitus levels of stock for every single box release, regardless of the game or the local scene.

At my local, he'd had the gw rep trying to justify 100+ boxes of Dominion because he'd sold 125 Indomitus boxes. The rep just didn't understand that despite AOS's growth, it's nowhere near 40k popularity in the slightest, especially locally.

He ended up ordering 30 only half of which have actually been sold with the rest now sitting on the shelf collecting dust.

[shinros]

So, here's my opinion. We're not really going to find out whether GW is happy with the sales of Dominion until we get to the financial report. That's the crux of the matter, no matter how GW spin it, people can easily read between the lines. The thing is with AOS at least in my opinion, people play a wider range of factions. It's not like 40k, where if GW makes a new space marine release, people will just buy it up. Stormcast players themselves, at least from my observation aren't like that either. For example, take it from GW themselves, look at one of their previous reports, GW outright essentially said AOS' wider range is doing well, than a singular faction.  

Overall though, again, my opinion. I don't think Dominion is a good box. I'll go into why I personally have no interest. 

First thing, I don't care about Hammers of Sigmar, they have too many characters, most barely know anything about them either. If you look at the net, guess which faction gets more traction and interest when it comes to stormcast? Hallowed Knights. Since this day, I think it has been a misfire to make Hammers of Sigmar the poster boy stormcast faction. Hallowed knights fit the paladin theme far more better, plus they're easier to paint on top of that. Also, I just don't like Yndrasta either. 

This was their chance to course correct and they didn't. 

Now, the destruction side of the box, another misfire. I like lord of the rings, just recently finished reading the book, so I like the look of the orcs, but here's the issue. It's more orcs, orcs that don't seem to mesh well with the orcs we have already. What I think GW should of done is introduce a whole new destruction faction, that aren't orcs or update an existing line. Like, I don't know, Ironjawz maybe? Then after that introduce the new orcs as their own standalone faction. 

In the end even if the box is selling poorly, I'm not bothered, why? Because if GW has any sense that would mean they would reassess what boxes they do and what factions they put in them. My hope is for both 40k and AOS, that they move away from the outlook that every starter box has to have the poster faction in it, or just continue to make boxes with two different factions facing one another. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by shinros

[Warfiend]

I think the lackluster content of the set also plays a big role.

Many of the stormcast miniatures are extremely bland. Which is great if you like more realistic models like me, but this look is in stark contrast with their over the top helmets.

It would be much better if they had made a realistic cities range with actual helmets, and made stormcast more over the top to fit within their God-forged narrative.

Where they really went wrong with this release is the Kruleboyz IMO an entirely new range and aesthetic. My biggest gripe with them is their out of wack proportions (tiny legs) and the fact that they do not fit in with a the already established warclans factions. The kruleboyz as a faction are overly designed and many of their monsters look quite stupid. When some rumored a crocodilian type monster I could see myself really liking it, but the rumors were entirely false, we got a goofy looking anteater instead. The niche of a cowardly yet cunning faction is already taken by the gloom-spite gits.

if you look at the latest 40k release a set of just orks (classic gw orks, that actually look amazing imo) it sold out within an hour in pretty much every region.

Personally I believe the disappointing sales for dominions are entirely the result of the lackluster design of the majority of the models in the set.

[Chikout]

1 hour ago, Warfiend said:

I think the lackluster content of the set also plays a big role.

Many of the stormcast miniatures are extremely bland. Which is great if you like more realistic models like me, but this look is in stark contrast with their over the top helmets.

It would be much better if they had made a realistic cities range with actual helmets, and made stormcast more over the top to fit within their God-forged narrative.

Where they really went wrong with this release is the Kruleboyz IMO an entirely new range and aesthetic. My biggest gripe with them is their out of wack proportions (tiny legs) and the fact that they do not fit in with a the already established warclans factions. The kruleboyz as a faction are overly designed and many of their monsters look quite stupid. When some rumored a crocodilian type monster I could see myself really liking it, but the rumors were entirely false, we got a goofy looking anteater instead. The niche of a cowardly yet cunning faction is already taken by the gloom-spite gits.

if you look at the latest 40k release a set of just orks (classic gw orks, that actually look amazing imo) it sold out within an hour in pretty much every region.

Personally I believe the disappointing sales for dominions are entirely the result of the lackluster design of the majority of the models in the set.

Comparing the sales of Dominion to the Beastsnagga box is pretty meaningless. It's clear that they made far fewer of that set. Australian stores only got one copy from gw each, but got 30 or 60 copies of Dominion.

The problem with aesthetics is that it's massively personal and guessing how a range will take is far from an exact science. Personally I love all the models except the Hobgrotz. Unfortunately they make up a third of the box. If we had got 10 more Gutrippas and the Troggoth but no Hobgrotz, I would have purchased the box day 1 even though there would be fewer models overall. 

[Jymmy]

1 hour ago, Warfiend said:

I think the lackluster content of the set also plays a big role.

Many of the stormcast miniatures are extremely bland. Which is great if you like more realistic models like me, but this look is in stark contrast with their over the top helmets.

It would be much better if they had made a realistic cities range with actual helmets, and made stormcast more over the top to fit within their God-forged narrative.

Where they really went wrong with this release is the Kruleboyz IMO an entirely new range and aesthetic. My biggest gripe with them is their out of wack proportions (tiny legs) and the fact that they do not fit in with a the already established warclans factions. The kruleboyz as a faction are overly designed and many of their monsters look quite stupid. When some rumored a crocodilian type monster I could see myself really liking it, but the rumors were entirely false, we got a goofy looking anteater instead. The niche of a cowardly yet cunning faction is already taken by the gloom-spite gits.

if you look at the latest 40k release a set of just orks (classic gw orks, that actually look amazing imo) it sold out within an hour in pretty much every region.

Personally I believe the disappointing sales for dominions are entirely the result of the lackluster design of the majority of the models in the set.

I also think that the change in the overall aesthetic is a mistake. Precisely the only think that I like in the box are the hobgrots, but because they are something fully new, and for thar reason, I find it comprehensible that they could be something exotic that stands out (also for their unknown origin). I find it harder to justify the rest of the range…

[ArkanautDadmiral]

2 hours ago, Jymmy said:

I also think that the change in the overall aesthetic is a mistake. Precisely the only think that I like in the box are the hobgrots, but because they are something fully new, and for thar reason, I find it comprehensible that they could be something exotic that stands out (also for their unknown origin). I find it harder to justify the rest of the range…

You’ve got the flip side of this argument too though.

I wouldn’t have touched this box if the Stormcast were the same style as before and/or if the Kruleboyz were more like the other Orruks.

There must have been far fewer Beast Snagga boxes. If my local received the same allocation for Dominion as they did Beast Snaggas they would have sold out of Dominion too.

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Warfiend said:

I think the lackluster content of the set also plays a big role.

Many of the stormcast miniatures are extremely bland. Which is great if you like more realistic models like me, but this look is in stark contrast with their over the top helmets.

It would be much better if they had made a realistic cities range with actual helmets, and made stormcast more over the top to fit within their God-forged narrative.

Where they really went wrong with this release is the Kruleboyz IMO an entirely new range and aesthetic. My biggest gripe with them is their out of wack proportions (tiny legs) and the fact that they do not fit in with a the already established warclans factions. The kruleboyz as a faction are overly designed and many of their monsters look quite stupid. When some rumored a crocodilian type monster I could see myself really liking it, but the rumors were entirely false, we got a goofy looking anteater instead. The niche of a cowardly yet cunning faction is already taken by the gloom-spite gits.

if you look at the latest 40k release a set of just orks (classic gw orks, that actually look amazing imo) it sold out within an hour in pretty much every region.

Personally I believe the disappointing sales for dominions are entirely the result of the lackluster design of the majority of the models in the set.

Beastsnagga is currently the only way to get the new Ork codex (with new rules). Which is mental. 

They also produced a much more limited run.

That is in no way comparable.

GW finally made Stormcast that look good, and I love the orcs. The bad thing though, was that the orc part only has one battleline, and at time of release there was no way to get a legal 1000-2000 point army of their sabfaction was three Dominion boxes, which is a bit steep.

The Hobgoblins look okay, but are distinct from the orcs, and are the majority of their side of the box.

[Elmir]

I was happy to see the smallest "warrior" starter set included 10 more Gutrippaz. I think I'll be picking up a box or 2 down the line IF they don't decide to get all janky with having to add a bannerbearer and musician to the gutrippaz, forcing you to buy the regular boxes too. 

It seems they already did something similar with the crossbow boyz needing a unit champion only found in the multipart box? 

[Jator]

 I doubt aesthetics had a big role in Dominion "low" sales. GW has a track record on making boxes runs based on the previous ones without considering the game/setting. 
One of the major blunders in their story was the big Gorkamorka release, which they treated as if it was a new 40k edition.
  Seems like they don't learn from their mistakes.

[Landohammer]

I just won an ebay auction for a Dominion box for $127 USD plus shipping. They are available for buy it now for as low as $160+free shipping. The last time I got an AOS box at this level of discount was when AOS 1.0 launched.

I think underselling and overproducing are two distinct problems. If you make 200K boxes but only sell 100K then your product didn't sell poorly, you overestimated demand.

Personal Rant: Does GW just not understand that Stormcast are unpopular? Anybody who deals in models on the second-hand market for more than 2 seconds understands that stormcast just don't move. Meanwhile LRL and Soulblight are selling as fast as they make them. 

I'd wager literally any other faction would likely have sold better. 

 

[Riavan]

I prefer the ironjawz look for orcs.

[Clan's Cynic]

36 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I just won an ebay auction for a Dominion box for $127 USD plus shipping. They are available for buy it now for as low as $160+free shipping. The last time I got an AOS box at this level of discount was when AOS 1.0 launched.

I think underselling and overproducing are two distinct problems. If you make 200K boxes but only sell 100K then your product didn't sell poorly, you overestimated demand.

Personal Rant: Does GW just not understand that Stormcast are unpopular? Anybody who deals in models on the second-hand market for more than 2 seconds understands that stormcast just don't move. Meanwhile LRL and Soulblight are selling as fast as they make them. 

I'd wager literally any other faction would likely have sold better. 

 

Polling seems to suggest Stormcast are plenty popular, if not the most popular army in the game, it's just the gap between them and the next most popular army isn't anywhere near as wide as Space Marines.

Take Necrons for example - compare how much cheaper you can get their Indomitus contents compared to Primaris on the second hand market, but I don't think anybody would describe them as unpopular, particularly after their range update, just not anywhere near Marine numbers. 

Mortal Realms also massively inflated the second-hand Stormcast (and Nighthaunt) market the same way it did Death Guard.

Remember even before the new Battletome was announced, it wasn't difficult at all to grab the Lumineth Army Box either, but they're undoubtedly one of the more popular armies.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[Chikout]

14 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I just won an ebay auction for a Dominion box for $127 USD plus shipping. They are available for buy it now for as low as $160+free shipping. The last time I got an AOS box at this level of discount was when AOS 1.0 launched.

I think underselling and overproducing are two distinct problems. If you make 200K boxes but only sell 100K then your product didn't sell poorly, you overestimated demand.

Personal Rant: Does GW just not understand that Stormcast are unpopular? Anybody who deals in models on the second-hand market for more than 2 seconds understands that stormcast just don't move. Meanwhile LRL and Soulblight are selling as fast as they make them. 

I'd wager literally any other faction would likely have sold better. 

 

Second hand Stormcast doesn't because it's very easy to get hold of. The magazine has been an endless source of very cheap Stormcast models, probably cheaper than most resellers are asking for. 

LRL and especially Soulblight are much rarer and so the value is higher. The LRL launch box never sold out after all. When the second wave of kits launched, nothing sold out fast. Soulblight on the other hand are a genuinely popular army. 

I did a quick check on Instagram the other day. There are almost twice as many #stormcasteternals posts as any other faction. Skaven have the second most. Again that may just be because they are easy to get hold of but people seem to enjoy painting Stormcast. 

[Landohammer]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

Polling seems to suggest Stormcast are plenty popular, if not the most popular army in the game, it's just the gap between them and the next most popular army isn't anywhere near as wide as Space Marines.

Take Necrons for example - compare how much cheaper you can get their Indomitus contents compared to Primaris on the second hand market, but I don't think anybody would describe them as unpopular, particularly after their range update, just not anywhere near Marine numbers. 

Remember even before the new Battletome was announced, it wasn't difficult at all to grab the Lumineth Army Box either, but they're undoubtedly one of the more popular armies.

Is Stormcast popular as a faction? Or do people just own models because of starter kits? I go to a lot of tournaments and in my meta pure stormcast armies are extremely rare. Like rarer than BOC, NH or Sylvaneth. 

Most SC models I see on the table are in cities armies or as allies.