Why do you accept this mess?

[RuneBrush]

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

In truth, the prices have gone up less than my grocery shop, so not really noticed it much.  I'd still prefer battleline units to be less detailed and packed in 20's though 😁

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 ooks / releases to have all of the rules together.

Although there may be some circumstances where you may need that many books, that's not normal.  You normally can get away with your battletome and the generals handbook - in truth with careful use of warscroll cards along with online resources or a photocopier, you can really cut down the amount of stuff you have to card around.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

This happens pretty much in every single game (including computer).  I don't think AoS is particularly horrific for it and often it seems to comes because of the cool factor - e.g. wouldn't it be cool to have an army entirely of dragons?  It certainly isn't a game of escalation as I've seen in the past.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

There are some factions that are in need of an update, I'll give you that.  I feel AoS grew too quickly and we now have a number of armies that are far smaller than they deserve.  However AoS is only 6/7 years old - I can remember waiting longer than that for an update to a Codex.  We're seeing a lot of small updates being released in White Dwarf which is pretty cool and helping breath life into some factions.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

Some models are, but the time between the box set and individual release seems to have reduced and now looking at ~6 months.  That said, I still want to be able to buy a Khorgorath on it's own...

6. FAQ debacle.

That one seems to have passed me by?

7. Massive FOMO

It's called marketing and it's employed by almost every company out there...  Sorry, I've just reread my post and realised that comes across as very flippant.  Most companies that sell non-essential products will use fomo tactics to sell products - I'm certainly guilty of buying into them on GW's part, with "free" items when you buy direct etc.  Broadly speaking you need to think with your wallet rather than heart.

Why do you accept this mess? Looking for individual opinions here.

I think our definition of mess must differ somewhat.  I've been in the hobby for the past 30 years and can honestly say I've never seen it quite as healthy or popular as it currently is.  Yes, there's plenty of scope to improve, but as a game system, AoS isn't in a bad place.

[Gitzdee]

3 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I'd still prefer battleline units to be less detailed and packed in 20's though 😁

Totally agree with this.

[pnkdth]

16 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

That one seems to have passed me by?

I think they're referring to the FAQ for a FAQ and then having to errata it, only to change it back because they broke even more rule interactions. In particular I remember a lot of silliness with stacking different kinds of after saves as some were done before/after wound allocation. In other words, the wording made it sounds like a ward isn't always a ward except it was but it wasn't because X and Y... Relatively short lived but needless to say it does not reflect terribly well on the rules team when manage to fumble their own rules like that. In addition, it lent extra weight to the claim that they had to work under unreasonable deadlines which in turn lead to lower quality.

It was weird time with a lot "it is technically RAW" being thrown around.

Edited January 17, 2022 by pnkdth

[Clan's Cynic]

People would rather play a bad wargame than have no wargame at all.

A lot of people only stick with 40k/AoS because you can take your models, walk into just about any gamestore in the country - or abroad - and you've a reasonable chance of finding a game, especially 40k. There are plenty of other rulesets to play from, but very few people take them up despite positive word-of-mouth and I think this is also why houseruling is looked down upon, because you can stumble into Random Joe and if you both know the 40k/AoS ruleset you can plonk down the models. 

You can put £500 into a new 40k army and know years from now you'll be able to use it. If you play anything else, whether that's Legion, Malifaux, MCP, Warmahordes, there's always the chance that a botched edition, a bankruptcy, players moving, whatever, can swoop in and kill your local community at any moment. The overwhelming majority of people get into wargaming with 40k, so whilst there's probably a good turn over of people there's always a steady stream of freshfaced newbies to replace them. If GW releases the worst edition of 40k ever you still know almost everyone is still going to be playing it - AoS less so, but odds are you'll still find far more players for it than non-GW games..

How many times have you looked at alternative wargames and thought, "Wow that looks cool. I'd love to try it but I don't know anyone who'd play locally" and that about sums it up. It doesn't help that when people do take up the flag for those other games, all of their hardwork to establish a community can be killed by nothing more than the latest edition of 40k sweeping up all the buzz for months and leaving the perception the other game is "dead locally."

I think this is also why historicals tend to buck the trend, because Shermans and Tigers and Napoleon's Imperial Guard were real things and any company - whether it's got a turnover of millions or is literally a guy casting in his garage - can make models for them and therefore people/communities tend to be very flexible about rulesets, far more than what you see in fantasy and sci-fi communities. A Panzer IV is a Panzer IV, the only difference is scale and most systems are pretty agnostic about it for that reason, but there's only one IP an Intercessor Marine comes from.

Wargaming isn't cheap - and no I don't want to hear any "hurr there are more expensive hobbies" - so it's understandable people don't want to feel like they're wasting money or that their chosen game could go over the edge at any moment. I think that's why there's so much excitement for The Old World even though if you talk to just about anybody who isn't welded to Games Workshop would tell you Mantic/Kings of War is a far better written game than anything GW will make; because ultimately TOR is likely going to ensure there's an active, consistent community by virtue of being a GW game.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Clan's Cynic

[Doko]

1. Prices increasing with each new release.
--i dont like and i try dont buy boxes that i think the increase is too much as fel bats for 40€ to me is too much and i just dont buy it
2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 ooks / releases to have all of the rules together.
--im not a tournament player,so i never have bougth ofittial books and only download the rules in internet and print it,so i dont care if they are from 4 diferents books because i just print the 4 sources together and no problem(i can pay many money for miniatures because its something fisical but i refuse to pay money for rules that must be free together the miniature that i bougth)
3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.
--i hate this,so easy as power creep is bad,but im a warhammer lover so i wont change to other game
4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.
--yes this is a joke as factions as stormcast or daemons have got 999999 new kits while others as fyreslayers have got 0 new units in 7 years even if they only have two non hero boxes
5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.
--i dont care because i allways buy these big sets due to the savings of the box
6. FAQ debacle.
--i like,i have many free time and i like the spice of argue about changes,if you are speaking about as the faq are horribles(as nerfing irondrakes when citys is middle tier  AND new reavers are 100% better in every aspect for same cost)then yes its stupid someone be paid for this horrible work of balance that one person with 5 minutes and knowledge of the game can do better than they did after 1 year 

[Fairbanks]

I'm going to start by saying that I'm somewhere between a savvy buyer and a whale, so my answers may not apply to everyone else.

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

For both Americans and Brits, a 2-3% inflation rate is normal, so not a fan exactly of GW's 5% inflation. I'd say I don't care as long as we don't get more price rises, but it's just inevitable.

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 books / releases to have all of the rules together.

This only applies for tournament players. If you don't want all of that, my suggestion would just be to use warscrolls on the app and utilize (Websites that violate this site's rules to mention, 1 being opinions on the rules and probably legit, and the other being straight up copy/paste from the books and probably not legit) as much as possible.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

*Laughs in new Slaanesh models*

Look, if you want to chase the meta and play hardcore at tournaments, do it. But I honestly think you should consider playing Magic or any other video game instead.

But in reality, everyone is gonna get an update, and may even get their time in the sun.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, which just don't get anything new and up to date.

*Laughs in Bretonnian, Nehekharan, and Goat Noises*

This has gotten better, since nearly everything was updated in the last three-four years if not twice or more since AoS started. Yes, it sucks to wait, but I'd rather wait five for something new than rebuy books every 1-2 years (This is the real issue of price increases that derives from your first topic, not the literal occasional price increases)

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

I usually buy the big box sets, but I'm the weird guy who collects every army, and the quickest/cheapest way to do that is via big boxes. I don't like it, but there's zero reason we have to play WYSIWYG. So either just use a stand in or kitbash your own (Gave a new FEC player one of the three Crypt Horror/Flayer sprues I had and told him he could kitbash a pretty cool Archreagent from it. And he did, and then the model came out two months later)

6. FAQ debacle.

Rules/points updates are good if we keep it to one-two pages at a time, make smart meta choices, and update sparsely (quarterly at most). Bad if they have to errata large sections of the books. Downright Ugly if they're FAQing rules incorrectly from how it should work or how it's written

7. Massive FOMO.

Cursed City and Ork Box was BAD, but the ship has seemingly righted itself since Dominion.

I actually give the benefit of the doubt here to GW They aren't implementing a sales tactic, they've just had major stocking and restocking issues since Covid started (Half the Ad Mech and Dark Eldar models, even old ones, were out of stock for the longest time). Now all that said, I think they should offer big boxes year round (Of course, I may not have bought the ones I have if they did, but whatever)

[Skreech Verminking]

I’m currently stuck with my studies, so personally I won’t be taking part in this community too often for the next 1-2 months.

so if the game is currently a mess or not really isn’t going to matter too mich to me for the time being.

ps: in 40k, I’m more of a fun/narrative player.

my group isn’t too interested in the competitive environment of that system, and the new edition of matched play rules that will be released every 6month or so, really won’t be part of my concern.

The core-rules are fine enough, when it comes down to battle-plans and secondaries, for the few amount of times we have and will play that system. And points can easily be acquired by different sources.

[NauticalSoup]

40 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

People would rather play a bad wargame than have no wargame at all.

This is the answer to every question on the list.

Warhammer is ubiquitous in hobby miniatures, so unless you're into historicals, it's the 'safe' choice. You'll virtually always be able to find players and it isn't going anywhere. Even other big games like Warmachine or X-wing seem to stumble and die after only a few years.

Warhammer could be a LOT worse than it is, and I would still be playing it. I know this because it has been much worse, and I kept playing. 

[Skreech Verminking]

5 minutes ago, NauticalSoup said:

Warhammer could be a LOT worse than it is, and I would still be playing it. I know this because it has been much worse, and I kept playing. 

The death sentence to the skaven faction, could remove me entirely from the game (thankfully that hasn’t happened and very likely won’t either)

at this point I would just start playing kings of war, warhammer fantasy army project, and/ or one page rules

Edited January 17, 2022 by Skreech Verminking

[zilberfrid]

48 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

People would rather play a bad wargame than have no wargame at all.

A lot of people only stick with 40k/AoS because you can take your models, walk into just about any gamestore in the country - or abroad - and you've a reasonable chance of finding a game, especially 40k. There are plenty of other rulesets to play from, but very few people take them up despite positive word-of-mouth and I think this is also why houseruling is looked down upon, because you can stumble into Random Joe and if you both know the 40k/AoS ruleset you can plonk down the models. 

You can put £500 into a new 40k army and know years from now you'll be able to use it. If you play anything else, whether that's Legion, Malifaux, MCP, Warmahordes, there's always the chance that a botched edition, a bankruptcy, players moving, whatever, can swoop in and kill your local community at any moment. The overwhelming majority of people get into wargaming with 40k, so whilst there's probably a good turn over of people there's always a steady stream of freshfaced newbies to replace them.

How many times have you looked at alternative wargames and thought, "Wow that looks cool. I'd love to try it but I don't know anyone who'd play locally" and that about sums it up. It doesn't help that when people do take up the flag for those other games, all of their hardwork to establish a community can be killed by nothing more than the latest edition of 40k sweeping up all the buzz for months and leaving the perception the other game is "dead locally."

I think this is also why historicals tend to buck the trend, because Shermans and Tigers and Napoleon's Imperial Guard were real things and any company - whether it's got a turnover of millions or is literally a guy casting in his garage - can make models for them and therefore people/communities tend to be very flexible about rulesets, far more than what you see in fantasy and sci-fi communities. A Panzer IV is a Panzer IV, the only difference is scale and most systems are pretty agnostic about it for that reason, but there's only one IP an Intercessor Marine comes from.

Wargaming isn't cheap - and no I don't want to hear any "hurr there are more expensive hobbies" - so it's understandable people don't want to feel like they're wasting money or that their chosen game could go over the edge at any moment. I think that's why there's so much excitement for The Old World even though if you talk to just about anybody who isn't welded to Games Workshop would tell you Mantic/Kings of War is a far better written game than anything GW will make; because ultimately TOR is likely going to ensure there's an active, consistent community by virtue of being a GW game.

It has gotten better for non-gw games. I could (before covid) go into a shop for a Frostgrave game and have a decent chance of finding someone.

As for price, if you share the rulebook, you can get a rulebook and 2 teams for Frostgrave or Stargrave for about €50. Wargaming need not be expensive.

[Maogrim]

18 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

I’m currently stuck with my studies, so personally I won’t be taking part in this community too often for the next 1-2 months.

Sorry for going OOT briefly, but:

You'll be sorely missed, my rodent friend. Best of luck in your studies.

[Skreech Verminking]

7 minutes ago, Maogrim said:

Sorry for going OOT briefly, but:

You'll be sorely missed, my rodent friend. Best of luck in your studies.

Thx

[Talas]

I'm still having fun and I can pay. The day I can't pay, I'd play with what I have. The day I start not having fun, I'd stop playing for a while. There are so many hobbies and so little time, why would you stay with something you don't like?

[OkayestDM]

9 hours ago, Battlefury said:

I would like to know you opinion about the state of acceptance due to specific points:

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 ooks / releases to have all of the rules together.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

6. FAQ debacle.

7. Massive FOMO


Why do you accept this mess? Looking for individual opinions here.

cheers///

 

1. Price increases are going to happen. I went into the hobby knowing that and planning accordingly. I budget for the hobby, and there are limits to how much I'm willing to spend on anything.

2. Some additional rules are worth purchasing, and some aren't. I don't fuss myself with being up to date on everything, particularly since if I wait long enough, they get consolidated into a new book anyway.

3. Some new releases are more powerful, but there's plenty that are weaker too. My friends and I can always tweak the lists, points, or rules so that we're playing a good game. 

4. Given how relatively small GW is as a company and the massive number of armies they field, this is gonna happen. It's never fun when it happens to a favorite faction, but at the end of the day it's just toy models and rules on paper. As far as I'm concerned, if I get really upset over things that inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, that's my problem, not GW's.

5. Ebay is my friend. So is proxying or kitbashing.

6. Eh, I don't know the inner workings of GW. They'll get it right eventually. Rules minutia are only really important in the competitive scene, and I don't go to tournaments. My friends and I just agree on what makes sense and go with that.

7. FOMO only gets you if you let it. I don't.

[Kronos]

9 hours ago, Battlefury said:

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 ooks / releases to have all of the rules together.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

6. FAQ debacle.

7. Massive FOMO

1 - I rarely buy warhammer, really, well these days at least. I save for cool kits here an there or projects of Love. I actually spend more on bits than actual miniatures. There was a time I would buy the odd cool kit that would c9me out just for fun. Or Forgeworld Character kits. £40 for some plastic infantry, £20 for a small character kit, The Khan had me fuming, £90 for a primarch model! Yeah not best pleased, but keeps me more focused on current running projects. Nothing of late has really interested me much to actually buy other than a unitof zombies I bought on offer online. 
 

2- NA don’t play

3- Don’t play

 

4- Ok, so a bit selfish, but I get really moany and frustrated when I’ve been waiting years for Characters to be made plastic, or even for units/armies to get a new model, just for some Sky Dwarfs (really sorry) to skip the non existent queue, where the hell is my Plastic Shaggoth, where is Sigmar and Kurnoth!. Kroak might be the first model I’ve actually wanted to be remade, and yet it’s almost for nothing when he’s running around with his Blie Barney Saurus Warriors (again, so so sorry). How old will I be when Night Runners get a model, r will they just squat Eshin like they did with Chaos Trolls (Remember the North, not sorry).

 

 5- It’s a business, I don’t agree with it but I understand the marketing around it. 
 

6- I don’t play

 

7- The care of FOMO has been chipped away. But Instead replaced with mad hobbynideas that haunt my dreams until I make it….

[Charleston]

• Prices: Are high. It is a luxury hobby. I can afford it, I can argue with myself how much I spend for it, but as many others stated, I tend to step back from buying too much new nowadays.
• Book bloat: Is annoying, has driven me to reduce the amount of armies I play, and also pushed most people I know for using websites that have listed them for free, despite copyright beeing an issue here. 
• Rules beeing messy: Well, as someone who plays casually I find it ok. It's annoing to have games in which your army feels inferior and like you never stood a chance, yes, but many times this doesn't have to stop you from having a good time with friends.
• FOMO: Well, self control is a key. Just accept that you do not have to buy each single new release. And that the world keeps turning when you miss that ultra limited game with that limited sculpts. 

In general I like the overall package of the hobby although I have to agree that GW's business tactics leave more and more of a sour taste. When it continues that way less players will play and so I will also look for different past time activities.

As for the topic of powercreep, I have to say that from other games I followed that did focus more on balance, new releases often were skipped by customers and the games became quite fast stale and boring with a dying community. While I find that all factions should have a chance for the win, the powercreep/boost of certain releases still is something that keeps many players invested.

In general GW simply lacks competition from another big player who would push the prices while providing a similar product. They really have a monopol stance here. Smaller fish won't gather enough of the community and won't grow big enough to compete with GW's quality. But imagine Bandai enter the Tabletop Wargame market with some cool new game.

[Mutton]

I've switched over to playing Legion recently, if that's any indication of how I feel about Warhammer and GW as a whole right now.

[Battlefury]

Thank you all for the replies

I wrote the initial post a little cocky on purpose to see, what people think of it and are encouraged, to put up their opinion.
And it worked out pretty nice, since everyone was very polite.


I would like to say, that not all negativity is negativity in a nasty and rude manner. Sometimes it is the concerns, that come up. That's where I am with the game.

And we can all agree to discagree, but coexist with each other and have fun playing a game.

Cheers ///

[PJetski]

Lazy game design and predatory pricing are issues, but Im most concerned about having bad/useless models.  It's baffling that this company keeps getting away with releasing warscrolls like Vanquishers and Vulkites.

[BigNStinky]

I only buy second hand now (ebay, exchange groups etc.) at massive discount.

 

I am more focused on conversions than playing until COVID settles some more so it hasn't been hard to not buy too much.

 

Problem is my motivation is seeing things on the table so without many games its been harder to push myself to finish projects.

 

As for rules? yea they have pretty big flaws. I am hopeful that the FAQ (which they bungled) will be the beginning of a tightening of the ruleset. Dunno I played back in fantasy and old 40k with factions that languished for DECADES so any updates seem good by comparison

 

[the Fel-hand]

The reason is I put with the negatives is because of the community. GW has a lot more reach than other gaming systems and I like the IPs. That said I think it is really important to look at alternatives, because the negatives you brought up in the OP are legitimate. I think people stay in a toxic relationship with GW because of the sunk cost of the hobby and that just creates a downward spiral. Sometimes it's better to take a break and find something new to be passionate about. Maybe down the road they address some of your concerns and you go back.

For me it's been battletech, I like the alpha strike system, the rules are cheap, and the boxsets are a good value (at least in the US). It plays fast and it's simple enough I can explain it another wargamer pretty quickly. Does it have the same sort of scene that the GW does, absolutely not but that's ok it's cheap enough that I can supply the models for a two person game.  

[Dingding123]

1.) The models are cool.

2.) The vanilla warscrolls are flavorful and generally well-written; it's just the generic command abilities and artefacts combined with us drowning in command points making the game a bit more obnoxious than it needs to be.  Honestly if All-Out Attack had a penalty to it and both All-Out Defense and Unleash Hell disappeared entirely I'd be good with that.  If either or both of the latter two came up instead as faction-specific (or heck, Grand Alliance-specific) command abilities then I'd still be fine with that as well. It just doesn't make thematic sense that a Mega-Gargant would suddenly focuses on defending his legs from the army he just charged into the middle of.

3.) The lore and aesthetics are rad.

4.) A 2k point army is still twice as cheap as a competitive Magic deck (or playing Draft or updating a Standard deck for 1~2 years), with more to show for it than just cardboard.

Edited January 17, 2022 by Dingding123

[Eternalis]

7 hours ago, NauticalSoup said:

You'll virtually always be able to find players and it isn't going anywhere. Even other big games like Warmachine or X-wing seem to stumble and die after only a few years.

I keep hearing this from GW games players (and only from them), yet in my country I can go in many places and play any wargame I want to. We're not in the 90's anymore, Wargaming, TTRPG, Boardgame aren't that niche anymore.
Heck, i can even play Mars Code Aurora in a small village of 200 people, did you even know that game?

Edited January 17, 2022 by Eternalis

[Overread]

37 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

I keep hearing this from GW games players (and only from them), yet in my country I can go in many places and play any wargame I want to. We're not in the 90's anymore, Wargaming, TTRPG, Boardgame aren't that niche anymore.
Heck, i can even play Mars Code Aurora in a small village of 200 people, did you even know that game?

Any game, even Warhammer, relies heavily on at least a small core (even just one person) of people who promote the game at the local level. That is people who organise games, communicate, spread the word, recruit others into the game etc... Warhammer its easier because GW does a lot of that work themselves, both through being the major player in the market and through direct means such as their website, videos, on the street stores and more. 

Many other firms don't have the resources for all that, so they rely heavily on local community individuals to represent the game and promote it. All that takes time, dedication, some money and skill. Setting up intro games means having at least 2 basic full forces nicely painted; it means having a good grasp of the rules; it means having good social skills to draw people in, make them feel welcome, introduce them to the game and more. 

For example when Privateer Press ended their Press Ganger system, it was one of the contributing factors in their market starting to fall apart. Losing those informal to formal local reps meant losing the person who kept the games going; who kept drawing people in. Which causes contraction and collapse. 

 

 

In general you can get other games to run locally, but it will take work and effort and requires a skill set that not everyone has, even if they are really passionate about running a certain game. 

 

 

Of course its not all bad, GW recruits new people in all the time and even if they are only playing Warhammer this month, they are in the market, in the wargamer hobby and thus prime targets to be drawn to other games. Even if you only get them as far as painting and building models of other games. 

[Eternalis]

26 minutes ago, Overread said:

Any game, even Warhammer, relies heavily on at least a small core (even just one person) of people who promote the game at the local level

I know all this, and I agree.

Maybe I'm just biased because my country (France) has a lot of gaming associations and clubs, much more than hobby shops. You just have to find one (they are everywhere, and we have internet now, no excuses), say hello and ask what games are played.

I managed to play games of "Infinity" everywhere in France, just by going on Discord/FB/Whatsapp and asking : I'm in this town for 7h, anyone wants to play some games?
It's not harder than going to your Warhammer shop and ask who's playing here.

I've yet to hear people playing "Star Wars: Legion" say : I'm afraid the game could die tomorrow.
Yet that's a big dilema for GW players: will the other game i want to try survive the next 6 months? Maybe, maybe not. WFB died, Mordheim died, Gorka Morka died, GW games aren't immune to a collapse either.