Do you feel cheated?

[HollowHills]

Specifically interested to hear from DoK and Lumineth players.

BR Morathi came out only a couple of months ago and now we are getting a DoK battletome which will presumably contain all the rules.

Lumineth only officially released in September but are now seeing the range doubled with none of those units being represented in the battletome. 

Given that many of us haven't been able to play in person for almost a year, coupled with continued price increases this seems a bit scummy to me.

[Fuxxx]

And that's why I'm not buying a broken realms morathi for my stormcast. Yes, there's still deepkin in line for a new battletome but I don't know when I'll be able to play again and until then there might be a new one...

[zilberfrid]

43 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Specifically interested to hear from DoK and Lumineth players.

BR Morathi came out only a couple of months ago and now we are getting a DoK battletome which will presumably contain all the rules.

Lumineth only officially released in September but are now seeing the range doubled with none of those units being represented in the battletome. 

Given that many of us haven't been able to play in person for almost a year, coupled with continued price increases this seems a bit scummy to me.

Do we know whether there are neccesary rules in the new BT that are not in the BR books? It could just be the DoK part of Morathi compiled with the original DoK book.

Similar for Lumineth, that could be the BR Teclis combined with the original BT.

[Enoby]

I'd call myself a Lumineth player, but I've played the army twice due to Covid. I do feel a bit cheated as, if I want to continue playing Lumineth, I'll likely need to buy a new book before I've really had the chance to use my old one. On the other hand, I do feel like the initial release was a bit sparse but they'd have had these new models at least mostly ready by the first release and I'd wish they'd have just released them all at once in one battletome (even if that meant waiting). 

I don't see why DoK players would complain about this battletome, they have the second oldest book. I can see why they may be annoyed at BR: Morathi, but there's nothing to say MR: Morathi won't work with the new battletome. It might or might not, but we can't make a call yet.

The new Lumineth stuff feels a bit like quick DLC. Obviously there are big differences (Lumineth aren't a half complete game), but I bought the battletome expecting it would be mostly up to date throughout '21 and '22. While I like the models, I'll probably give this release a miss.

[EMMachine]

I'm more a general collector (especially for the lore) so maybe I'm not your targetaudience @HollowHills but I would see it like this.

For me the announced battletomes feels a little early. GW could have done the Campaign (bringing new models with it), bring out the new edition and after that start with new battletomes. That way would have been written in an optimal way for the new Edition, not in a strange mixed state.

In case of the Daughters of Khaine we have the problem at the moment, that Updates are Split between Broken Realms Morathi and Shadow and Pain and I was wondering why they couldn't have printed the Daughters Warscrolls into Broken Realms Morathi (after both would have been in the same month in their original release). And we do not know if the changes of Broken Realms Morathi + Shadow & Pain + Endless Spells are the only changes.

In case of Lumineth Realmlords, the first Battletome felt rushed. They wanted to bring in Teclis and the Realmlords into the lore, but it was basicly too early, they maybe could have released the Lord Regend and second temple in the first book.

Their is one thing that will be interesting, and this is what date the Pitched Battle Profiles will have.

So if the releasedates are the original ones are if they are delayed as well.

To compare (month outside Brackets is the Pitched Battle date, and inside Brackets in the delayed release)

• Lumineth Realmlords was April (limited Box in May and Solorelease in September)
• Sons of Behemat was April (release in October)
• Broken Realms Morathi and Shadow & Pain were August (both Released in November).

So, will the new books have Pitched Battleprofiles of October/November and they are delayed as well, or are they closer to their official release and that way the time between releases was shorter.

Edited January 25, 2021 by EMMachine

[Aelfric]

I will sart by saying I am more a painter/collector than player; in normal times I may play once or twice a month.  Also, I don't buy a large no of model kits up front, only enough to be slightly ahead of painting by a couple of kits.  

I bought into Lumineth from the beginning and I have to say that I don't feel cheated.  It was clear from the start that there were going to be four Temples and we were only starting with models for one of them.  It was pretty clear that the other 3 Temples, with models, would be introduced over time, so I don't feel misled about the release.  Admittedly, I wasn't expecting the next release so soon, but that will now mean I won't buy a mountain spirit for a while as Fox spirit is more appealing.  They'll still be getting my money, just no faster than normal.

The initial release was enough to get a workable army with enough battleline and a decent range of models without being overwhelming, and GW gave clear indications of future releases. 

Actually, I'm quite happy with this system going forward.  Lumineth are, as far as I'm aware, the first faction where different subfactions required seperate models.  I'm not sure if this will be repeated in the future, so Lumineth may be an outlier.  If they do repeat this style, then so long as they make it as clear as they have done with Lumineth, It should be fine.

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Aelfric

[Eternalis]

As a DoK player, I do feel cheated.
I bought a book 2 months ago, that I thought would bring my army to AoS V3 and... Now a new Battletome comes out, with I guess all the rules contained in the previous Broken Realms. 
I was hoping for a V3 Battletome, with some new entries as we are one of the smallest range in the game (most of the warscrolls are just small variation of the same units) but no.  To me it looks like the Chaos Space Marines codex from the V8, the second one, with the updated warscrolls. So many changes were made these last months to our units that we needed a new Battletome, because for some reasons these changes weren't into BR:Morathi...

But I don't feel as cheated as I would feel if I was an Ironjawz player seeing all the love the Lumineths get...
Sorry for my english, I'm not a native speaker.

[Bayul]

I think it's overdramatic. A nice-to-have story expansion might be obsolete because DoK receive new rules and endless spells and the army range of LRL gets expanded shortly after its release.

 

[Enoby]

5 minutes ago, Bayul said:

army range of LRL gets expanded shortly after its release.

I think the issue is the time frame at which it got expanded - if this came out in two or three years, I can't imagine anyone would have an issue. I think people like to feel as is if their purchase will last, and for Lumineth and DoK, it seems like some of their books have become outdated very quickly. I totally get why people wouldn't mind, and I'm not particularly upset about it (not too bothered about Lumineth with the new Slaanesh release coming up), but it does rub me the wrong way. Same as some Psychic Awakenings had their rules invalidated with a 9e codex very quickly after the PA's release.

Cheated may be a bit strong of a word, but I'm not necessarily happy with it.

[LuminethMage]

I 100% agree with everything that @Aelfric and @Bayul wrote. I don’t feel cheated. I’m happy that we get new models so soon again, and this all delivered not in just a new Battletome with updated rules, but with a new whole storyline around it. I really prefer that to getting 20 or 30 kits at the initial release and then nothing for 5 years. Look at all the excitement we have here and everywhere Lumineth related. 

Is this a perfect system? No, I might have spent less on the Alarith if I had known that they come out so soon. But I like the models, I enjoy the hobby aspect. I wouldn’t mind getting a new Battletome that combines everything again with maybe a scenery piece and some new endless spells (of course getting into Tyrion's side of the LRL would be even better) not that far down the road again, especially if there is new lore coming with it. 

In that respect I’m super interested in the new DoK and Slaanesh BTs, if those pick up what happened in BR and maybe move it a little bit further. 

[Overread]

Lumineth and Slaanesh both have fairly new books, but are both getting BIG updates. Lumineth look to be getting more models than their first wave potentilaly and that's a massive thing for a brand new army that's very new. Yes its annoying that GW are updating so soon and that he battletome might be out of date (we don't actually know they are getting a new tome; only that they are getting a campaign book and a lot of new models); but these things are rare and the book is a small cost next to the huge range of additional models. 

 

Plus I've been in the hobby long enough to know that this is the exception not the norm. Most players like Fyreslayers, Idoneth, Ossiarchs etc... would be over the moon at near doubling their army range with a big roster of new awesome models. OR skaven or seraphon getting a big update to refresh old sculpts into new modern plastic designs. 

 

 

DoK are actually getting a new book with only modest updates in models, they are all great updates, just far more drip fed modest additions. If anything the only new model will be the shadowstalker AoS box and not just the warcry version of the box. It's an old tome but its stood the test of time pretty well over the years. 

 

 

Corona is a pain, but at the same time I think GW are good at pushing ahead, yes its a pain if you've got into an army in the last year and have not been able to play; but at the same time its better that GW pushes forward than sits back for a year or more. Heck we've already lost several months of releases and most people are hungry to get more rather than wanting GW to stop. Necron players who have like as not not even been able to use their new book want to get the new flayed ones etc... Heck they got new models nad had to wait 2 months of the summer (the one time that they might have got games) waiting for GW to get the codex out. 

 

 

 

I can sympathise that GW's accelerated rate of releases can be a problem for rules; but at the same time I think that so long as the acceleration comes with lots of models its a good compromise. I think if we were seeing battletomes update fast with nothing new constantly then it would be a bitter pill to swallow. 

 

 

Also as someone who likes art, lore and rules I often see the value of the books as being more than just the stats. Heck the new Morathi book didn't actually add much in the way of bulky rules to the game. One or two adjustments to warscrolls; a new way to put morathi on the table and a new alliance option. Basically less than a sheet of A4 in terms of actual updated elements. If you wanted that information you could easily read a friends book at the club and jot them down 

[Lucentia]

I do wonder how much they've had to reshuffle the release schedule around lockdowns and stuff, and how much that affected these specific examples.  Assuming that big tentpole releases like Indomitus are more locked into the calendar in advance so things have to move around them, etc.  If we were supposed to get BR Morathi much earlier in the year and the DoK battletome further months after I dont think it would feel so weird.

It does also depend a little bit on what's in the battletome, if it's a pure reprinting of the Morathi content with few other changes then that's one thing, but it could also be a major restructuring, it's hard to say at this point.

I think it's quite clear GW is testing out this alternate sort of release strategy where they're splitting armies into chunks and releasing them separately rather than releasing the one book and all the models at once every 4 years or whatever.  However if that's the plan I feel it would be better to have smaller secondary releases, a new unit box/hero every 6 months or so, otherwise you wind up with this sort of Lumineth/Slaanesh situation where it looks like only half the army is available at launch.  And to add to that, if that is a deliberate release strategy they're aiming for I'd like to see them focus more on developing their routes for rules releases so that they could, say, update digital versions of the battletomes as new stuff is added, or something.  (Which I think is part of what the 40k app is trying to do?  But then every faction is getting brand new codexes there anyway, so not quite the same.)

 

[Overread]

I think the 40K app is trying to be a method of faster rules updates, but right now its clear that GW hasn't got the skill to put it together and the app needs a huge amount of work. A simple updated PDF release of the codex is still superior to the app. 

 

I don't think GW will ever abandon codex/battletomes but I could see them pushing FAQ/Errata updates through an app; at least making updating and keeping up to date more practical esp for the "pro gamer who is more likely to focus on such products and to not want updated paperwork. 

[Talas]

I bought into Lumineth from the beginning and I agree with the others that I don't feel cheated, I'm actually kind of glad this is happening. Since I'm a very slow painter, the units I got last year will be almost ready when the new ones arrive.

Besides, I love the lore so I'd be getting the new book regardless of the rules.

[Marcvs]

I think that, when it comes to LRL, the feeling of "being cheated" depends a lot on your approach to the army : if you just bought the starting box, teclis or a few units, it's no problem, and the release of the new wave is actually good news. If you aimed at getting them on the table as soon as possible (whether or not that was actually possible) and bought 2000 pts or more and were forced to invest in multiple boxes of vanari, the arrival of new units and rules so soon can (IMHO, understandably) make you feel bad towards GW -also because we're always told that cycles of production are actually planned far ahead so they would have known of this realse when the BT went to printing.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Marcvs

[Overread]

True but at the same time now you've got options; you've got a big Vanari army to use and you can use a different army with the new releases too. This is why I always argue that battletomes should have good internal balance that allows for variation in army composition. 

Heck my Slaanesh are much the same; at some stage I will likely end up with enough seeker based units to do a full seeker only army; along with a leader only army; a motley; a mortal; a demon etc... Basically through purchasing options and choices you can fast end up with lots of varied builds. 

 

 

[woolf]

interesting topic,

tbh I kinda felt cheated in the first release, I was dead sure they would release another temple along the Alarith stuff (basically all the way up to the weeks prior to the pre-order) as it seemed like an awfully small release with only 10 scrolls and half of the heroes being unique. Also seemed so easy to just augment by another temple, getting the symmetry of two out of 4 etc. So although its a bit weird perhaps to get such a big change so soon, kinda invalidating the battle tome and forcing us to manage several sources of information, I actually feel more rectified than cheated by this... but then again I'm quite a slow painter so still working on my Vanari base troops and have not yet bought into the alarith side.. perhaps if I had already invested loads into those and it turns out I like they wind-stuff way more I would have felt differently. It does kinda come across as GW wanting to maximize chances for ppl picking up a larger part of the complete range, i.e. buying both temples as opposed to only opting in for one, as it now seems large enough that there is small chance you would ever field both temples in the same list.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

44 minutes ago, Lucentia said:

I do wonder how much they've had to reshuffle the release schedule around lockdowns and stuff, and how much that affected these specific examples.  Assuming that big tentpole releases like Indomitus are more locked into the calendar in advance so things have to move around them, etc.  If we were supposed to get BR Morathi much earlier in the year and the DoK battletome further months after I dont think it would feel so weird.

I have been thinking about this as well. I think BR: Morathi was likely delayed to begin with, and then additionally Broken Realms seems to be forced to release at a slower pace than originally intended.

It's hard to guess when Broken Realms was originally supposed to come out, but we can take some guesses from related rumour engines. Usually, there seems to be a gap from as short as one month to as long as around six between a rumour engine being teased and the model coming out. The gap for the Lord of Pain from the Shadow and Pain box was 13 months. 11 months for the Ironscale. It's not anything definitive, but I'd say these extraordinarily long gaps indicate a delay.

As for the release schedule of Broken Realms: It seems to release at about half the speed of Psychic Awakening. BR has a seen a periode of about two months between the announcement of a book and it's release. Then another two months until the announcment of the next book. Psychic Awakening, by contrast, was about one month from announcement to release, then another until the next announcement.

I can't really tell you whether that makes GWs release schedule more or less egregious, but at least it's something to consider.

 

[Clan's Cynic]

I think it was clearly a very cynical plan on GW's part. The Lumineth book was presumably at the printers long before Covid was a thing and we know model design, from their own mouth, is a long process that takes years. I find it very difficult to believe they just had the ink wet and then decided, "hey what if we just make a new Lumineth wave?" The extremely high prices and marketing campaign behind the Lumineth also suggests they knew they'd sell extremely well (High Elves were the most popular WHFB army next to Warriors of Chaos and elf-fans have not been quiet about wanting an AoS equivalent). 

GW absolutely weighed up whether to cut out half of the range and sell it down the line as part of another book. Presumably a second Lumineth book won't be far out afterwards and the defenders will say, "but that new Battletome had to happen so the new units could be compiled in one book!" Even the most popular armies usually wait years between release waves, the only real exception being Space Marines by virtue of being Space Marines and Stormcast up until 2.0's launch (which was obviously done because GW had hoped to make them as popular as their 40k cousins).

I do get the impression DoK was meant to come out later however, as the duel-release with Slaanesh seems a bit uncharacteristic (at least when it's alongside a major new release like the Slaanesh mortals) but it was still probably less than a year out. I think most people expected Morathi to be a 'stopgap' between now and 3.0's Battletome and bought it with that assumption in mind. Within a year? Yeah maybe, but less than half of one? I'd have been very interested to see how many DoK players would've bought Morathi if they knew the new Battletome was coming out in four/five months. And before somebody says, "But what about the LORE?" Well, how many Ossiarch players bought Wrath of the Everchosen when it was confirmed they'd not get any new rules in it?

With games like Flames of War having stop-gap books and then replacement books pretty close together isn't too bad because they 'only' cost around £10 (and hardback at that), but £25 for something you get a few months out of is not pocket change to most people, no matter how many middle-aged guys working in IT claim otherwise.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2021 by Clan's Cynic

[OkayestDM]

I don't feel cheated about the Lumineth. I'm delighted!

1. It's really soon after the release:    True, but I'd already collected all of the units I intended to have from the initial wave, and the fact that I can now expand into the next wave is exciting to me. I'm as much a collector as I am a player, and having options for what I put on the table is important to me, so this makes me happy.

2. The battletome and probably BR book will be made obsolete:     Sure. That was going to happen anyway though. Granted, this is sooner than anticipated, but I'm not that fussed by it. After the flurry of battletome updates 2 years ago, I assumed we were going to see a new edition, followed by another round of battletome updates.  We've already gone longer than I anticipated in that regard, and it looks like they're planning to expand model ranges to go along with the next round of tomes. To my mind, that's the best case scenario that we could have expected from a company that needs to ensure it has a steady stream of revenue.  Psychic Awakening was "invalidated" by release of the new 40k edition, I did not expect more from Broken Realms. Rather, I have been pleasantly surprised by how well-received the story and lore progression seems to be. So much so, in fact, that I changed my mind and have actually decided to pick them up as a collector's item, even knowing that the rules in them will be bundled into a new battletome, changed, or done away with later.

3. All this and we've barely been able to play:    I've got a friend I work with that I got into the hobby. We both have a casual approach to the hobby and try to get together a few times a month for a game. It's enough to scratch the itch. If that wasn't an option, I'd just play against myself, or set up some sort of A.I. ruleset to govern the "opponent's" actions. In all honesty, the hobby part itself has been a great way to relax and de-stress with all the craziness going on these past few years.

4. Yeah, well I'm not happy about it!:    That's fair. I don't tend to get fussed by things like I used to anymore, but that doesn't invalidate other people's frustration. This hobby means different things to different people. For me, it's become a creative and artistic outlet, gratifying my desire  to assemble things and then letting me splash pretty colors on them (and frequently feel very good about the results.) On top of that, I enjoy playing the game too! I'm aware that GW by it's very nature is a company intent on getting us to throw money at it, and I accepted that fact and all that came along with it when I joined the hobby and decided to invest in multiple armies.

Edited January 25, 2021 by OkayestDM

[Doko]

I feel that i gonna be citized for this.

But i never buy rules from gw and i just download and print them. So i wont feel cheated with the infinite print errors,faq,and things as this.

Im sorry but i feel that the gw miniatures are overprizeds(a box of 10 minis for 45€ when other companys charge as 20) so i think im paying for the rules when i buy the miniatures boxes allready.

But i agree with people that gonna be cheated after buy a tome as lumineths and only some momths after get as 50% new units that arent there

Edited January 25, 2021 by Doko

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

11 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

GW absolutely weighed up whether to cut out half of the range and sell it down the line as part of another book. Presumably a second Lumineth book won't be far out afterwards and the defenders will say, "but that new Battletome had to happen so the new units could be compiled in one book!" Even the most popular armies usually wait years between release waves, the only real exception being Space Marines by virtue of being Space Marines and Stormcast up until 2.0's launch (which was obviously done because GW had hoped to make them as popular as their 40k cousins).

I agree with you that the release timing for Lumineth wave 2 must be deliberate. I think that should be fairly uncontroversial given the time we know it takes to get models designed and produced, as well as books printed. It's not possible that they released Lumineth, then looked at their sales numbers or whatever and decided to give them a second wave of models. There is just not enough time of this to happen, especially given COVID delays.

However, I disagree that the choice GW had was between releasing all of LRL at once, or splitting the line and releasing half of it about a year later. Given what I have  just said above about the lead up these things take, I would guess their choice was between releasing LRL in the split fashion we are seeing, or all at once but later. I don't have any insight into GW production time and logistics, but I would be surprised if they can produce, store and ship a release of 10 kits exactly as fast as one of 20.

If this is right, I would personally prefer a small release and quick update after a year over a big release that comes substantially later. But then again, I did not buy into Lumineth yet, and this is partially because I did not yet see a list from just the first wave units that I would be excited enough to build.

[Clan's Cynic]

2 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

However, I disagree that the choice GW had was between releasing all of LRL at once, or splitting the line and releasing half of it about a year later. Given what I have  just said above about the lead up these things take, I would guess their choice was between releasing LRL in the split fashion we are seeing, or all at once but later. I don't have any insight into GW production time and logistics, but I would be surprised if they can produce, store and ship a release of 10 kits exactly as fast as one of 20.

There's no reason they couldn't have included the rules and photographs in the Battletome and then release it later. They're doing this with Space Marines and Necrons who six months on are only just getting the Primaris Landspeeder and such, the Heavy Intercessors are coming out as part of a box set, etc. The Death Guard didn't get the Blight-hauler released for a good few months and the Lord of the Rings line used to have loads of stuff that took ages to actually see a physical release. Hell, the Vampire Lord was leaked as a clampack ready for distribution and they're probably not landing for at least another six months so these things presumably spend a long time in storage.

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

There's no reason they couldn't have included the rules and photographs in the Battletome and then release it later. They're doing this with Space Marines and Necrons who six months on are only just getting the Primaris Landspeeder and such, the Heavy Intercessors are coming out as part of a box set, etc. The Death Guard didn't get the Blight-hauler released for a good few months and the Lord of the Rings line used to have loads of stuff that took ages to actually see a physical release. Hell, the Vampire Lord was leaked as a clampack ready for distribution and they're probably not landing for at least another six months so these things presumably spend a long time in storage.

I don't disagree. Although releasing rules without models is unfortunate in it's own way.

However, this is also where I wish I knew more about the logistics involved. If someone told me that that Vampire Lord might be all done and packaged, but to get everything else in Soulblight Gravelords done and shipped will take another six months, I would not be surprised.

[Bayul]

38 minutes ago, Clan's Cynic said:

I think it was clearly a very cynical plan on GW's part. [...]

And now this thread drifts into cui bono fallacies. It's obvious that the release shedule is negatively affected be the plague, but it doesn't mean that GW conspires against their customers.