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LuminethMage last won the day on March 21

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Lord Celestant

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  1. I didn't mean to be disrespectful. It's just you have all these complains here on the forum about this and that, and it's often a bit hyperbolic, and also often turns out to not be wholly true in the end. I also didn't say only wining tournament lists count for what is OP. That whole argument feels more like a straw man, personal attack from your side. It's just that we have no useful data about anything besides tournaments. So I can't say something like "it's not even used in most successful local lists", because I don't have any idea how common Cogs are taken worldwide on a club/fun level. I only have tournament data as a reference, that's the reason why I use it. Cogs are good, especially for some armies like LRL. No doubt about that. But, as I mentioned, I play often with them, and it's mostly a T1 thing, you get a lot of gas out of that, and frankly it's also fun to do all those spells, besides how useful it is in the end (often there is a limit anyway on what you can do in T1, but it's still fun for an army like LRL). As soon as you have to move, the value of Cogs lessens. The range is pretty short, small Wizards tend to get taken out etc. Yes, you can dispel them by yourself, and risk not getting them cast again where you need them. There is a trade-off, if you can't get it cast, you can't cast something else instead. Saying there is no downside because otherwise you Especially if you are not talking about tournament lists, I don't see anyone being then super good about planing all their movements, spells etc., to maximize the use of Cogs (not forgetting to dispel them in the previous turn), and it therefore being super OP all the time. I also think 45 points is too low for what it does, but I still think it's not that big of deal in most armies and lists. Lifeswarm is only a bit more expensive and in my view at least as powerful as Cogs, but there isn't a big uproar about that, likely because it's useful for more armies, so more people can use it. Whereas Cogs does more for only a few armies, and I think some of the OP talk stems from that, because people think it's unfair that others get that kind of thing. Which could be valid, but is different from being super OP. And I think your last sentence is wrong for many armies. That's why you do not see Cogs that much in tournaments. If it was true that nothing in AoS comes even remotely close in therms of battlefield effectiveness for 45 points, you would see Cogs in almost every winning tournament lists. Statements like that are exactly what I mean. You probably could say that for Tzeentch and a few other lists, but that doesn't mean it's generally super OP.
  2. Why some people say they are overpowered: A lot of reasons. When the LRL came out, many of the reviewers said that they are OP (without having any experience themselves at that point), because their rules look powerful. Not many people actually could play with or against them when they came out because of Covid. So that stuck, even though they didn't win many tournaments or had a high win rate in 2nd. LRL also play somewhat differently to other armies, because they have a lot of control elements, and very good focused damage, and it looks like people were struggling a bit in local clubs. And then, most of their units have better stats than what comparable units especially of older books have (like Cities for example). They aren't as good as fully buffed units of those books, even when they are buffed, but are all good on their own, and really flexible (because of aetherquartz and spells), so you often have an answer to what your opponent does. LRL were probably a bit too cheap when they first came out. I think lately all the OP talk has ebbed a bit (funnily while their win rate has gone up), but LRL are a good army. Definitely in the upper tier, and are difficult to play against for some armies (which rely on smaller buff units for example, or have a lot of key abilities in spells, which Teclis can just deny). Units that are considered the most OP are usually the Sentinels, because they can basically shoot at anything within a 30" (or 36" if you include movement) range. You can't hide and the main damage output is via mortals, so most units have no or minimal defense against that. This is especially powerful when you can cast "Lambent Light" on a target, which lets you re-roll all hits. Then you can really fish for the 5+ MW. My guess is if GW ever thinks LRL are too strong, that's where changes would happen. If you start out with LRL and play locally, maybe stick to 20 Sentinels at first. 20 can still do good work, but aren't going to be super obnoxious for your opponent. If everyone has very good lists, then you can increase them. Teclis was considered OP, but I think that largely has died down as a topic. He can be really hard for some armies, because of his cast denies and spells. But we hear much more about other monster heroes right now, because he is relatively easy to kill (in comparison to other god units). Fox lists can be OP against melee-centric lists. If you can play well, pure melee lists will have trouble doing anything against you. If you mostly play locally with friends/in a club, I'd advice against using many Foxes (one or two in a list should be ok). We haven't seen many lists doing well that just mix Alarith and Hurakan, although theoretically that should be ok. You might be lacking MW though, depends what you are playing against locally. Most people mix one or the other with Vanari/Scinari. The problem with Alarith/Hurakan lists is, there is no subfaction which helps both. It's probably not feasible to have Teclis, Sevireth and Avalenor in one list. You could maybe just add your 30 Wardens battle line and that's it. Could be fun though. I haven't seen anyone doing that. If you have Teclis and want to go fast to 2,000 while focusing on not Vanari, you could do something like this: (Ymetrica) Teclis, Stonemage, Avalenor, 3 x 5 Stoneguard, 20 Sentinels. You could also include your Dawnriders and Loreseeker of course, if you get some Warden (then don't play Ymetrica and lose the Stoneguards). Or use the Spirit of the Mountain instead of Avalenor and add Endless Spells. And you can do a similar thing with Hurakan, but maybe that's more complicated to play at first. Alarith are pretty straight forward for your opponent, as they are melee focused. One thing - Alarith are pretty expensive, so if costs are an issue, with what you have have it would be cheaper to first focus on Vanari to get to 2,000. Hope that helps.
  3. Idoneth don't do well in 3.0? That's surprising. They have been good for so long and the updates during Broken Realms also looked strong. But you are right, I don't remember seeing many Idoneth lists in tournaments doing well. Just hadn't really thought about it. What's the problem? LRL are fun to play, lots of choices and play styles, but of course they can also always be hit with a nerf bat. Right now, they are doing good, yeah. You see basically all the subsections in tournament rankings, and also different lists (although it looks like in terms of tournaments, the trend is towards Teclis lists again).
  4. Is it fair to call something super OP, because it's great for one faction, and good for a few others? Most of the successful tournament LRL lists don't even have Cogs. I use Cogs all the time, it's great for my lists, but I don't play anything close to a competitive tournament list. I expect it to go up on points because it seems to be too good for how cheap it is, but besides Tzeentch, is this thing such a big deal? It's relatively easy to get rid of and can't move.
  5. So all the units in the box are good. Warden are probably our best unit, Eltharion is a great model, awesome in smaller battles and still quite good in larger ones. Dawnriders are also really useful. Normally, you'd go from there to 1,000 by buying a Cathallar (she provides some of our core interactions if you play with Vanari/Scinari), another 10 Warden and 10 Sentinels. That brings you to just under 1,000 points. If you have Endless Spells already you could throw in a Burning Head or something for good measure. In your case, you could experiment with using your Namarti bows instead of Sentinels for example. Then you'd have less to buy. Generally speaking in terms of LRL, (almost) all units are viable even in competitive play. So what you buy after 1,000 really depends. Most of us play with a core of around 30 Warden and 30 Sentinels (some use 10 more or less of either). And then either add Teclis and one or max two 5/6 W heroes a group of Dawnrider and/or Bladelords. If you play without Teclis then you can add more of all of those. Or you can play with one of the Temples, then you buy a group of either Alarith or Hurakan units and mix them together with normally Warden and Sentinels. In case of Alarith maybe instead of Warden with Dawnriders. And you have a version for that with and without Teclis again. You can also just throw in one or two of the Spirits (either Alarith or Hurakan) into a largely Vanari/Scinari-based army. It's really up to what playstyle you like. In terms of Idoneth - it depends a bit again. The turtle is probably better than any of the LRL monsters right now, so that's definitely a candidate to try out. If you go for a more control-based list (with Hurakan units for example), net sharks should be good too. And you could always try to use Namarti in a LRL list. LRL don't have priests, so that might also work. I haven't seen many tournament lists though which do that, besides at the end of the 2nd Ed, where people were experimenting with Sharks in Hurukan lists. Returning to the box. The extras are also really nice. The combat gauge and dice etc. I still use the spell and ability cards, although they are incomplete now. Still a lot of the key abilities are there.
  6. Sorry, it's just really hard to say with GW. We didn't an FAQ with all the rest last week, so you could wait a few more days and see if there is still something coming for LRL. Then normally there is a Winter FAQ, but we don't know if there is one this year. It's just all 🤷‍♂️
  7. I don’t think anyone can tell you that. It’s a possibility, but they could be still good afterwards. If you look at successful list right now, by now means all of them are based on Wind Spirits. But for some factions, they are very difficult to counter, and prevent interactivity if played well. So GW might think they should change that. On the other hand, SoB aren’t fun either for several factions and they just buffed them in the new WD. The new battletomes could bring a lot of changes too which could have an effect. As long as you don’t find someone with insider information, it’s all just guesswork.
  8. The funny thing is that right now in LRL, both Aetherquartz and "Lightning Reactions" (double activation) work for the turtle. LRL's abilities are one of the very few that do not say their abilities are limited to Lumineth Realm-lords keyword units. It's a bit janky of course, and probably will get fixed once people start doing it, but if someone happens to own both right now, the turtle is probably the best Monster unit LRL can field : ). Turtle with AQ, All out Defense and a Mystic Shield : ). And Protection of Hysh/Teclis, Lifeswarm : ) Here is what both abilities say: AQ Each unit in a Lumineth Realmlords army starts the battle with 1 aetherquartz reserve. Once per phase, you can say that 1 unit will use its aetherquartz reserve to use 1 of the following aetherquartz reserve abilities. However, if you do so, subtract 1 from that unit’s Bravery characteristic for the rest of the battle. Lightning Reactions During the combat phase, when it is your turn to pick a unit to fight, you can pick 2 eligible units instead of 1. If you do so, each of those units can fight one after the other in the order of your choice. But even without using those the turtle is pretty good in LRL I think. Some people have been using it already, and seems to work quite well. Some people have used the Gargant with Teclis and worked well for them. You could give it a shot. I've been using both Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain, and both are good. If you are not trying to build a super competitive list (and even then they might be good) you can use them for sure. 3+ Save in LRL is pretty awesome. You can add Mystic Shield, make them Etherial in the worst case (like when they fight something like Vhordrai), have Speed of Hysh, Lifeswarm.
  9. My first reply to the OP was more of a joke, not meant totally serious, but yes I think LRL weren't OP in 2nd Ed (might have changed in 3rd, if they stay at a 60+% win rate for a prolonged time, then they might actually be and GW should do something about it ). I understand where you and several others who make similar points (tournaments aren't casual play, something can be not OP in aggregated data, but still be a problem in casual games) are coming from. I think it can be true, I can't wholly agree though. If you do not have real data - and complains on internet forums or personal experience at a local level aren't - you can't really balance around it. There is too much subjectivity to these things. Tournament data has to become better though. It's still often not granular enough (does a faction have a 50% win-rate because of many 3:2 and 2:3 games or many 5:0 and 0:5 games, subsections specific etc.) For example, I'm pretty involved in LRL forums, discords, reddit etc., and you can see really everything: From LRL players who lose almost all their games and ask what's wrong with the faction, to others who think LRL are too strong and feel bad about winning so much against their friends, to people who bought the army and can't find someone to play against even though no one has played one game against LRL in their group, to people like myself who don't have that problem at all. Same thing for remedies: Like your example with Sunmetal Weapons. Lumineth don't do a whole lot of damage outside of their MW. They do not have many damaging spells, nor a lot of other MW output. Nor do they have units which you can buff up to do great damage. Your unbuffed Sunmetal weapon does a MW on a 6 to hit. This isn't something totally outstanding in AoS. You can use a spell (and spell casting is fickle in most cases) to buff this to a 5+, which then becomes pretty outstanding, but that's really the main way how LRL do damage. But it's still not an incomparable MW output in comparison to many other armies. Other armies can achieve similar numbers (just often not as consistent over a game) in most cases, that's one of the strengths of LRL. And I think the more battletomes are updated the more you'll see this (increase in MW output). I think what you meant - and what is probably the most common complaint about LRL is Sunmetal Weapons on Sentinels which ignore line-of-sight. These are part of the scalpel though - as long as you do not have a huge number of them, and can cast Lambent Light on your target - the damage output isn't great, but you can focus it very well. It does sucks for people because it's almost unavoidable. I 100% understand that. And maybe it was a bad idea to make such a unit. But right now, it seems LRL are pretty much balanced around it sadly. It's really difficult to play without Sentinels against almost all opponents (especially in 3rd). Maybe they can make them even more expensive to avoid spamming them or do away with the "ignore LOS" aspect in the a future Battletome. I'd be ok with that. But from my experience, this wouldn't reduce the complains about LRL much or at all. It would just move the goal post again towards the next thing: For example Wind Spirts, or Teclis (which also a lot of people complain about), or their spells in general. There are just a lot of people who do not like LRL. Part of it seems to be "elves", part might be the timing when they came out at the start of Covid where not everyone was in a good shape (and crucially couldn't play), part is because they are more of a tricky control army. I don't think there is a magic button which would change things, as a LRL player all you can hope is that GW doesn't just remove most of the things which made the army interesting in the next update. That's what I'm mainly concerned about. It's a fun army to play, with many options and good internal balance. And often when GW updates books that were deemed to be or really too strong, or not liked, they just turn out to be bad (as in not fun). Case in point: It's also not fun to play against 30 horrors, or SoB just walking on objective T1 and that's the whole game, or playing against Beastclaw Raiders when you do not know how they function (have a look at how many BCR 2nd ed battlereports were over at top of T1 because some poor guy did a mistake with their set-up), or Blood Stalkers, or KO where you might not have more than one or two real combats over the whole game, or a multitude of other units which have a similar MW output, but do not come up as a problem all the time. Or what was the biggest issue here on the forum when the rules for 3rd were announced, but no one had a single game played? Sentinels using Unleash Hell. And while that certainly is strong, if you look at the competitive scene (and likely also not in causal games, I don't think Archaon is easy to handle for your average gamer) - it's not what's actually the main problem - it's 3+ save monster heroes, which almost no one was talking about at that time. There are just a lot of people predisposed to not liking LRL. Some people might change their mind of course, but I think it's better if GW generally tries to balance the game around tournament data, than what people might think based on their own experience or internet talk. That said, I also agree partly with you (and many others): LRL are strong in casual games, especially against people who have no experience playing against them. They don't play like most other armies, and their basic stats are good across the board (it's hard to build a bad list for casual games). I definitely felt that when I played against my CoS and SBL friends. I think though, that that has been reduced somewhat in 3rd ed, and part of it is just the paper/stone/scissors nature of AoS, and again not different from many other armies, where this topic just doesn't come up that often. Sorry about the sermon.
  10. DoK favoritism! : ) - Sounds like you had a proper good Skaven time there 👍
  11. Awesome. That's how it should be done locally (and also how I think it's solved most of the time). I don't play with Teclis, except against people who ask me too for example - because I know many people don't like playing against Teclis. If someone wants to play against a more melee focused list, I'll bring our Mountains and some Stoneguard. I haven't had any complains about the fun level of the army so far. I mean it's not like everyone thinks Total Eclipse is the most fun ability ever, or getting your heroes shot by Sentinels is the best feeling (that's why I bring max 20). But we still have fun, exciting games most of the time. Especially in 3rd Ed. And "Fun" is subjective, and I hear both on the LRL discussion boards. Some people have absolutely no problems at all locally, some do like in your group. I think it also has something to do with people already expecting a not fun experience because they have heard a lot about LRL being not fun. Doesn't matter in the end of course. I just think the take that they should change successful battletomes (both Seraphon and LRL players like how their armies play and have attracted a lot of players as far as I can tell) is not a good proposition. It's easy to get likes with that kind of post, but I think it's not better for the game in the end. You also often see tons of posts from players who say they'd quit after something like with the new Slaanesh battletome happens. That's why I think it's better to uplift the bad books than make what are good books worse (except for obvious OP combinations that should be reigned in). Anyway, awesome that you found a good solution for all of you 😃
  12. Did the teams at least have the decency to properly self-destruct afterwards? #rollmore1s I sadly haven't had a chance to play against Skaven yet, but hopefully soon : )
  13. Nope, people are just choosing what they want to complain about. There were at least as much "they are so OP" posts as there are about the fun level. Agreed with the rest though, hopefully we get some good updates for the battletomes that are not doing well right now, soon : )
  14. What did they play? What lists? You have someone leaving after they lost one match against a LRL/Seraphon player with what? There are a lot of battletomes which can compete with both of those. This seems a bit weird, not saying it's impossible to happen - like I said we also had people quit because of all the negativity they are encountering. But it doesn't mean it's prevalent, nor that's it's a net-negative effect. Nor that it's a problem of "high powered" battletomes over a prolbem "low powered" ones. Why make a problem out of the battletomes which have fun rules and good internal balance? The problem are the battletomes which aren't doing that. They should have less battletomes with boring rules, bad internal balance and funky stuff that doesn't work well.
  15. Finally LRL achieving win-rates which fit with the level of complains : ) . Some of your friends who sold all their LRL might start to regret that 😜 Thanks for the effort collecting all the data!
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