The Rumour Thread

[Mattrulesok]

7 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

I think it's about time to consider online rules instead of traditional battletomes.

I know that these paper battletomes have their own charm. I really love them. Currently I have like 7 or 8. But then it's really disappointing to wait like 2-3 years for a faction to get updated, either buffed or nerfed. Kharadron Overlords or Sylvaneth players should understand this perfectly, when their armies where mostly unplayable for a long time. I think Seraphon and Lumineth players also understand that being "that guy" in the group is not fun either (some do however...). Now if we had online rules any underpowered or overpowered unit could be fixed within days. Then again people spend a lot of money on their minis and want to feel stable with their purchase for a while. Tough decisions...

The funny thing is I'd be much happier to buy a collectors style book for my factions that was just artwork, lore painting guides etc. You know, the stuff they already put in battletomes to pad them out. It's the addition of the rules that makes them feel like a bad purchase because you know they will be invalidated in the future. 

As for feeling stable with your purchase, fixing some rules won't throw out anything too badly because you would only be fixing the broken units and if you spend $500 on models because they are broken and an auto win then too bad. 

 

[Yondaime]

47 minutes ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Honest Wargamer has suggested there are two rules writers, one is called the 'sin guy' (i.e. lumineth, seraphon, tzeentch) and the other is called 'bin guy' (slaanesh, sons of behemet, sylvaneth).

I like that a lot better than naming the rules writers directly. I remember back in 5th edition 40k where Matt Ward was getting absolutely torn apart by the community. Wasn't pretty.

From what I've seen so far, gravelords looks like a 'bin' writer book

Tbf the only real reason lumineth are so strong are sentinels, a totally wrong unit that shouldnt exist, the rest is pretty balanced and fair

 

i wouldnt put them in the same floor as ko/seraphon and tzeecht, they are competly on an other level

 

[Yoid]

The next GH is gonna be crazy, now that we have points that end on 5s a massive change to all unit costs is almost guaranteed. If they are really toning down point costs and units sizes in 3.0 we may expect a lot of game-changing meta-shifting adjustments. Some warscrolls may have their points changed based on the new core mechanics of 3.0 that increase or reduce their raw power.

I hope the usual losers (BoC, Sylvaneth, Slaanesh) get some new boost. The thing is Sylvaneth and Slaanesh gonna get more rules in Kragnos too, this dosn't fix the whole range, but is a good start.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Yoid

[Yondaime]

18 minutes ago, Bluesummers said:

Well guys plz enlighten me... i am looking at some leaks for soulblights and reading the Mannfred warscroll under his Command Ability it says "You can use this command ability once per turn in your hero phase.".

Does this means we get alternate phases? Or you can use the ability on your opponents turn somehow (given the once per turn restriction)? Maybe it's just a restriction for not spamming the ability but badly worded?

(Hope this doesn't break any rules on posting)

tbh its not the first time a command ability is worded like that, and reading its effect it makes sense, used 2 times is insanely broken

[Yondaime]

Just now, Yoid said:

The next GH is gonna be crazy, now that we have points that end on 5s a massive change to all unit costs is almost guaranteed. If they are really toning down point costs and units sizes in 3.0 we may expect a lot of game-changing meta-shifting adjustments. Some warscrolls may have their points changed based on the new core mechanics of 3.0 that increase or reduce their raw power.

I hope the usual loosers (BoC, Sylvaneth, Slaanesh) get some new boost. The thing is Sylvaneth and Slaanesh gonna get more rules in Kragnos too, this dosn't fix the whole range, but is a good start.

i really hope so, the meta is pretty stale atm and i'd like a really big shake

[Heijoshin]

Those Nagash points though...

Well, at least i'm already half way through a 2k point Gravelords army!

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Heijoshin

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, CarkFish said:

Please no..... This si why im refusing to buy any models untill I've been through the book myself.... I'm in the market for a new army..... but.... I cant afford to spend my hobby pounds on trash rules .... No matter how much I like the models

I'm really on the fence with this book. The recent trend of releasing, deliberately and with foreknowledge, of incomplete Battletomes really has me gunshy about getting the vampire book. It would really irk me to buy a $40 book now (let alone the limited version) only to see a completed version come out in a year or under. Add to it the issue of it being what we might think of as a transition/end of cycle/serving two masters book, and I think it's likely the book will have more than a few difficulties surviving long at all.

I used to click buy on the book (including limited editions of armies I consider primary forces for me - like anything undead), scrolls, and a minimum of one of all new kits (often much, much more) for any army I have even a tiny inclination to play. Now, with my confidence eroded concerning the lifespan of books and scrolls, I find I'm likely to hold off almost entirely on a new army range until later. In other words, GW's plan to sell me a book and scrolls twice in a short span, doubling those sales from about $75 to about $150, has likely resulted in their loss of $1000+ sales for an indeterminate amount of time, perhaps even permanently as my interest could easily wane as I await their release of the "actual" Battletome and scrolls.

Add the Cursed City debacle (and nearly complete lack of communication on that issue) and my once mostly unshakable faith in sight unseen purchases is pretty much shot.

In the case of this army, I'm really only likely to get a model or two to paint initially, if that.

Stinks, really, as I would love to sink my teeth into this range, but it's just too tough to ignore the recent trend.

 

That said, I encourage everyone else to buy, buy, buy. My GW share value has enjoyed a long run of tremendous growth. Please help keep that going!

 

 

[sandlemad]

2 hours ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Honest Wargamer has suggested there are two rules writers, one is called the 'sin guy' (i.e. lumineth, seraphon, tzeentch) and the other is called 'bin guy' (slaanesh, sons of behemet, sylvaneth).

I like that a lot better than naming the rules writers directly. I remember back in 5th edition 40k where Matt Ward was getting absolutely torn apart by the community. Wasn't pretty.

From what I've seen so far, gravelords looks like a 'bin' writer book

Tbh that this idea has gained so much traction speaks to the wargaming community's need to make everything extremely personal and frankly seems like the exact same phenomenon as the rage at Matt Ward, just with a figleaf of acceptability in the form of these sin/bin pseudonyms. It's still trying to tie issues with rules writing to individuals rather than structures or processes within GW itself and it always seems a hair's breath away from gross gamer behaviour. You can even see it in this thread.

GW's not your friend and deserves pretty much all the criticism they get for their many awful business practices but there's no need to, as the saying goes, make up a guy to get mad at.

That's all completely separate from the actual phenomenon of some battle tomes coming off as good or bad, or flavourful/exciting/powerful vs uninteresting/weak/missing obvious moves, or where they are on that axis chart that was getting shared around. I get the impression that SBGL are a pretty poor offering compared to what might have been but despite that it's hitting on what I think is a pretty unpleasant trend in how folks engage with the books and writers.

Edited May 13, 2021 by sandlemad

[Incineroar87]

Really hoping the 3.0 Stormcast Battletome isn't done by this bin writer lol 

Regarding the state of Soulblight, it's not about the competitive viability seems to be a massive disconnect between the flavor and lore of some of the units and characters, so many things got nerfed so hard or there's 0 reason to take X.   There's some hidden gems mind you, Kastelai, Avengorii and Vyrkos have some really interesting stuff to build around.

[Sleboda]

1 hour ago, Aeryenn said:

In my AoS playing group we joke that rules writers should have their name written down on the front page so we could know what kind of power level to expect.

Agreed. After the botched Tomb Kings and, I believe, Tyranid books from Robin Cruddace, I recalibrated my expectations of quality for anything to which he was attached. Nothing personal against the human himself, but his lack of skill in creating rules at that point really soured my opinion of anything with his name on it.

It would be nice to know who the lead designer on an army is in order to help decide what, of anything, to purchase for that army. Hmm, maybe that's why they don't tell us!

 

[Nezzhil]

2 hours ago, Enoby said:

Others who have seen the full battletome leaked agree that it's very similar to the Slaanesh tome, with weaker allegiance abilities than LoN and rather plain Warscrolls. The only thing they have over Slaanesh is the points costs

I have a feeling there's movement from one of the ruleswriters to tone down books in AoS 3, but unfortunately they're not being very clear about it and it doesn't quite balance out with AoS 2 battletomes. 

It is not as bad as Slaanesh, it reminds me more of the new DoK book. It is a very hard book to dominate with Dynasties like Avengorii with very powerful synergies if you dig a little.

[Chikout]

The thing about the bin and sin writers is that there are actually 3 writers. Each of them have written both sin and bin books. Also the majority of books are firmly middle of the road. 

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Jagged Red Lines said:

Honest Wargamer has suggested there are two rules writers, one is called the 'sin guy' (i.e. lumineth, seraphon, tzeentch) and the other is called 'bin guy' (slaanesh, sons of behemet, sylvaneth).

I like that a lot better than naming the rules writers directly. I remember back in 5th edition 40k where Matt Ward was getting absolutely torn apart by the community. Wasn't pretty.

From what I've seen so far, gravelords looks like a 'bin' writer book

I generally like the "bin" books better than the "sin" ones.

"Bin" is more balanced across the tome (I think), while the things that make a book "sin" are quite concentrated. See Warp Lightning in a bottle for instance. This limits Kharadron to such an extent that you don't see the other fun things they can do. Similar with old Slaanesh.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ MOD HAT ON +++
Just a nudge - can we try not to make it personal about who wrote what book and using terms like “Bin” and “Sin”. Whilst GW are a company that produces products, there are still actual people who write, design and create the things we enjoy. Using insulting comments like these aren’t great and generally stop the Studio wanting to interact with us. So if you don’t like something, that’s fine but be constructive and not insulting!

[SorryLizard]

I'd love a move to digital rules and then having separate 'faction books' that are for people who love that faction. Filled with lore and art and stories and painting guides and conversion tricks and so on. But no rules. Explicitly no rules.

Something like Infinity with Corvus Belli have all their rules and factions stuff online for free for anyone to just look at.

By desynching rules releases from model releases they are also able to have a model schedule that is much more equitable for every faction. Basically every player can expect to get something new for their army every 3 months (unless you play Tohaa...) or so because as a company they can just release a model when its ready as rules support is already out there or super easy to provide by updating the web app.

[KingBrodd]

What we should really be focusing on is that with the recent releases of Lumineth, Slaneesh and now Soulblight Gravelords... the Mawtribes hunger. 

[KingBrodd]

2 minutes ago, SorryLizard said:

I'd love a move to digital rules and then having separate 'faction books' that are for people who love that faction. Filled with lore and art and stories and painting guides and conversion tricks and so on. But no rules. Explicitly no rules.

Something like Infinity with Corvus Belli have all their rules and factions stuff online for free for anyone to just look at.

By desynching rules releases from model releases they are also able to have a model schedule that is much more equitable for every faction. Basically every player can expect to get something new for their army every 3 months (unless you play Tohaa...) or so because as a company they can just release a model when its ready as rules support is already out there or super easy to provide by updating the web app.

This. I'm not a gamer so purely a hobbyist and lore lover, once I read a Battletome or BR or even the Core Books lore and hobby sections I'm pretty much done. Luckily recently with BR the lore side is the vast majority of the book.

[Sleboda]

Ha! I just pretty much got confirmation that the new vampire book is a rush job/goof/placeholder. Earlier I said I was on the fence about buying it since I'm expecting it to be shoddy or quickly (relatively) replaced. In the time since then, I've seen a photo of a rule that almost certainly can't work.

Without going into detail, it says you spend a command point in the hero phase to grant a boost to a unit's close combat attacks. This boost lasts ... wait for it ... until the end of that hero phase. So, you know, before you even reach the upcoming combat phase where you make the (no longer boosted) attacks. Lol!

Is there maybe some extreme fringe case where somehow, some way the target of the command ability can fight in the hero phase? Sure. Maybe. But come on. Are you really investing in the model and its command point expenditure on a fringe (at best!) use?

If that's the quality of the rules writing in the book, it's a hard pass. No more fence sitting on this one for me.

 

SMH.

[Overread]

I think the power of the Codex/Battletome is very precisely that they are combined products. 

The idea is very simple, with a single essential purchase to play, the customer gets art, photos, lore, rules, painting all in one bundle. Yes the painting is a little short, but its designed as a taste. The idea is that its a scatter shot product that aims to please each individual need on its own. 

That's a powerful thing when you put it into the hands of someone new to an army. They might be new but an established GW customer or someone totally brand new to wargaming. The idea is that they get an introduction to everything and because its an "essential purchase" they are guaranteed to be exposed to it all.

 

 

As soon as you disconnect fluff and rules what tends to happen is that the fluff steps back more and more. Because its always an optional purchase and people will generally lean toward getting rules and models first. As soon as you disconnect and start to try and appease each segment on its own purely, the art and lore side suffers significantly. PP did this and went full digital with their rules and the result is their fluff side has done so badly since that they've basically shut it down.

Infinity actually pairs fluff a LOT with their products by producing limited edition models sold with graphic novels; by selling limited edition models with rule and fluff books and by having rule and fluff expansions. Yes they've an app and fully online rules - they provide for that market. However they also still approach the combined product system. 

 

Even with combined products the fluff and art side still sells way less. Ask yourself how many people at the club and group regularly read BL novels or buy into them. Heck I was gaming for over a decade before I read any. 

The story and art behind armies is often what helps us retain a connection to them and an interest. Yes the big rule book is impractical and needs a side (later) printing in smaller format for practical sake; yes a working app is neat; yes digital online free rules are great; but at the same time combined products are powerful. And sure after you've supported a single army for 20 years the lore might be a bit repetative and you might only have 1 or 2 new models and bits of story in there that's fresh. That said looking back at my Tyranid Codex I've seen the lore go from basically a few pages and a few little quotations to fully half the book - to tens of pages of stories, unit descriptions and more. 

[JackStreicher]

Interesting note:

The SBGL Allegiance Abilities forbid to use Mercenaries if one fields Nagash.

Might this be a hint at 3.0?


Imo the worst thing the designers can do to a book is bland warscrolls. Well...

Edited May 13, 2021 by JackStreicher

[KingBrodd]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

I think the power of the Codex/Battletome is very precisely that they are combined products. 

The idea is very simple, with a single essential purchase to play, the customer gets art, photos, lore, rules, painting all in one bundle. Yes the painting is a little short, but its designed as a taste. The idea is that its a scatter shot product that aims to please each individual need on its own. 

That's a powerful thing when you put it into the hands of someone new to an army. They might be new but an established GW customer or someone totally brand new to wargaming. The idea is that they get an introduction to everything and because its an "essential purchase" they are guaranteed to be exposed to it all.

 

 

As soon as you disconnect fluff and rules what tends to happen is that the fluff steps back more and more. Because its always an optional purchase and people will generally lean toward getting rules and models first. As soon as you disconnect and start to try and appease each segment on its own purely, the art and lore side suffers significantly. PP did this and went full digital with their rules and the result is their fluff side has done so badly since that they've basically shut it down.

Infinity actually pairs fluff a LOT with their products by producing limited edition models sold with graphic novels; by selling limited edition models with rule and fluff books and by having rule and fluff expansions. Yes they've an app and fully online rules - they provide for that market. However they also still approach the combined product system. 

 

Even with combined products the fluff and art side still sells way less. Ask yourself how many people at the club and group regularly read BL novels or buy into them. Heck I was gaming for over a decade before I read any. 

The story and art behind armies is often what helps us retain a connection to them and an interest. Yes the big rule book is impractical and needs a side (later) printing in smaller format for practical sake; yes a working app is neat; yes digital online free rules are great; but at the same time combined products are powerful. And sure after you've supported a single army for 20 years the lore might be a bit repetative and you might only have 1 or 2 new models and bits of story in there that's fresh. That said looking back at my Tyranid Codex I've seen the lore go from basically a few pages and a few little quotations to fully half the book - to tens of pages of stories, unit descriptions and more. 

And just like that you've brought me back around!!

[Envyus]

Personally think people are being a bit kneejerky about Soulblight.

[Enoby]

In relation to rules, something I would love to happen but almost certainly will not due to the time it would take and the criticisms it would almost certainly garner, is a designer's commentary on an entire battletome's ruleset.

Like I said, it would never happen, but I would be really interesting to know why certain choices were made. E.g. "We removed shields of the Black Knights rules because we wanted Graveguard to have more of a place within the army as a defensive troop" or "We pointed Slaangors at 140 because we believe their MW rule gives them a high potential to generate depravity points".

It would at least give context for unpopular decisions and make feedback easier to give, e.g. "While I understand Slaangors can generate depravity points, their 5+ save means they will usually be dead by the end of the phase and so unable to use their MW rule". 

[Feii]

 Don’t want to talk about the A/B writer but I feel like the customers should be able to express a constructive criticism. 
 

 

Even if you take a step back and you dont want to play any army published in the last year you kinda have to admit that the lack of internal discussion and power level inbetween books/warscrolls is insane. 
 

 

slaanesh is my fabourite chaos god, the sculpts are absolutely gorgeous and I have saved up money to start a new army BUT their new battletome rules and warscrolls are absolutely uninteresting and stat wise they have like 40% winrate on TTS/IRL (australia). While getting older made me a more casual and one would call me a dad gamer I just have some personal subjective preferenced and playing something so uninspired goes against them. 
 

I play SCE and I bought the new gardus steelsoul (avsolutely trash warscroll) model. I wanted to get into slaanesh but their book is in my personal opinion bad and according to stats we have it is also bad. If you enjoy it more power to you. 
 

 

GW is not getting my money for slaanesh (sadly) and if the rules in Soulblight battletome are similar then I wont buy into that army either. Which pains me and I am a little bit angry about the team that wrote those rules and the lack of QC in GW. I guess I am not the only one. (Personal attacks are NOT the solusion)

[Aeryenn]

@Overread

Thanks for some information among other systems. When you put it that way... I mean, I don't want the lore to suffer. I bought 3 Broken Realms Books just for lore and surely will as well buy Kragnos for the same reason.

But i think we all agree that rules are not updated often enough. Sometimes a unit is in a great need of changing its rules and until next battletome it might be useless. From armies I collect I can call Kurnoth Hunters with Bows, Glaivewraith Stalkers, Mortisan Soulreaper, Vokmortian - they are all practically dead since their last battletome and need improvements.

One way to do that is to release books like Broken Realms and update certain warscrolls more often. But is this enough?

Edited May 13, 2021 by Aeryenn