The Rumour Thread

[Skabnoze]

15 minutes ago, Still-young said:

Are 'soup' lists an issue though? From what i've seen most people stick to factions anyway, soup is more a 40k problem.

Probably not.  But I would say it is a potential issue when half the alliances have the overwhelming mass of choices that can go into soup lists and the others are picking from a handful of scraps.  Certainly not the biggest problem in the game, but I think it is fair to say that it is not an ideal situation to have and could possibly lead to issues further down the road.

[Gecktron]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

If Grand Alliances went away, then there is little issue in regards to list-building for having so much junk crammed into one or two Grand Alliances and the others being sparse.  You still have the issue of some armies and themes being neglected, but you don't have issues with some big giant soup lists having more possible ingredients than others.

If Grand Alliances went away, then the game would have a very large and diverse selection of armies currently.  And to be fair, the game does.  But, the Grand Alliance system puts those diverse forces into buckets that then make the distribution of armies in the game look very very skewed (which it is).  That was my point in the original comment.

Getting rid of Grand Alliance would create more problems than it would solve. 
If you would get rid of Grand Alliances now, you would have a whole lot of factions that are immediatly unplayable. (Lion Rangers, Ironweld Arsenal, etc.)
All while fixing nothing. Grand Alliance armies are the narritive choice. People play them because they have a cool army idea or they want to play their old Fantasy army. (Besides that one Order army) GA armies are not very competitive. 

Also, I think people only put way more emphasis on the size of each Alliance than there is to them. A dwarfen player doesnt care about the recent Idoneth Deepkin release. Beastclaw Raiders doesnt satisfy that one specific itch a Ironjawz player has. 
Most people dont care about which Grand Alliances they are in. Its a tool to give players as much freedom as possible to build their army.  

[WoollyMammoth]

I don't mind the Grand Alliance system, but I think that its trying too hard to be forced into 4 boxes. Already with ally system they are set into individual boxes, but the option to pick and choose is still available. It's also still a bit of a problem, specifically in order, where you have such a wide variety to pick and choose the best items. Both LVO and Adepticon had mixed order lists in the top 10. It's not dominating the meta, its not a competitive problem, its more of just the fact that it kind of sucks if you are a fan of Warhammer Fantasy or of a 'grand alliance' that is only a fraction of the size of order. Things like Morathi being a snake-daemon who bathes in blood being an order army. Also I hate skaven in Chaos. I would prefer if they just split order up into a couple groups and made skaven its own thing like death, and then I think that things would have more balance from a lore and size perspective. Order is the 'good guys' while chaos/destruction/death are the 'bad guys'. I think its time to break the good guys into multiple groups too. 

[Still-young]

Order isn't 'good guys' for like the hundredth time. Everything that's in Order fits in Order, I dunno how you'd break it up.

Edited March 29, 2018 by Still-young

[BURF1]

14 minutes ago, WoollyMammoth said:

I don't mind the Grand Alliance system, but I think that its trying too hard to be forced into 4 boxes. Already with ally system they are set into individual boxes, but the option to pick and choose is still available. It's also still a bit of a problem, specifically in order, where you have such a wide variety to pick and choose the best items. Both LVO and Adepticon had mixed order lists in the top 10. It's not dominating the meta, its not a competitive problem, its more of just the fact that it kind of sucks if you are a fan of Warhammer Fantasy or of a 'grand alliance' that is only a fraction of the size of order. Things like Morathi being a snake-daemon who bathes in blood being an order army. Also I hate skaven in Chaos. I would prefer if they just split order up into a couple groups and made skaven its own thing like death, and then I think that things would have more balance from a lore and size perspective. Order is the 'good guys' while chaos/destruction/death are the 'bad guys'. I think its time to break the good guys into multiple groups too. 

Order aren't really the good guys, destruction aren't bad guys, and death is more selfish than anything.

I think it's more players trying to cram the grand alliances into the 'good/evil' box that's the problem than anything to do with the actual factions. Oh and order's getting too much stuff, but to be fair so is Chaos, and the chaos stuff is nowhere near as fun, interesting, or unique. Just rehashes of the same stuff we've had for 30 years.

[Drofnum]

4 minutes ago, Still-young said:

Order isn't 'good guys' for like the hundredth time. Everything that's in Order fits in Order, I dunno how you'd break it up.

I think good guys vs bad guys is boring as hell too.  I much prefer the groups being split the way they are rather than good and bad.

[Clan's Cynic]

15 minutes ago, BURF1 said:

Order aren't really the good guys, destruction aren't bad guys, and death is more selfish than anything.

I think it's more players trying to cram the grand alliances into the 'good/evil' box that's the problem than anything to do with the actual factions. Oh and order's getting too much stuff, but to be fair so is Chaos, and the chaos stuff is nowhere near as fun, interesting, or unique. Just rehashes of the same stuff we've had for 30 years.

In fairness though, when the vast majority of Order's armies follow Sigmar, a god who has thus far been nothing but benevolent and the rest of the Alliances have malevolent aims (corrupt everything, kill everything, kill-then-undeath everything) it's not difficult at all to see why people call Order the good guys. Groups like the Daughters of Khaine are more like the Token Evil Teammate. With the exception of them and the Darkling Covens, by and large Order is a pretty stellar bunch.

It's part of the reason I detest Nagash being written as having ran around getting rid of every other Underworld/Death God. It just turned Death into yet another "we kill because our leader(s) a ******" when there could have been a lot of potential for a much more nuanced alternative to Order, where Death isn't necessarily something to be feared, gods who give a damn about protecting the souls of their charges, etc. We see hints of this in the fiction, but it all falls flat when Nagash is just such an unrepentant arsehole backed up by his harem of arsehole lieutenants. I really hope we see more Death Gods appear that he can't just nom... somebody akin to what Morr was, albeit not on Sigmar's payroll (or dead-dead).

Edited March 29, 2018 by Clan's Cynic

[WoollyMammoth]

10 minutes ago, Still-young said:

Order isn't 'good guys' for like the hundredth time. Everything that's in Order fits in Order, I dunno how you'd break it up.

Ok how about .. order are the Protagonists and Destruction/Death/Chaos are the Antagonists. Or Defenders vs Attackers. 

I'm not saying everything is black and white. None of the good guys are 100% good. but they are still the good guys. Destruction wants to war (kill) for the sake of killing. And most of them are cannibals too. Chaos wants to absorb (kill) everything into themselves and reshape the world in their image. Death wants to kill everyone so that Nagash controls everything. Nothing in order wants to kill things to kill things. At least until Morathi. If we are talking the pure concept of order, nothing is more orderly than Death. Destruction tends to organize itself into organized groups, often with rules and codes. Only chaos can truly be without order. 

there are two overall groups, things that represent normal life, that typically wants to defend and protect normal life, and everything that wants to kill normal life and reshape reality into their own image. That is Order vs everything else.  

[NurglesFirstChosen]

 

Morathi doesn’t kill things for killings sake.

Ultimately daughters of khaine create cities where there is a form of law and order. They hate chaos, aren’t part of the living dead, and as I said before don’t fight for fightings sake. So the Grand alliance of order is logically where they sit. 

Anyway there’s a thread where this is discussed, so back to rumours we go....

Edited March 29, 2018 by NurglesFirstChosen

[Turgol]

-Not all Order armies follow Sigmar. DoK, all Aelves, DoK, Sylvaneth, FS do not. 

-DoK do kill things for killings sake. They have no "joy for battle" per se, as greenskins do, but they do have love of blood and suffering causing per se, which I would argue is much more evil than anything all non Chaos factions have to offer (and even some Chaos factions are less evil: barbarians have some honour).

 

[shinros]

8 hours ago, Clan's Cynic said:

In fairness though, when the vast majority of Order's armies follow Sigmar, a god who has thus far been nothing but benevolent and the rest of the Alliances have malevolent aims (corrupt everything, kill everything, kill-then-undeath everything) it's not difficult at all to see why people call Order the good guys. Groups like the Daughters of Khaine are more like the Token Evil Teammate. With the exception of them and the Darkling Covens, by and large Order is a pretty stellar bunch.

It's part of the reason I detest Nagash being written as having ran around getting rid of every other Underworld/Death God. It just turned Death into yet another "we kill because our leader(s) a ******" when there could have been a lot of potential for a much more nuanced alternative to Order, where Death isn't necessarily something to be feared, gods who give a damn about protecting the souls of their charges, etc. We see hints of this in the fiction, but it all falls flat when Nagash is just such an unrepentant arsehole backed up by his harem of arsehole lieutenants. I really hope we see more Death Gods appear that he can't just nom... somebody akin to what Morr was, albeit not on Sigmar's payroll (or dead-dead).

See here is the thing though, through nagash is the end of chaos. Why do you think they are freaking out in the malign portent supplment? They are not worried about sigmar, they are worried about what nagash is doing/planning.  Nick the writer of LON confirmed this. Sigmar will never defeat chaos with how he is handling things now. The grey aspect to death is being introduced that Nagash is more than happy to leave well enough alone if people worship him and in turn get protection from the plagues being spread by Nurgle while sigmar is sitting on his throne doing nothing. Right now the problem sigmar is facing is Detachment, he is detached from his followers which is giving chaos and death easy access. 

People turn to Nagash because with all the nonsense going on in the realms and with sigmar doing nothing they start to believe an iron-fist rule is needed. Especially if said god let's you know he is there all the time and stops you from becoming a maggot filled corpse due to nurgle.

There is nuance there.  There is no right answer, follow a god that gives you some freedoms but is detached, with this chaos is going to always mess with you and if you get corrupted even by accident you are most likely going to get purged. 

While on the other side of the coin if you prefer a god who rules with an iron fist and ensures people don't mess with you because you are his property and in turn receive partial immunity to the deprivations of chaos. 

You live in such a chaotic realm and when it comes down to it which one will you pick? I personally like these kinds of stories. 

Edited March 30, 2018 by shinros

[Skabnoze]

1 hour ago, NurglesFirstChosen said:

 

Morathi doesn’t kill things for killings sake.

Ultimately daughters of khaine create cities where there is a form of law and order. They hate chaos, aren’t part of the living dead, and as I said before don’t fight for fightings sake. So the Grand alliance of order is logically where they sit. 

Anyway there’s a thread where this is discussed, so back to rumours we go....

To play devil's advocate, Orcs have a pretty clear-cut and ordered hierarchy.  The biggest one is in charge and what they say goes.  The only deviation from that now currently seems to be Bonesplitterz who follow the glowiest one instead of the the biggest.  A simple but effective ordering system!

All the other races seem to make things way too complex...

Edited March 29, 2018 by Skabnoze

[Rogue Explorator]

2 hours ago, Skabnoze said:

To play devil's advocate, Orcs have a pretty clear-cut and ordered hierarchy.  The biggest one is in charge and what they say goes.  The only deviation from that now currently seems to be Bonesplitterz who follow the glowiest one instead of the the biggest.  A simple but effective ordering system!

All the other races seem to make things way too complex...

I am pretty sure that is not where you are coming from (or driving at), but I will take this opportunity to say how much the "other GAs have hierarchies, so order is not even Orders thing" argument bothers me. There is so much more to order in a society. Laws, institutions, some sense of accountability, law enforcement, courts, institutions of learning, iternal and external trade, settlements that form an actual society. All that stuff is at best rudementary in Chaos, Destruction and even Death. More often it is nonexistent or an outright mockery of any remotely civilised concept of such things, where even the worst factions of order live within a society that knows these things.

To think that Hierarchy=Order is really rather incomprehensible to me. Particularly as the hierarchy among the other GAs is a pure matter of might makes right. Even in Death most characters would gladly dispose of Nagash and take his place if they only could, it is merely by the fact that most leaders in Death have magical control over their subordinates and far fewer cretures of Death are even capable of climbing up the ranks (as most undead are locked in at their status and many even lack self any awareness) that they are more stable than Chaos and Destruction.

 

 

Sorry, I know we are really of topic here, but that is a little thing I can not simply let rest.

 

 

Now, to put this all a bit back on the rumor track, there have been some whispers here and there in the lore and from insiders that there is plenty of space for Undead that do not follow Nagash at all or even oppose him. We had a, shall I say, taste of that with FEC, though they are hardly less vile.

So, provided the teased upcomming Death release is not again the only one for the next few years, there is good cause to hope that Death will become much less monolithic in due time and thus, more morally gray.

Right now Nagash and Death play the part of main Antagonist, so it makes sense their worst qualities are highlighted, but even then, we have gotten some pretty ambigous portrayals of the lower ranks of Deaths self-aware followers.

 

I would also like to take this moment to recall that many servants of Death do not serve willingly, but are cursed to do so anyway, giving the entire GA a undertone of tragedy unique in AoS.

I really hope we will see that aspect explored further in future Death releases. I could see this done with Nighthaunt in particular, while most Nighthaunt shown so far are remains of the wicked, the lore is clear that Nagashes underworld can twist any soul, no matter how noble in life, into a monstrous apparition that hates the living (as shown with Banshees).

Edited March 30, 2018 by Rogue Explorator
incomplete sentence no good

[Kurrilino]

Guys please ... what do the last 5 pages have to do with any rumors ?????

We have several lore sections. You are most welcome to have your lore discussions over there

[Sharkbelly]

I heard a rumor that we may soon get back to talking about rumors... ?

[Ar-Pharazôn]

23 minutes ago, Sharkbelly said:

I heard a rumor that we may soon get back to talking about rumors... ?

I don't believe it. We're likelier to get Battletome: Gargants before that.

[Chikout]

News time! New shadespire warbands go up for pre-order on April 7th. Maybe that means we will get season 2 soon.

[Still-young]

Explains what’s coming in the week between the Dark Eldar codex and Idoneth, too! 

[Elmir]

I like the fact that shadespire took off the way it did, but they REALLY have to start releasing the card decks separately for a much lower cost. 

It's a competitive game in design, not a narrative one like AoS, and in order to be competitive, most decks contain a few cards from each single warband out there. This puts the starting costs for shadespire at a starterbox of €50, followed by an almost compulsory €135 worth of expansion boxes = €185! This isn't an introduction/hybrid into wargaming anymore, it's the actual price of an average decent sized warhammer army... It's actually one of the main reasons why it's hard to convince people in my gaming group to pick up the game. 

[Still-young]

8 minutes ago, Elmir said:

I like the fact that shadespire took off the way it did, but they REALLY have to start releasing the card decks separately for a much lower cost. 

It's a competitive game in design, not a narrative one like AoS, and in order to be competitive, most decks contain a few cards from each single warband out there. This puts the starting costs for shadespire at a starterbox of €50, followed by an almost compulsory €135 worth of expansion boxes = €185! This isn't an introduction/hybrid into wargaming anymore, it's the actual price of an average decent sized warhammer army... It's actually one of the main reasons why it's hard to convince people in my gaming group to pick up the game. 

I mean, it’s the whole business model of the game, basically. It’s the same as X wing. It’s not meant to be an introduction to wargaming, it’s a board game. 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, Still-young said:

I mean, it’s the whole business model of the game, basically. It’s the same as X wing. It’s not meant to be an introduction to wargaming, it’s a board game. 

Have you bought it? Genuinely the first thing I said to my brother when we unboxed itThe whole box is packaged and written to present Age of Sigmar as the next step. Right down to the final layer of the box which is a flyer for the starter set. Painting suggestions and links etc. 

It might not be it's main purpose but GW is definitely using Shadespire to introduce Age of Sigmar. 

[DantePQ]

I don't know about this but since those minis are playable in AoS some people will just buy for the minis. 

I think GW just need to sort of rules for those units if they were good enought to be addintional piece to Ironjawz, Fyreslayers army some pople would buy them just for that = double win for GW. 

[Still-young]

32 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Have you bought it? Genuinely the first thing I said to my brother when we unboxed itThe whole box is packaged and written to present Age of Sigmar as the next step. Right down to the final layer of the box which is a flyer for the starter set. Painting suggestions and links etc. 

It might not be it's main purpose but GW is definitely using Shadespire to introduce Age of Sigmar. 

It introduces the hobby and the universe, yeah. I spose I meant more gameplay wise, it’s a different beast to wargaming really. 

[Redmanphill]

36 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I think GW just need to sort of rules for those units if they were good enought to be addintional piece to Ironjawz, Fyreslayers army some pople would buy them just for that

I certainly would but the rules don’t add anything to the factions, the units are too small and won’t last long enough to be really useful. If they could have a bit more of a support role they’d be great.

[HorticulusTGA]

4 hours ago, Chikout said:

News time! New shadespire warbands go up for pre-order on April 7th. Maybe that means we will get season 2 soon.

Awesome ! I can't wait to get the little Flesh hound 

BTW, Season 2 should start around June, because the whole Stormcast vs Nighthaunt business. 

Oh, and GW posted this picture on FB about the end of Dread Solstice and a war that had just began ...

... Nighthaunt vs Stormcast ? WHAT A COINCIDENCE