The Rumour Thread

[sandlemad]

I get the logic behind combining future shadow elves with the DoK but I'm not sure it brings all that much? DoK is already a pretty well designed and fleshed out army, you know? 6-ish heroes, 8-9 units, it really highlights how shallow forces like Fyreslayers are. There's more visual and aesthetic variation between even Witch Elves and Sisters of Slaughter than between almost any two Fyreslayer units. They're a solid faction in themselves and I'm not sure that they need additional units from a neighbouring faction or, if they did merge, that they wouldn't overshadow (sorry) the new Umbraneth.

RE: the -eth suffix, it's probably just oversight but it could also reflect the fact that all the others are closer to large, discrete cultures/nations/'states' than the DoK. 

• Lumineth: great nations found exclusively in Hysh
• Idoneth: piratical city-states found in most realms
• Sylvaneth: somewhere between semi-anarchistic communes and extended clans found in most realms
• Umbraneth: ??? Something about the Thirteen Dominions

By contrast the Daughters of Khaine are a powerful and organised religious organisation with its spiritual heart and greatest presence in Ulgu but found in every realm. They have their temple-cities but sects are found in the free cities and elsewhere, and they don't claim territory in the same way as the other elven factions and were founded specifically because Morathi was denied any control of the nations of Ulgu by Malerion.

So they edge up to being something like a state - the battletome makes it clear they're practically a nation - but are probably better considered something like the Jesuits or the Knights Templar. They don't get an -eth for the same reason the Darkling Covens of the free cities or the Wanderers don't get an -eth.

I may be overthinking this.

Edited October 22, 2020 by sandlemad

[JackStreicher]

30 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I get the logic behind combining future shadow elves with the DoK but I'm not sure it brings all that much? DoK is already a pretty well designed and fleshed out army, you know? 6-ish heroes, 8-9 units, it really highlights how shallow forces like Fyreslayers are. There's more visual and aesthetic variation between even Witch Elves and Sisters of Slaughter than between almost any two Fyreslayer units. They're a solid faction in themselves and I'm not sure that they need additional units from a neighbouring faction or, if they did merge, that they wouldn't overshadow (sorry) the new Umbraneth.

RE: the -eth suffix, it's probably just oversight but it could also reflect the fact that all the others are closer to large, discrete cultures/nations/'states' than the DoK. 

• Lumineth: great nations found exclusively in Hysh
• Idoneth: piratical city-states found in most realms
• Sylvaneth: somewhere between semi-anarchistic communes and extended clans found in most realms
• Umbraneth: ??? Something about the Thirteen Dominions

By contrast the Daughters of Khaine are a powerful and organised religious organisation with its spiritual heart and greatest presence in Ulgu but found in every realm. They have their temple-cities but sects are found in the free cities and elsewhere, and they don't claim territory in the same way as the other elven factions and were founded specifically because Morathi was denied any control of the nations of Ulgu by Malerion.

So they edge up to being something like a state - the battletome makes it clear they're practically a nation - but are probably better considered something like the Jesuits or the Knights Templar. They don't get an -eth for the same reason the Darkling Covens of the free cities or the Wanderers don't get an -eth.

I may be overthinking this.

I think you are right.

[Scurvydog]

24 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

edge up to being something like a state - the battletome makes it clear they're practically a nation - but are probably better considered something like the Jesuits or the Knights Templar. They don't get an -eth for the same reason the Darkling Covens of the free cities or the Wanderers don't get an -eth.

Perhaps this is not even as thought out by GW as we might think, but it does make sense in that context. 

Also creations of the Aelven gods, but Morathi is not part of the pantheon, so her children does not get the "eth" part. Even if the idoneth were cast aside, they were originally creations of Teclis.

It will be interesting to see what happens with Malerions Aelves, I hope they are more monsters than Aelves, almost in a manner like Tree revenants from the Sylvaneth, twisted and warped horrors, but you can still see the Aelven core of them. If they are "just" like the shadowstalkers, dark elfs with black goo clouds around them, I would be sort of disappointed.

What we really need is more Orruks and not even more pancy aelves though.

[sandlemad]

It really is a lot of elf factions... They're distinct and that's cool but it does feel a little like what Hugo Dyson said during one of Tolkien's pub readings of the Lord of the Rings: "Oh god, not another f***ing elf".

[Beastmaster]

17 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

What we really need is more Orruks and not even more pancy aelves though.

No, we get shadowy assassin aelves and snakey  assassin aelves. Maybe some flying owly assassin elves to round it all up?  😎

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

I'm just so excited to see how the mortal realms shape up over the next year and for all the cool stuff we will inevitably get! (And also to find out more about Ulgu, my favourite realm!) Surely that Umbraneth 'slip' was intentional? How does an entire unreleased faction get through the net like that, otherwise? Hopefully, whatever's next isn't too far off!

[Lucentia]

Personally I'd prefer for the DoK to remain their own discrete faction, but I will grant that is almost entirely bias on my part as I already own a substantial DoK army, but I do generally think they work quite well as a standalone group and it would be quite easy to have that lost or diluted if brought into a larger Ulgu themed battletome.  (As we kind of saw when the BCR were brought back into the Ogor Mawtribes.)  I suspect the 'Umbraneth' slip does foreshadow that they will be joined with Malerion's forces in some capacity though, hopefully it will at least be done in an interesting and thoughtful fashion!  Certainly there are plenty of potential routes for that to happen, my favourite angles would be to either play up Malerion as a being almost wholly unconcerned with the mortal inhabitants of his realm and have his forces be mostly shadow demons and such, giving Morathi space to play the same scam twice whilst also not making Malerion seem powerless or incompetent, I think that could be fun.  Or alternatively having Morathi's ruse be discovered resulting in a schism in the DoK with some remaining loyal to her and others defecting to Malerion, I think this is probably the most likely route, and could be done in an entertaining way, but we'll see!

[Beastmaster]

BCR still work well as a „pure“ list, rules- and fluffwise. Many say even better than before or in mixed lists. 

I’d go so far as to name the Mawtribes book a good example of how to (re)combine armies without losing their uniqueness in the process, but with gaining possibilities that can be explored.

[Lhurgoyf]

8 hours ago, Beliman said:

Maybe an army of two keywords (Mawtribe style😞Umbraneth (main keyword) and Shadowkin/Daughters of Khaine (second keyword)??

That makes sense, especially since early Shadowstalker previews said they served both shadow gods.

 

I bet when Tyrion comes into the picture, the Lumineth end up getting structured the same way.

[novakai]

Maybe the reason Morathi creation doesn’t have a -Neth because she not a true god yet like the other 4 gods are

[Lucentia]

1 hour ago, Beastmaster said:

BCR still work well as a „pure“ list, rules- and fluffwise. Many say even better than before or in mixed lists. 

I’d go so far as to name the Mawtribes book a good example of how to (re)combine armies without losing their uniqueness in the process, but with gaining possibilities that can be explored.

Rules-wise I would agree with you, certainly, barring a few missed opportunities I quite like the Ogor book all told, but I felt a lot of the fluff and background I enjoyed from the original BCR battletome had been stripped out or fallen by the wayside to help them fit in with the Gutbuster side of things.

[Public Universal Duardin]

I feel like it is inevitable that Malerion's elves (Umbraneth?) merge with DoK. The sheer amount of armies even currently in play means that if GW keeps adding separate forces we go back to the """good old days""" when one army book is 2 editions out of date with a decade old models. In a way, it is terribly logical - not every faction will be equally popular, and obviously GW will focus on the factions that sell. We already know that AOS does well with subfactions and multiple armies united by an umbrella keyword, giving options to mix and match or run 'pure' armies - it wouldn't be out of place to have DoK and whatever Malerion's army will be called tucked under an 'Umbraneth' keyword, giving opportunity to run a 'pure' forces of either and to mix and match alike.

[JackStreicher]

Well the new WarCom article about Competetive Gaming is rather bad imo, not due to the person being interviewed,  it‘s due to the way they present it like „everything is fine“. This could have been the point at which they could admit that some armies might be a bit too weak. Instead they deliver the message of „every army is powerful“, which is wrong. Don‘t you worry, Be‘lakor and Marauders aren‘t that bad, be happy S2D!

“Idoneth Deepkin Are good against the shooting meta“ - That is NOT the point and it does not make the army super great.

they could have turned this „confession „ around by asking the player what those weaker faction would need and then end it with a tease of things to come...

Edited October 22, 2020 by JackStreicher

[BaylorCorvette]

That Metawatch article very clearly shows how shooting is king in AoS. Heck Stormcast ranked up there but only because of their shooting. Aside from that Stormcast is not very good, at all.

It would be nice for AoS 3.0 if there was more penalty to shooting. For instance if player A has two units, one of which is engaged in melee with the enemy and they have their other unit shoot into that combat, maybe the misses have a chance to hit their unit. I mean it would kind of make sense, if you're shooting into melee combat and you miss your target, then there would be reasonable chance that your misses hit your friends. Would also help balance the obvious shooting meta in AoS right now.

[Scurvydog]

The shooting problem is not that easy to nail down. They made a monster with the KO in the AoS setting, as the common weakness of shooting heavy armies should probably have are just about completely mitigated, such as mobility and durability, instead we have the most mobile army in the game, sitting in hyper mobile bunkers, so even if engaged they can take a beating.

If we look at warhammer fantasy, access to shooting was more limited and units like handgunners, archers, catapults etc. all had clear exploitable weaknesses, often with the most powerful shooting either getting penalties to hit or completely unable to fire if moving at all.

Balancing shooting in this game is very hard and ranged units will have a fine line between overpowering and too weak. Sylvaneth can make shooty lists, but nobody complains about those, but they can win games, just does not go 5/5 at tournaments for sure, yet they might be hitting a better balance level than KO or Tzeentch or even Seraphon, because it is not that oppressive relentless bombardment and a bit more of a game.

[BaylorCorvette]

You hit the nail on the head with KO, in terms of shooting, being super mobile and sitting in mobile bunkers. Tzeentch just has good shooting with great spell casting and then decent chaff (Pinks and the ability to split) which all together make them strong. The thing with Sylvaneth is that while they can be decent at shooting they aren't oppressive in the other phases of the game. 

Anyways, the fact that GW put out an article that looked at Meta's in AoS gives me a little bit of hope that they will realize that something needs to be done. After all, if you just want to sit and shoot, GW already make a game for that and it's called Warhammer 40,000.

Edited October 22, 2020 by BaylorCorvette

[Icegoat]

All that article shows as we have all known is if you dont collect am order army dont bother showing up. 

Release after release of overpowered dwarves aelves stormcast and now seraphon have plagued aos for the past two years. 

The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. 

[Baron Klatz]

No you definitely show up with Tzeentch too. They can dominate the magic and shooting phase just as well since 2017.

Honestly surprised Kharadron are getting backlash for this. After 2018 they seemed the constant underdogs who couldn't survive with nerfed shooting and made low tourney lists.

But eh, the meta will shift again next year. With more feedback/Ghur and Gordrakk in focus monsters amd melee may be kings again.

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

It will be interesting to see what happens with Malerions Aelves, I hope they are more monsters than Aelves, almost in a manner like Tree revenants from the Sylvaneth, twisted and warped horrors, but you can still see the Aelven core of them.

In the lore that's how they're described so far. Winged & horned aelven devils like their creator Malerion.

Shadowstalkers might be a branch off more towards Morathi since she was also behind the Shadowkin that explored the Silver Tower.

I think she and Teclis will be the only ones with "normal aelves" when the legacy smoke clears. Her because as a demigoddess she needs any followers she can get to work alongside her few new races and Teclis because he's trying to recreate past glories.

The other aelven gods don't have those hang ups and are pushing for new things (Tyrion can be speculated on this as he was the one that stopped Teclis from destroying the Deepkin and saw potential in them)

Edited October 22, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[Soolong]

12 minutes ago, Icegoat said:

All that article shows as we have all known is if you dont collect am order army dont bother showing up. 

Release after release of overpowered dwarves aelves stormcast and now seraphon have plagued aos for the past two years. 

The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. 

Just had  of activation wars ruled by Slannesh and FEC, then a brief magic meta with tzennech playing top dog. Also, overpowered stormcast? Funnest thing I've read on these forums for awhile 🤣

[swarmofseals]

1 hour ago, Icegoat said:

All that article shows as we have all known is if you dont collect am order army dont bother showing up. 

Release after release of overpowered dwarves aelves stormcast and now seraphon have plagued aos for the past two years. 

The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. 

Back to obvious trolling, I see. Tzeentch is top tier, OBR is still very solid, and Orruk Warclans have many good builds. And over the past few years the most complained about armies have been DoK, Idoneth, FeC, Tzeentch, OBR, and Slaanesh.

[Baron Klatz]

It shows his troggoth ways are evolving at least. Not one mention of Cities of Sigmar doom in that whole post. 

On another note is how much they're pushing shooting armies with this article. I feel like GW cherry picked the results to show off Kharadron more than anything else.

It's a reach but between this and their Warcry band i'm hoping it's a set-up for new Kharadron releases in the near future.

Some new shieldships to block the thunderous clubs of Mega-gargants as they explore Ghur in next year's narrative.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Baron Klatz

[King Under the Mountain]

2 hours ago, Icegoat said:

All that article shows as we have all known is if you dont collect am order army dont bother showing up. 

Release after release of overpowered dwarves aelves stormcast and now seraphon have plagued aos for the past two years. 

The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. 

As a long time player who has gotten there butts whooped by pretty much every army while playing Kharadron, I can tell you they are far from overpowered.

[SleeperAgent]

This article gives me hope. Nighthaunt is pretty much where KO was 2 years ago. Hopefully that means the spooky boys get a new book thats insanely overpowered 🙂

Edited October 23, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Saturmorn Carvilli]

4 hours ago, Icegoat said:

The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. 

I don't know what kind of Chaos Warriors you been encountering, but mine right hard Pathers*.  Two Wounds, 4+ Save re-rolled most of the game, often a 6+ Feel No Pain, 5+ vs. Mortal Wounds and Immunity to Battleshock.  I have had entire armies of DoK and KO rained down all the shooting they could muster only to find they managed all of 4-7 warriors removed.  Which I think isn't half bad when you consider the sheer amount of damage they had to facetank.

Chaos Warriors might hit like they got wooden swords, but if anything; they are almost too tough.  I no longer dream of brutalizing my opponent's army with my S2D and focus on the attrition game with Chaos Warriors being my broad and thick anvil in my army.  It generally works out pretty good save against something like OBR who just play the attrition game better than S2D.

 

*As in Path to Glory

[Ogregut]

This is the thing about about 'this army is to good, this army is to weak', everyone has their opinions and anidotal evidence. 

In the long run, does it really matter? 

The important thing is to have fun. For some that's running the toughest army they can build, for some it's facing the toughest army and trying to find ways to beat it. 

If you're not having fun, look at why. 

Does your opponent always take the new hotness and pound you into the ground? 

Maybe suggest some narrative games. Write some interesting battleplans, delelop a story and watch your characters develop personalities. 

The meta is all good but it's not everything. 

I've been playing warhammer for nearly 30 years now and I really think there has never been a more exciting time to be a wargamer. 

So many possibilities coming to AoS -

Umbraneth - take my money 

Soulblight - hell yeah

Something totally left field we didn't see coming - bring it on! 

Don't forget the reason we invest time and money in these toy soldiers - to have a laugh and some fun. 

 

To keep it about rumours and some speculation, I wonder if AoS entry for the shadow stalkers doesn't follow the patten we've seen so far of 1 in X must be Y because they will get a muilt part kit release and a shadow queen as a seperare model.