Saturmorn Carvilli

If I had my druthers concerning how to frame the mortal populations of Age of Sigmar, I would first hammer home the post-apocalypse nature that most of the Realms are corrupted by Chaos to the point that most humans, aelves, duardin and other races have reverted to a tribal existence not much different from beastmen and Bonesplitterz. The big exception being many of these tribes don't understand the true nature of Chaos and/or aren't thriving nearly as well. It's groups of people trying to survive one-day-at-a-time, praying to who ever will listen (which is usually Chaos) and still slowly sinking into extinction in such a savage world. Beyond the tribal mortals and bandit marauder armies, dotting the landscape are dark kingdoms. Setup by the most powerful of Chaos Lords who no longer marauder and pillage the Realms to attract the attention of the dark gods. They cruelty they inflict on peons of their kingdom and the surrounding lands is enough of an engine to stay on the Path to Glory... for now. Reading the S2D battletome, I wasn't a fan of the faction basically doing what they did in the World-That-Was (WHFB), when basically most of the realms are Chaos Wastes/Shadowlands/Northlands. Powerful Chaos warriors/sorcerers probably should go all 9th level AD&D Fighter and establish a hold with men-at-arms... but evil. Finally, I would make certain that the Cities of Sigmar, Hysh, the Dawnstar Crusade, Wildwood Groves, etc. are very much the exception in the Mortal Realms. Either being bastions that have so far repelled Chaos, secret lands where corruption has not yet found, or small reclaimed lands barely cleared of Chaos' tainted influence. And all live under the Sword of Damocles. At any moment a massive force of Chaos, Death or Destruction could sweep into these lands and destroy everything and more GA Order aligned mortals have sought to build. Ultimately, I would want the Age of Sigmar to still very much feel like the Age of Chaos where it is far from ensured that there will be an Age of Sigmar or even Order ever again. The Age of Chaos may or may not ever come to a close. And this age does end, it may usher in an Age of Death or an Age of Destruction. All powers can lay claim to either maintaining or ushering in a new era for the Mortal Realms. But none can do so with any confidence. And that's where our games of AoS come in.

I may have not been clear. I agree with you. What I meant was unlike WHFB/40k, AoS is finally moving away from the standard generic Tolkien fantasy setting that I feel was done to death once saying generic fantasy setting gained wide understanding (like the early 2000s at latest). What I was getting at was AoS can't rely on the shorthand of previous works to fill in the gaps like Tolkien/D&D did for WHFB. Or not nearly as much. While AoS still basically has elves, dwarves, orks and other creatures common in any 'My First D&D Campaign', it also has a lot of things that do require more than, "This is an elf, but underwater that steals souls." Especially in the setting's landscape and world building, beyond why mythic armies of legend (our armies) do battle all the time. Which I think why the setting gets a thumbs down so often. It's completely unfamiliar and has to do the work itself, instead of letting J.R.R. and Gygax cover the fundamentals and GW put on the flourishes. As to your other paragraph: that's my concern as well. I am not sure that GW willing to pay for good writers (assuming they can continue to attract them at all) once they find their feet and figure out AoS as a setting. GW is likely to let them go, and get the next cheap, often inexperienced, writer to give it a go. And something like that is likely to provide a schizophrenic experience as one writer doesn't like the previous stuff and/or wants to make their mark on the setting. All of which could very easily continue to be the sparkly super mush product AoS mostly is today. Or GW throws their hands up in the air and says, "40k is popular and works, make AoS 40k but not in space." Which is where I worry about grimdark. AoS has elements of grim and dark, but unlike 40k in which the galaxy is doomed and humanity is 2-minutes from midnight; AoS has a slim but definite chance that Sigmar can bring the Mortal Realms back to its former glory. Of course, the Mortal Realms could still be far too corrupted to be recovered from Chaos, or Nagash equally could succeed in total control of everything in the Realms too. It's even possible that Destruction just blows it all up too. Every bloc/faction has a shot at coming out on top. And few players/fans are able to say who as definitively as they can in 40k. I want to maintain that tension that was thrown-away in 40k on the altar of grimdark.

As a very, very, VERY long time player of D&D, and victim of 101 1990s 'original' campaign settings in volumes of spiral bound notebooks which were all Tolkien but ___________. I find Age of Sigmar a refreshing direction for a Fantasy Setting with a lot of untapped potential. I applaud GW for creating AoS, their most original setting. Both WHFB and 40k, did a lot of standing on the shoulders of giants with their cribbing homages of popular fantasy and sci-fi works. I certainly know there was more to WHFB than: Tolkien but Holy Roman Empire. However, that really did a lot of the heavy lifting and shorthand for the setting over anything GW actually created. The same goes for 40k steeped heavily in Dune, Starship Troopers, The Foundation, 2000 AD and a whole host of others. Both settings made use of more talented fiction with real world history to form both their frameworks and their safety nets to get them where they are today. Though, certainly both are transformative to be their own thing. Age of Sigmar doesn't have that. Unless my gap in Fantasy and Sci-Fi fiction is that wide these days. Surely, there are elements in AoS that can me compared to other works of fiction, but I don't see the DNA of Tolkien in AoS at all as clearly as I do with WHFB, or Dune with 40k. Games Workshop is creating the setting far more with the talent they hire to do it. And no disrespect to any of the authors that have worked on it, they're all more talented than I; but I am sure they'd all agree they pale in comparison to Tolkien, Herbert, Heinlein, Asimov, etc. So the world building of AoS suffers for it. And that's before getting into GW being far more of a corporation making 'safe' and marketable content than they were many decades ago. I argue that dark stuff is still there, just out in the margins and/or buried deep between the lines. Without that framework or safety net, I fear that GW may go back to the grimdark well, like today's movies go to established franchises. Because in a boardroom meeting it can be demonstrated this performed well and therefor is safe. I don't want that. I want GW to continue to work without that safety net and get creative. The problem is, I have real concerns that GW can't attract and keep the kind of talent AoS needs. I think Josh Reynolds had a pretty good idea on how to make the Mortal Realms interesting. But GW let him go. Which I think is something that will continue to happen, as I suspect GW is too cheap to keep the talent they manage to attract in the first place that could allow the setting to grow and develop in a crowd pleasing way. Again, I see a lot of potential in Age of Sigmar, or as I like to think of it; Age of Chaos during an inter-Sigmar period. As Sigmar and his forces have a long way to go before they actually close the Age of Chaos. AoS is one of few settings I'd want to use for a D&D game as the DM. Where the players are tribes people forced to pray to malicious forces for their continued survival. While told stories around the fire of golden clad boogeymen that ride lightning bolts come to take naughty children away. As I like the idea of these tribes just trying to survive in a corrupted and evil land where even their would-be saviors are frightening, being both powerful and unknown to their way of life. But then again, I like the idea of a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting where evil as nearly won with only a few pinholes of light and hope in an attempt to prevent the complete fall of everything. And even the light and hopeful is unsure if it is too late already.

Or some people put spectacle and lore way ahead of the actual game. From the posts of yours I have read, I suspect you value gameplay and balance so much, I am not entirely sure whether you would understand that. Particularly as you seem upset and angry almost all the time here. My GW collections feature a number of codified subfaction paint schemes. Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (~4000pts), Ymetrica Lumineth (~3000pts), Mephrit Necrons (~2000pts), Fallen/30k Dark Angels (~1000pts), Bad Moon Orcs kill team (~500pts), Stygies VIII Admech kill team (~300pts), Jormungandr Tyranids kill team (~250pts), Kabal of the Dying Sun or the Falling Moon Dark Eldar kill team (~200pts). Each get played in the subfaction they are painted in. No exceptions. All those kill teams were painted before subfactions were even added to Kill Team. Since most are 'stealth' based factions, the actual rules are pretty bad in Kill Team (some kind of Obscured when more than 12" away usually). If the black and gold box art scheme of Slaves to Darkness ever gained subfaction rules, I'd use them too. I am that committed to lore/narrative over how they rules might fall out. I would prefer my opponent do the same. It does tend to indicate that they value the lore and the narrative of their army as much as a rpg player values their player character to me. At very least, they glanced at the lore part of these books. I suppose I respect the lore far more than the rules of any GW game. That said, I am not going to force their paint scheme to be a straight jacket. People change, rules change, favorite colors happen, cheap E-bay armies happen and a whole host of other things do to. So I keep my mouth shut on the subject and try and remember the subfaction they say it actually is. Because to me, it's just like using big centerpiece, unique character models, I really don't make use of them, but I am not the boss of my opponent's army. Still, I can't help to feel the hobby is somehow lesser for it. Likely because I hang so much on the spectacle and lore side of things and have so little respect for the actual rules.

I don't remember their names, but for the red armor are like beast masters or something and the black armor ones like really hate Chaos and are more likely to not care about collateral damage is what I remember. I can even say the silver and blue Stormcast are like really religious and say something like 'Only the faithful'. You got me on their names, though. That said, I don't think I could even name half the SCE units. Heck, I forgot some factions even still exist in AoS.

Wouldn't Skyport: Barak-Thryng allow KO to field a Carmine Dragon or any other Duardin Monster? If you really want and think Monsters are going to be the tipping point in AoS 3rd edition, you that option if I understand the rules correctly, or you could take Bundo Whalebiter too I believe. I kinda think you might be overvaluing Monsters. I think even without adding a Monster to a KO army their kite mastery leaves them doing okay. I think they have a solid enough Battleline unit (I think they could use more Battleline units myself) with the Arkanaut Company that have seen some aid in the AoS 3 rules as well as tad less growing pains going to the new edition too. I agree with KO, like most AoS factions, could use something to deter MWs as the aethergold standard of damage. I think MW is a simple, important and flavorful way to cover magic/supernatural/energy-type damage in AoS, but in a setting where that is so common, defense should also be decently common that every faction should probably have spell(s), abilities and/or units resistant to it discourage skewing into MW attacks. Even as a LRL player, I would love KO to have something like an energized aethersuit that make the dawi inside pretty safe from MW and even had a chance to reflect it back. I also think that KO could probably use native chaff and/or melee units to round them out. Of course, monsters are always fun. Until then, I don't think the sky duardin are going to greatly suffer under AoS 3rd ed rules. I feel they will stay on the better side but within the fat middle of factions. Honestly, is exactly where I like my factions to be: not suffering near insurmountable rules decencies but not so powerful it's more list than player winning games.

I usually aim a little low on damage as a habit because counting on average can get you in trouble fast. But yeah, what you have is the average. I do see in terms of LRL as melee being more efficient than ranged. Wardens can produce double the number of MW as Sentinels for basically the same points cost. I don't hear much about how they are insane damage dealers. With 3" range they aren't as likely to attacks as most melee, with similar support; they can reasonably charge anything with 18" of them. The difference being that the opponent has a better chance of doing something about it. Which I get the one-two punch of Wardens and Sentinels. You got one unit feeding you MW far away, and then you got another feeding you even more up close. Which if the thing isn't dead, it is certainly crippled to uselessness. It is difficult for me to visualize. On the one hand, my other, first AoS army is almost entirely has a +5 MW save and usually a 6+ damage save (FNP). Facing an army that generates ton of MWs as their path to victory seems like a sure fire way they are going to lose no matter the range they can do it at even with me having none. I do know all too well the being chipped away at ranged thing. I play far number of opponents that have ranged armies, and those ranged weapons often come with Rend -1 with takes more wounds than I would like before I can finally get to them. Maybe all Heroes should have a +5 MW save, I don't know. Also, due to my attrition, often slow moving play style (with both my S2D and Alarith LRL), I am not sure how Wardens, Sentinels and Support cover ground to claim enough objectives to win. Do slowly slog up the board dealing damage taking objectives late game from the now destroyed or hopelessly crippled enemy? Wouldn't that leave their rear exposed for teleport or resistant flankers? I could see such LRL being fine with static objective games, but moving ones they seem like they would still struggle like I have with my S2D army. It just doesn't seem like they have the durability leaning heavy Vanari much of the time. Don't get me wrong, there are a bunch of tweaks I think the Lumineth should have. In general, I think their spell casting values are too low. Especially with all the ways they can reduce them or Teclis not even caring. Even being great archers, I think 24" is a much better range for aloft shots Sentinels and maybe can't move to fire. Lambent Light probably should just be misses to prevent MW fishing. I also wouldn't be bothered if Power of Hysh was radically altered to something like MW in addition to, as that would reduce the average MWs while potentially increasing the number total number of wounds, giving Vanari a bit better chance against horde units. That's still probably too good though.

Can you kindly run me how this is accomplished? Please don't leave out casting failure or total points used to accomplish it if you can. I only request the breakdown of this as it really does sound like some Chaos Space Marine combos that would be devastating if everything lined up correctly, but for everything to line up it both required dice and the opponent work in one's favor. Not exactly something to count on when playing, since is it basically requires laboratory conditions to pull off. I can even help out where I understand it. Please know any mistakes or anything left out is not due to any malicious intent. Rather, I don't play AoS exclusively nor all that often and hardly ever for highly optimized play. Even as a Lumineth (Ymetrica Mountain Temple focused) player, I know little to nothing about wave 2 units or other Great Nations. I am not trying to downplay this, though I will state that my hypothesis is that, 'This combo may be powerful but does include a lot of failure points where either luck, a wiley opponent and/or both could foil it before completing it.' The Units 20 Sentinels (300pts)+ some Lore of Hysh Wizard such as Teclis (660pts old points) or Scinari Cathallar General with the Loremaster Command Trait (140 old points). So somewhere around 350 at the low end with a lesser Hero (5 wounds) General or 1000+ with Teclis on the high end. The Setup During the Lumineth Hero Phase, Power of Hysh (casting value 6, 5 with Aetherquartz or re-rollable with Aetherquartz) allows Sunmetal Weapons cause MW on rolls of 5 and 6s. The Lore of Hysh Wizard then casts Lambent Light (casting value 5 possibly modified with Aetherquartz) is cast upon the Sentinels. During the Lumineth Shooting Phase, the 20 Sentinels attack the said 14 wound Hero. That's 19 attacks. I am going to assume aloft to cover the opposing Hero being at distance or out of Light of Sight. Aimed shots could certainly do a bit more damage. So we are looking at something like 10 successful hits, 4 of them being MW right off the bat. That leaves 9 dice that missed or 15 if the Lumineth player wished to fish for more MWs. For ease, I will say the LRL player goes for the mortal wounds and pick up 3 more with 4 regular successful hits. Those 4 successful hits become 2 successful wounds, Rend 0. Let's say 1 of those wounds does damage. Total damage is 7 MW and 1 regular damage which takes 8 of those wounds off that opposing Hero and is down to 6. For simplicity, we'll have to say that LRL do no more damage to that opposing hero nor tie them up to allow a charge. During the opposing 14 (now 6) wound Hero turn, they [I don't know AoS 3 well yet] don't heal [that's something that Heroes can do right?]. Or they do, and roll poorly gaining 0-1 wounds back. Either way, it doesn't return them to more than half. Now that opposing hero makes a charge within the conditions to allow the LRL player to Unleash Hell. And the Sentinels are likely to cause roughly the same amount of damage (7MW and 1 regular damage). Which does indeed slay that 14 wound Hero. Complications I hope this break down reveals some of the cracks in why this combo is unlikely to be pulled off. Please note, I am not saying that Sentinels are not powerful here. Delivering some 8 damage most of it MWs is going to be tough on a lot of opposing armies even if it isn't focused all into a 14 wound Hero. I just want to illustrate the journey to get there and perhaps point out some failure points of this combo. First and foremost, spells fail. In AoS 3 spell can even harm the caster. Now the LRL do have Aetherquartz to mitigate this one time a game. With the Scinari Cathallar, they might even be able to turn the tables on the opposing army's Bravery. However, that doesn't completely make it safe. Not going with Teclis (which becomes half the LRL army) leaves the Lore of Hysh Wizard potentially and viable sniping target. To be sure, not all factions have access to sniping units and Lookout, Sir! certainly can make it resource intensive to attempt. That doesn't leave it off the table [as much as even I would like it to be]. What's good for the goose is good for the gander when it comes to ranged combat if you have it. Just note, elves and aelves are known for their archery so trying to out do them there is going to be tough. Damage is also an issue. Sentinels have a limited amount of damage they can do. I am not going to argue about it being too much MW, and so I will just assume it is for sake of not wanting to argue about it. Please note, Wardens can easily double the amount of MW that Sentinels can, and with the same sort of Lore of Hysh support can create easy charges (Like with Speed of Hysh). When talking about damage, what I really want to point out is the opposing 14 wound Hero had already taken more than half their wounds in the first volley. If the LRL opponent wasn't able to heal enough wounds back to cover this kind of damage or already weaken the Sentinels, why are they attempting a charge knowing Unleash Hell exists? Surely that is folly. Conclusion Yes, this combo is devastating. It is also resource intensive and wrought with failure points. Some of which are fully within control of the opponent. This break down of the sequence of events is not to demonstrate that Sentinels aren't OP. They can clearly lay down the hurt and a lot of if it is allowed to. Nor was this to demonstrate that Unleash Hell isn't potent. I am sure there will be games where the objective between a player and victory will have Sentinels and Unleash Hell standing between them. This breakdown is more about dismantling the idea that pulling off such a powerful combo is fraught with issues, which in my opinion; make it not as scary to me because if my opponent needs that many things to go right to win, I don't they are going to. I just would like everyone to consider the construction of these combos and any actual applied use in games. Not something that has to go very right to pull off. Which I feel is a sort of hyperbole, and while that will grab attention, it won't strengthen one's argument.

Two to four days wouldn't be too bad if that's all it turns out to be. I had Covid beat me up for 10 days the last few had me in hospital for a couple nights (just on O2, no ventilator). I would caution you and your wife to be careful. I thought I was out of the woods around my day 5. It turned out Covid went from a general flu-like illness to stomach flu-like illness. Then it became a respiratory thing which sent me to the hospital. Afterward, it took an entire week of rest to recuperate enough to barely be able to do my job. I was told I was on the bad side of how Covid effects most people, but I want to give a bit of cautionary advice to have your wife take it easy just the same.

I think you are correct with that. I think some reasons are that AoS unlike 40k had pretty workable core rules at the end of AoS 2nd ed. Warhammer 40k 8th ed was kinda mess at the end. I personally think updating all the codices would have only got the game so far. So a new edition was welcome. Particularly as 40k had seen a jump in popularity and a new edition is usually a good place to jump into the game as the meta is more or less reset to zero so new players don't feel like they are playing catch up. I also think that salad days of 40k happened before the pandemic close downs. Where AoS was experiencing re-newed vigor as the pandemic hit. Maybe that's my personal perception as that was happened to me as I had grown mostly bored with 40k and hadn't yet got that many games of AoS in. In some ways, I do feel cheated out of getting to experience more of AoS 2nd edition. At this point right now, I like AoS 2nd more than 3rd. That certainly can change after I actually play the new rules, but to look at the new rules on paper has me thinking the game is moving away from what I liked about. I don't think AoS 3rd is worst, just not the direction I wanted to go. I am hoping that I come to enjoy, or at very least, tolerate the new rules as I do enjoy the models, setting and local players of AoS a bit more than 40k now.

Dominion was never going to sell anywhere close to Indomitus. Space marines get ragged on constantly on the internet, but they are crazy popular. Mostly with new players as they are the recommended beginner army since they play the whole game and generally are bottom tier. Even Necrons make for a great beginner army both in painting and somewhat in rules. Stormcast are okay as a beginner army, but at the same time, I don't know if AoS needed to worry about that as it is kinda a simpler game, or at least it was. And Kruleboyz are a bit of an unknown on how complicated or not they will be. Though, their models do not look easy to paint to me. Not to mention, there isn't a huge core of AoS customer base that is SCE. I have seen a SCE army is person nor talked to someone that has one. And my area is pretty popular for AoS with at least a couple dozen people with armies. I haven't even seen a new/prospective player talk about Stormcast. Which makes me what to start an army of them all the more, as I can be confident that I won't face a mirror match. I also think timing was an issue. With Indomitus, it was hyped and came out during a period in the pandemic where I believe people were still talking about finally having time and money to collect and paint models. That was, like, a year ago. I definitely don't see memes about that anymore. Maybe I am projecting here, but I think there is a lot of pandemic fatigue that has set in. I haven't got anywhere close to what I hoped to have painted by now. So I don't need to add to the pile of shame. Especially something like Kruleboyz which look like they would take me a while, or at least certainly longer than painting up Necrons would. I think perhaps Kruleboyz weren't the best inclusion in the box either. I mean, sure Destruction needed their due and the models are fine. But they do nothing for me. I suspect I am not alone in that. The Stormcast are Stormcast, and I would like to start an army of them some day. But just looking at the Kruleboyz, I don't think I would have much fun painting them. Not to mention Krulebozy, for someone not really following everything, are an unknown on how they play on the table. Compared to Indomitus with two well known factions both being fairly straight forward to play and a good jumping in point for new players.

This was precisely why I didn't pick up Dominion. The Stormcast were fine, and someday I kinda want to start an SCE army as I haven't seen one in person or even talked to someone locally that has an army of them. I don't really sell part of boxed set I get. It was up to the other half on whether I'd get it or not. Kruleboyz are good-looking models, but they don't move me at all. Plus, unlike Necrons, they look like they will take a long time for me to paint. As someone that allowed their paint projects to get away from them that was an important factor. I agree, but I don't think it was much of a factor. I mean, if my area had people who wanted to stay with 2nd ed I'd probably join them. But since there is a new edition, that's what I'll be playing even if I am not the biggest fan of the new rules right now. Which could change after a few games. If anything, Dominion provides a rule book practically for free given GW's model prices. I personally felt more incentivized to get Dominion for that reason. Now, I am not even sure I will pick up a rule book at all. I can rely of on the free rule set already out and just memorize anything not in it. It isn't like my opponent and I reference the core rules during a game all that much anyways. All-in-all, I agree with Chikout's list. I do think the big factor is Dominion didn't have space marines where Indomitus did. Heck, even the Necrons being crazy easy to paint made the box great for new players to get into 40k. I also think that Indomitus came out in a much better point in time as the pandemic hadn't dragged on like it has now. I can't remember now, but I think the idea that everyone was going to have time and money to paint an army was still around. Now, nearly a year past that, I think the truth has settled in more. I still have tons of pandemic painting projects not done. I don't need to add more as things finally return to normal. I am also painting much less as I am grown sick of painting with little opportunity to actually game. On top of just painting too much as having not much else to do. All things leading me to not want to buy more models.

I play a Ymetrica Alarith focused list (see spoiler for what I like to build from), and that isn't likely to change too much no matter how the rules shake out. I am not as concerned about movement (I am used to slow armies) as I am the loss of the Alarith Temple Battalion (assuming my area sticks with Matched Play). I feel without the re-roll, all that Rend immunity isn't going get me far enough holding ground well enough. I was liking the hammer (Spirits) and anvil (Stone Guard) style my army had. I haven't had much luck with the Dawnriders staying on the table very long. Which was fine. They have worked well enough spread out my opponents forces. Plus, someday I will play against chaff infantry and the Dawnriders will have their day. My Sentinels seem to really only do minor chip damage. Which annoys my opponent, but usually doesn't shake them. I also don't if it will be wise to continue to have both Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain in the same list unless I just want to smash the enemy and lose the game on objectives. I know monsters are better, but I don't think I have the bodies to hold out all game long. I haven't yet added anything from wave 2 yet. I think I might finally get around to making use of my 20 Wardens to get more bodies on the field. I might also have to consider more Wizards in general. For a Lumineth player, I actually make use of very few spell casters. My army is still going to be focused on Alarith, just maybe not laser focused like it was. Or like I was planning by picking up another 10 Stone Guard. I think I will play a few more games with the stuff I like to see how it holds up for me first though.

Which is where we approach agreement. I don't know there is much to discuss fixing it, as I sure you are aware; GW is very hesitant to alter warscrolls/datasheet outside a battletome/codex. Unless Sentinels start rocking major tournaments, I don't think we can even expect a further points increase either. So in optimized play one is going to have a plan to deal with them in they are deciding factor in the meta. In other kinds play, best to treat a LRL army list with a lot of Sentinels like any other skew list.

My mindset is that is just the nature of optimized (i.e. competitive) gaming. Could be wrong with that mindset, as optimized play isn't my bag, so I don't give it much thought. The funny thing is, if that is Lumineth's optimized, tournaments are showing the faction to be pretty darn average. I disagree with the idea that LRL's battletome feels like it's for a different game. Doe any other faction have fate dice?, cycle of corruption?, a path of where the Bad Moon goes, teleporting through Wyldwoods, massive deep strike or exploding on death, Command Points but not Command Points? Yeah, lots (dare I say most) factions have rules and abilities that always out from the core rules. That is AoS, and quickly seems to be the way of GW games I as more 9th ed 40k codices are released. If anything, generating Mortal Wounds, like S2D with re-rolls, are more in line with the core rules as they don't really bolt-on a new system/mini-game. I would Lumineth are more line with AoS core rules than many other factions because of that. They don't really create a whole new game mechanic. Rather they seem to short circuit the ones that exist already. That may be part of the reason some take issue with them. People better understand Lumineth mechanics and their interaction that makes better use of the rules might seem more threatening than some arcane add-on system of another faction (especially if that faction is well known to be suffering right now). Don't know if there's any truth to that, just musing the idea a bit.

I disagree with the premise that Mortal Wounds on a 5+ not needing LoS is bonkers. One, maybe I am doing it wrong, but I haven't set up a table (I usually host and use my terrain) that LoS made much, if any difference. Because I see/saw AoS as bathtubbed rank and file game, I mostly left the center of the table pretty empty and use about half the amount of terrain as I would in 40k. The Range is far more of an issue to me. Especially if players are going to see the smallest table size as the best table size. Two, without support/spells we are talking about a 150pt unit that can generate between 1 and 10 MW [correction: 1-9 for the 1st ten Sentinels] (or any damage for that matter) with likely output is a little less than 2 MW per attack. Other than lesser Heroes (which is why I was a proponent to Lookout, Sir! working like it does in 40k) it is in reality, minor chip damage. With Power of Hysh, casting value 6, (I think it should be casting value 7 since Aetherquartz is a thing), it is not going to happen every round despite how it often gets framed that it will. When it does, that means a pretty reliable 2 MW from every 150 pts. That's all Sentinels really have going for them. They can't even be expected to hold ground for very long, nor generate that much more damage with Aimed shots as they are limited to 10 damage/150pts regardless of source. Taken in low numbers (20 or less) and without additional support Wizards, they aren't going to be much of a factor. When you are talking about 80 (1200 pts for a conditional Batteline unit), how is that not a skew list? Which is what I am saying. Skew lists are almost never fun. Your opponent can either counter the skew in which they win, or they can't counter it in which the skew wins. That's not necessarily the Sentinel warscrolls fault save the unit having a sort hypothetical snowball effect. I say hypothetical as I don't know how universally powerful such a list might be. Like all skews, I can see a lot of pretty easy counter army lists (my basic S2D being one) which is par for the course of skew. But I am sure there are more (typically good ol' Take-All-Comers (TAC)) that might struggle. Sadly, TACs suffer the most from skew. Like I said, not worth playing as that is what skew lists do. Best to decline a game with such a player and politely inform them win or lose that their army list is very unlikely to produce an interesting or enjoyable game. I would just hope that isn't a new player that somehow thought buying near $500 US of the same models was a good idea. Which just doesn't seem likely to me. That seem far more like that guy that likes winning but doesn't want to put the effort in to do so. So they'll brute force wins through a skew list in a causal/new player environment. Hardly something I want to spend a few hours to indulge. Also, something, I don't think reasonable Lumineth players should be punished for by making Sentinels ineffective outside taking hordes of them.

My opponents so far haven't had an issue with my Lumineth army in terms of difficulty nor fun. Of course, I run an army list built entirely around Alarith and don't support my 20 Sentinels (so little MW output usually to the point it isn't a concern of my opponent so far). The most frustrating thing is probably the fact much of my army has -2 Rend immunity which I am sure opposing armies pay a premium points cost for. I know my DoT opponent much prefers facing my Lumineth over my Slaves to Darkness since my LRL barely have any MW protection and practically all my S2D does making much of their army seeminly impotent. It probably helps I don't usually have access to much of the Lore of Hysh spells, and without Teclis; Total Eclipse is an unreliable cast to increase the 1 CP cost of Command Abilities to 2 CP. So there is certainly a way to have fun with and play against Lumineth without it being miserable. Personally, I find LRL the idea of LRL more fun to play against than MoN with all the tokens, cycle of corruption, damage bouncing off them and all that other stuff they have (been a long while since I played them) all of which was like having teeth pulled on my end. I do think a lot of this NPE can be sidelined by the usual, 'talk with your opponent on what kind of game you are looking for'. The 'NPE' Lumineth army build seems pretty apparent to me. If it really is a causal game, maybe ask your opponent to only use either Power of Hysh or Lambent Light on any give unit of Sentinels if that is a concern. Maybe go with a smaller points game to draw down a few units of Sentinels if the opponent went all-in on them. Though, I think I would consider avoiding anyone that goes with 40+ Sentinels as I would with anyone that has a skew list. As skew lists tend to be more of a rock-paper-scissor/coin-toss affair anyways and not worth the bother to play the game out. Bottom line, not all Lumineth armies are this miserable experience. It is my general rule-of-thumb that as armies approach their most optimized or go skew they become less fun (unless winning is the only thing a player finds fun which isn't my mindset) by their very nature. If you are playing in a group that leans heavy on optimization (it's not necessarily competitive even though that is what most call those communities) then I would expect NPE be fairly common anyways. Especially if a player isn't of that mindset. However, if you are playing with like-minded individuals, I do think you could politely ask to tone down things you find to be NPE. Since what is and isn't NPE may have some basic tenets but will vary from person to person.

@Kitsumy There's no need to be so aggressive. The fable of the Sun and the Wind comes to mind.

Depends, if Churchil was an immortal deity-like individual of the British people with supernatural powers useful in combat, and his mere presence created a zealot like morale like any AoS god, I think it would be strange he wasn't there. However, since we live in a world where the more political power one possess has no bearing on combat prowess (usually the opposite given the time and age of such individuals), I think it was a good call a heavy set, 70-year-old man wasn't allowed to be there despite any wishes he may have had.

As I am sure you are aware, the games of Age of Sigmar are usually some epic, mythological battle of the ages well beyond the tens of thousands petty tribal warfare of duped followers of Chaos. Most mortal tribes are not even aware of the dark gods. Just like in 40k, where no cares all that much about Planetary Defense Force battles which really do make up the bulk of combat, one-sided though it may be, in the galaxy. Even historical games tend to focus on big battles such as Normandy landing instead of some skirmish in the Hürtgen Forest in November of '44. On a narrative level, a player should be honored that their army poses such a threat that the very gods of the setting themselves had to intervene. Which is the main reason that Teclis, Archaon or even Abbadon in 40k are rarely included in my own army lists. I don't control my opponent's army though just my own. They are free to construct it how they like, and I will deal with it as best I can with my own.

Well, I created the thread to pull off-topic posts from the very, very bloated Rumor Thread. At the same time, I did want to hear about other people's thoughts on the matter, good or ill, experienced or feelings. Basically the same kind of stuff in the posts that rejuvenated the thread and I responded to. Which through some least recent posts I discovered a few things. Firstly, that Sentinels aren't overpowered... at least not on their own they're not. I broke down exactly what Sentinels did on paper and added what they did in the few games I played. That immediately was moved to Sentinels+Teclis+Umbral Spellport. Which was a long ways from the meager 20 aelf archers I use in my Ymetrica Alarith army. Which after looking at the combination, yeah; it could be overbearing in a casual (the level I tend to play) not particularly serious competitive scene. I would offer that is true for a number of factions in any Games Workshop past, present and likely future. If a group wants to play 'casual' with GW games that's always going to be a thing. It's up to the players that fortune currently favors to tone their lists down so the factions on the bottom of the current power cycle have room to not build the most optimized possible army they can to keep up. This really shouldn't be that new of information for anyone in the GW walled garden after about half-a-year. If we are talking competitive, optimize your army list as much as possible. As mentioned, demonstrated and from what I have glanced at Lumineth haven't been taking that scene by storm like Iron Hands space marines did late 2019 or even Dark Eldar have been prior to the most currently rules change (which is too new to know the effect yet). It really seems to me those calling Lumineth (especially Sentinels) overpowered haven't really had tournament data to support to any great extent (at least I haven't seen it). Forgive me if I am wrong here, but I feel that some are trying for Sentinels (or whatever Lumineth combo) are OP for casual or new player games. Don't get me wrong, I am aware there are gradations between LVO and not keeping score beer & pretzels. However, doesn't it feel like stuffing 10lbs of stuff into a 5lb bag sometimes? What I mean by that is, would be Lumineth players aren't exactly going to stumble upon the more powerful combinations right away. And when players do, those elements that make those Lumineth lists are pretty easy to spot. If we all (mostly all) agree that GW does a poor job at balancing their games. Why would it be a faux pas to inform your opponent that using that, let's say netlist for lack of a better term, doesn't look like it is going to be a lot of fun. Or even better after experiencing it, even for just a couple turns in a test game, asking one's opponent maybe not cast Power of Hysh AND Lambent Light on your big group of Sentinels since that's a little more optimized than the other army was built/faction can currently handle. I mean if players are playing in a truly casual environment that should be a possibility ( I do understand the inherent difficulty of asking your opponent to tone down their list too). Certainly better than complaining online when (as I understand it) hasn't shown the faction to be competitively overbearing yet. Isn't playing highly optimized, competitive games sort of negative play experiences by their very nature with GW games? Again gradations, GW should balance their games better and a bunch of woulda, shoulda, couldas. I do understand. I got ripped apart yet again in 40k this weekend in a Black Legion (me) vs. Thousand Sons game. I think I caused 1-2 damage all game long with any weapon with Damage 1 and was torn apart my MW (1 wound space marines aren't fun then). Despite my inability to figure a counter to Thousand Sons, they aren't OP. I am pretty sure they are in the same power band as generic Chaos Space Marines. I just really struggle facing them. I always do against high spell casting anything. I also want to mention, I am really trying here to understand the problem/perception with Lumineth. Before lock-downs and 40k 9th ed, I was playing a Primaris space marine army. I definitely could see where it was OP with the second 8th ed codex. I didn't (and still don't) use chapter supplement stuff and made sure my army lists were at least 10-15% under the agreed point to try and have fairer games. However, I had also been playing a pure Primaris army when Primaris weren't very good, and they didn't really have the data sheets (Shadowspear stuff and earlier) to support a decent army list yet. Which meant I had to be excellent at what did have (it helped Primaris are easy to play). So when I did have a good army, I had seriously tone it down as I really understood how to play my army before the 'broken' codex. Even now, there are internet parrots claiming all space marines are broken OP (and were through all of 8th ed), when really only Blood Angels and Dark Angels are mostly currently holding onto top tier status as I remember the tournament data correctly. I don't want to go through a couple of years people thinking my Lumineth army is broken OP (like I did with my marines) because they read online in a bunch of places they were even when either time and/or substantial competitive game data says otherwise. And the general fan hate sets in on the faction as a whole. I have found this thread illuminating (pun intended). I don't always agree with 'Con' side of where Lumineth stand in power, but I can say I do better understand why it is being said better than I did. By that same coin, I don't expect any to be converted by on the 'Pro' side. Though, I hope the details of that perspective is at least considered.

I did a quick list build for my S2D. The points didn't really go up much for the things I use from the points as they are listed in my Battletome. Foot Heroes went up 5, but I don't think the Karakadrak Lord returned to 250. So in terms of points I don't have to remove anything. However, with Chaos Warriors being bought in blocks of 10 instead of 5, I either have to go up to 20 or down to 10. Unless their re-roll saves applies all the time (and maybe even if does), I don't think 10 Warriors is going to cut it. I found that those first 6 warriors with their re-roll save allows them to weather early game when everything is at full strength and really hit hard. However, going with two groups of 20 means cutting back on my two groups of 10 (probably broken into MSU) Chaos Knights have to be trimmed back, or I can't take my Chaos Shrine. Twenty Warriors also means potentially a lot of lost damage generation. Which my army is already super low at creating. I know I should try and keep the shrine over most everything else, at the same time that really throws off the symmetry of my army. I know one of my opponents liked playing 2500 points in 2nd ed. I might make my S2D my 2500 point army.

I haven't used Teclis and haven't looked too far into his warscroll. So I basically stuck with Searing Light, Arcane Bolt and random MW from an undetermined spell. The idea being Teclis isn't likely to go full MW combat wizard, reserving some spells for support/utility. He can cast Searing White Light which on 1 does nothing, 2-4 does d3 and 5+ does d6. I get confused between 40k and AoS, but I am pretty sure he can only cast that once as it is a spell. He can cast Solar Flare but that is withing 10". As I understand it, the spell has been cast, so the spell portal doesn't extend the range as the portal doesn't count as the caster, and it says withing 10" of the caster specifically. Likewise, he can cast Living Fissure for units within 9" for another potential d3 also with a chance of failure even after casting. Also, Assault of Stone for a 1 MW. Finally, Arcane Bolt for some damage. I don't have the new stuff at all so I don't know what kind of additional MW spells Teclis has access too. As demonstrated, much this damage can be reduced or nonexistent even with Teclis automatic casting rolls. Which I think are uncommon as it is, needs to be considered when coming up with an approximate amount of MW per round. I am being less disingenuous and more ignorant of the full capability of Teclis. So I don't see any need for your aggressive stance. If you care to, you can very much enlighten to how and how many Mortal Wounds Teclis can produce per round. Bonus internet points if you can break it down between beyond 18" and within 18". With that information I can adjust my calculations. That why I included that first line in my last post. It is also why I tried to show where I was getting these numbers, I have just started to get games in, and I really didn't bother looking at the Lumineth rules until then. These kinds of things aren't the sort of things I worry about. I only bring it up as my experience with the 20 Sentinels I have is very underwhelming compared to the concern they generate online. As I said, Teclis and a bunch of Sentinels can generate enough Mortal Wounds to be concerned. I didn't even touch regular damage they also cause because the discussion was centered on MW and the number of regular wounds is a fraction at range (i.e. more than 18".) The reason I am writing these posts isn't in some attempt to go, "See everyone, Lumineth aren't so bad." It is more, "Huh? Everyone has been crazy about Sentinels, so why did mine do far less than half the amount of damage that my Spirit of the Mountain did?"

Note: I don't usually think about these things so expect some fuzzy (and perhaps incorrect) math here. Teclis, Umbrla Spellportal and 40 Sentinels is like 1300 points right? Teclis can generate about 4-5 MW on average at decent range with the spell portal. Forty Sentinels can generate about 10-11 (6-7 without Power of Hysh about 13 with it getting it spell to work 3/4ths the time). So about 14-16 Mortal Wounds a turn or 70 to 80 a game. With perfect, not going to happen in 10,000 years luck, like 46 or so MW a turn, or 230 MW over the course of the game with little ability to generate (all coming from Teclis) any more damage period. Which sounds like a lot, and it is. However, that damage is without absolutely no interference from the opposing side, assuming there's always a target and no overkill. Though, I suppose that last one can be ignored as a unit is just as likely to suffer at least that many to Battleshock. That 1300 points can practically do nothing else (well, Teclis also provides a lot of utility). Sentinels certainly can't be counted on to hold ground without support or provide the smallest of speed bumps. What could an opposing army get for 1300 points? I know my Slaves to Darkness could easily buy more wounds than those 1300 points could possibly dish out. I could easily buy 70 Chaos Warriors with 1300 points. That's 140 wounds. Ignoring the Runic Shield option, assuming that all Heroes are killed taking away any chance of Chaos Undivided battleshock immunity and any other defensive save, I have almost double the number of wounds that those 1300 points are going to typically dish out. When I think OP particularly concerning damage dealers, I would expect point-for-point to be absolutely tabled over the course of game not just have less than 2/3 my wounds removed. I completely understand the loss of control since neither distance nor regular Saves do much to mitigate this damage. There certainly is a sense of powerlessness. At the same time, I think opponents can do fine so long as they don't get shaken from this, and build their list with an understanding that about 75 wounds are going to be taken from any part of it over 5 turns of play. I am sure this leaves some factions twisting in the wind as 75 wounds are not easy to come by, but not all factions. Perhaps this kind of thing comes a little easier for me. As much as I want to pretend to be a striker player dealing massive amounts of carnage to my opponent's army. I find myself going for a more defensive, attrition style play. It isn't uncommon for me to win games while having a far greater dead pile. The change in 40k that tabling doesn't mean winning was a massive boost to how I play most of the time. TL:DR: The Lumineth have all sorts of crazy and creative ways to cause not a lot of damage all things considered. The LRL have all manner of attacks that defy the core rules, however; most of them also don't really do that much damage per point spent to cause it. Don't let the fact that being powerless to prevent it blind you to how much damage is actually being done. What I am not saying is that everything is fine and dandy, just that I get the impression people are dazzled by the manner the damage is done without considering the actual ramifications to the game state.

My first army is Slaves to Darkness. Disciples of Tzeentch and Kharadron Overlords are the faction they have played the most. Getting pelted with ranged attacks while slowing moving across the battlefield with nothing in return for a while ranges from annoying to frustrating. While it is easy to let the feels bad get to you, that can't interfere with losing sight of your plan to victory. Power of Hysh (the 5 instead of 6 MW thing) is a casting value 6 spell. Cast natively by the Sentinels that's about a 2/3 to 3/4 success rate. Like all spells, subject to unbinding attempts and now miscasts. Reliable, but not automatic. Lack of Line of Sight really doesn't matter much, at least in my games, everything is mostly out in the open save using magic/special abilities. Their range 30" is extensive, but the Lumineth is counting more on generating Mortal Wounds than actually hitting normally. So a unit of 10 is generating some 2-3 MW with maybe a single regular 1 wound, no Rend. Beyond lesser Heroes (like my S2D's poor Chaos Lord on foot) it really isn't going to raise a welt on much without spiking. All at the price of 140 points and as a conditional Battleline unit. Maybe the unit could stand to go up 10 points. Though, I feel that Lumineth don't much all that much on the table as is. Looking at my Chaos Warriors, or their counterpart SCE Liberators; you could get like 7 of them for the price of 10 Sentinels. It would take 10 Sentinels most of a game to wipe 7 Chaos Warriors especially if it is done with aloft attacks (those 30" ranged ones). Since my S2D army is an attrition army, I feel like I can stand to suffer those kinds of losses and still do pretty well and winning the game. It certainly won't be a pretty victory where I got to feel like my evil fighters brutalized the enemy, but it's still an honest win (I get the W, and the LRL force me to take models off the table). I am not necessarily saying Sentinels can't be oppressive. As AoS is [s]now[/s] last week, some factions are hard counters to other factions. I can certainly attest to that as my S2D cannot win an attrition battle with Ossiarch Bonereapers. The Bonereapers are just more optimized for that style of play. So I can see how they might be considered OP in some match ups (like ones that absolutely rely on small Heroes). I don't think it is nearly as extensive as it is made out to be. But maybe that's because I have had to march dudes into a wall of 9 Flamers with their Exalted Flamer ring leader. A few magic arrows feels like spring breeze compared to that. That said, I do think many players and would-be players get far too shaken by actions seem to create an apparent loss of control to prevent/mitigate (as in MW and ranged attacks) which Sentinels do very well. What I am not sure of is if these players are allowing this apparent loss of control to interfere with their situational awareness and game plan. Because at the end of the day, 4 lost wounds per 140 pts/turn is not going to be enough to allow them to automatically win games versus me. Which does make it difficult for me to say Sentinels are OP, at least to the point they get made out to be. They seem to be this mythic AoS boogeyman unit that has yet to leave me that impressed opposing them or even playing them. For reference, the spoiler contains the Lumineth units I most commonly use for composing my armies. Sorry 'bout the shoddy paint job, they're still very much a work-in-progress. Honestly, the Sentinels are have been the closest thing to dead weight except for the Dawnriders as they are kinda points intensive for the speed bump they provide. Sentinels provide a sense of keeping my opponent from getting too comfortable, but they certainly aren't doing any of the heavy lifting in my army.