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Saturmorn Carvilli

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Saturmorn Carvilli last won the day on October 2 2020

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  1. Or some people put spectacle and lore way ahead of the actual game. From the posts of yours I have read, I suspect you value gameplay and balance so much, I am not entirely sure whether you would understand that. Particularly as you seem upset and angry almost all the time here. My GW collections feature a number of codified subfaction paint schemes. Black Legion Chaos Space Marines (~4000pts), Ymetrica Lumineth (~3000pts), Mephrit Necrons (~2000pts), Fallen/30k Dark Angels (~1000pts), Bad Moon Orcs kill team (~500pts), Stygies VIII Admech kill team (~300pts), Jormungandr Tyranids kill team (~250pts), Kabal of the Dying Sun or the Falling Moon Dark Eldar kill team (~200pts). Each get played in the subfaction they are painted in. No exceptions. All those kill teams were painted before subfactions were even added to Kill Team. Since most are 'stealth' based factions, the actual rules are pretty bad in Kill Team (some kind of Obscured when more than 12" away usually). If the black and gold box art scheme of Slaves to Darkness ever gained subfaction rules, I'd use them too. I am that committed to lore/narrative over how they rules might fall out. I would prefer my opponent do the same. It does tend to indicate that they value the lore and the narrative of their army as much as a rpg player values their player character to me. At very least, they glanced at the lore part of these books. I suppose I respect the lore far more than the rules of any GW game. That said, I am not going to force their paint scheme to be a straight jacket. People change, rules change, favorite colors happen, cheap E-bay armies happen and a whole host of other things do to. So I keep my mouth shut on the subject and try and remember the subfaction they say it actually is. Because to me, it's just like using big centerpiece, unique character models, I really don't make use of them, but I am not the boss of my opponent's army. Still, I can't help to feel the hobby is somehow lesser for it. Likely because I hang so much on the spectacle and lore side of things and have so little respect for the actual rules.
  2. I don't remember their names, but for the red armor are like beast masters or something and the black armor ones like really hate Chaos and are more likely to not care about collateral damage is what I remember. I can even say the silver and blue Stormcast are like really religious and say something like 'Only the faithful'. You got me on their names, though. That said, I don't think I could even name half the SCE units. Heck, I forgot some factions even still exist in AoS.
  3. Wouldn't Skyport: Barak-Thryng allow KO to field a Carmine Dragon or any other Duardin Monster? If you really want and think Monsters are going to be the tipping point in AoS 3rd edition, you that option if I understand the rules correctly, or you could take Bundo Whalebiter too I believe. I kinda think you might be overvaluing Monsters. I think even without adding a Monster to a KO army their kite mastery leaves them doing okay. I think they have a solid enough Battleline unit (I think they could use more Battleline units myself) with the Arkanaut Company that have seen some aid in the AoS 3 rules as well as tad less growing pains going to the new edition too. I agree with KO, like most AoS factions, could use something to deter MWs as the aethergold standard of damage. I think MW is a simple, important and flavorful way to cover magic/supernatural/energy-type damage in AoS, but in a setting where that is so common, defense should also be decently common that every faction should probably have spell(s), abilities and/or units resistant to it discourage skewing into MW attacks. Even as a LRL player, I would love KO to have something like an energized aethersuit that make the dawi inside pretty safe from MW and even had a chance to reflect it back. I also think that KO could probably use native chaff and/or melee units to round them out. Of course, monsters are always fun. Until then, I don't think the sky duardin are going to greatly suffer under AoS 3rd ed rules. I feel they will stay on the better side but within the fat middle of factions. Honestly, is exactly where I like my factions to be: not suffering near insurmountable rules decencies but not so powerful it's more list than player winning games.
  4. I usually aim a little low on damage as a habit because counting on average can get you in trouble fast. But yeah, what you have is the average. I do see in terms of LRL as melee being more efficient than ranged. Wardens can produce double the number of MW as Sentinels for basically the same points cost. I don't hear much about how they are insane damage dealers. With 3" range they aren't as likely to attacks as most melee, with similar support; they can reasonably charge anything with 18" of them. The difference being that the opponent has a better chance of doing something about it. Which I get the one-two punch of Wardens and Sentinels. You got one unit feeding you MW far away, and then you got another feeding you even more up close. Which if the thing isn't dead, it is certainly crippled to uselessness. It is difficult for me to visualize. On the one hand, my other, first AoS army is almost entirely has a +5 MW save and usually a 6+ damage save (FNP). Facing an army that generates ton of MWs as their path to victory seems like a sure fire way they are going to lose no matter the range they can do it at even with me having none. I do know all too well the being chipped away at ranged thing. I play far number of opponents that have ranged armies, and those ranged weapons often come with Rend -1 with takes more wounds than I would like before I can finally get to them. Maybe all Heroes should have a +5 MW save, I don't know. Also, due to my attrition, often slow moving play style (with both my S2D and Alarith LRL), I am not sure how Wardens, Sentinels and Support cover ground to claim enough objectives to win. Do slowly slog up the board dealing damage taking objectives late game from the now destroyed or hopelessly crippled enemy? Wouldn't that leave their rear exposed for teleport or resistant flankers? I could see such LRL being fine with static objective games, but moving ones they seem like they would still struggle like I have with my S2D army. It just doesn't seem like they have the durability leaning heavy Vanari much of the time. Don't get me wrong, there are a bunch of tweaks I think the Lumineth should have. In general, I think their spell casting values are too low. Especially with all the ways they can reduce them or Teclis not even caring. Even being great archers, I think 24" is a much better range for aloft shots Sentinels and maybe can't move to fire. Lambent Light probably should just be misses to prevent MW fishing. I also wouldn't be bothered if Power of Hysh was radically altered to something like MW in addition to, as that would reduce the average MWs while potentially increasing the number total number of wounds, giving Vanari a bit better chance against horde units. That's still probably too good though.
  5. Can you kindly run me how this is accomplished? Please don't leave out casting failure or total points used to accomplish it if you can. I only request the breakdown of this as it really does sound like some Chaos Space Marine combos that would be devastating if everything lined up correctly, but for everything to line up it both required dice and the opponent work in one's favor. Not exactly something to count on when playing, since is it basically requires laboratory conditions to pull off. I can even help out where I understand it. Please know any mistakes or anything left out is not due to any malicious intent. Rather, I don't play AoS exclusively nor all that often and hardly ever for highly optimized play. Even as a Lumineth (Ymetrica Mountain Temple focused) player, I know little to nothing about wave 2 units or other Great Nations. I am not trying to downplay this, though I will state that my hypothesis is that, 'This combo may be powerful but does include a lot of failure points where either luck, a wiley opponent and/or both could foil it before completing it.' The Units 20 Sentinels (300pts)+ some Lore of Hysh Wizard such as Teclis (660pts old points) or Scinari Cathallar General with the Loremaster Command Trait (140 old points). So somewhere around 350 at the low end with a lesser Hero (5 wounds) General or 1000+ with Teclis on the high end. The Setup During the Lumineth Hero Phase, Power of Hysh (casting value 6, 5 with Aetherquartz or re-rollable with Aetherquartz) allows Sunmetal Weapons cause MW on rolls of 5 and 6s. The Lore of Hysh Wizard then casts Lambent Light (casting value 5 possibly modified with Aetherquartz) is cast upon the Sentinels. During the Lumineth Shooting Phase, the 20 Sentinels attack the said 14 wound Hero. That's 19 attacks. I am going to assume aloft to cover the opposing Hero being at distance or out of Light of Sight. Aimed shots could certainly do a bit more damage. So we are looking at something like 10 successful hits, 4 of them being MW right off the bat. That leaves 9 dice that missed or 15 if the Lumineth player wished to fish for more MWs. For ease, I will say the LRL player goes for the mortal wounds and pick up 3 more with 4 regular successful hits. Those 4 successful hits become 2 successful wounds, Rend 0. Let's say 1 of those wounds does damage. Total damage is 7 MW and 1 regular damage which takes 8 of those wounds off that opposing Hero and is down to 6. For simplicity, we'll have to say that LRL do no more damage to that opposing hero nor tie them up to allow a charge. During the opposing 14 (now 6) wound Hero turn, they [I don't know AoS 3 well yet] don't heal [that's something that Heroes can do right?]. Or they do, and roll poorly gaining 0-1 wounds back. Either way, it doesn't return them to more than half. Now that opposing hero makes a charge within the conditions to allow the LRL player to Unleash Hell. And the Sentinels are likely to cause roughly the same amount of damage (7MW and 1 regular damage). Which does indeed slay that 14 wound Hero. Complications I hope this break down reveals some of the cracks in why this combo is unlikely to be pulled off. Please note, I am not saying that Sentinels are not powerful here. Delivering some 8 damage most of it MWs is going to be tough on a lot of opposing armies even if it isn't focused all into a 14 wound Hero. I just want to illustrate the journey to get there and perhaps point out some failure points of this combo. First and foremost, spells fail. In AoS 3 spell can even harm the caster. Now the LRL do have Aetherquartz to mitigate this one time a game. With the Scinari Cathallar, they might even be able to turn the tables on the opposing army's Bravery. However, that doesn't completely make it safe. Not going with Teclis (which becomes half the LRL army) leaves the Lore of Hysh Wizard potentially and viable sniping target. To be sure, not all factions have access to sniping units and Lookout, Sir! certainly can make it resource intensive to attempt. That doesn't leave it off the table [as much as even I would like it to be]. What's good for the goose is good for the gander when it comes to ranged combat if you have it. Just note, elves and aelves are known for their archery so trying to out do them there is going to be tough. Damage is also an issue. Sentinels have a limited amount of damage they can do. I am not going to argue about it being too much MW, and so I will just assume it is for sake of not wanting to argue about it. Please note, Wardens can easily double the amount of MW that Sentinels can, and with the same sort of Lore of Hysh support can create easy charges (Like with Speed of Hysh). When talking about damage, what I really want to point out is the opposing 14 wound Hero had already taken more than half their wounds in the first volley. If the LRL opponent wasn't able to heal enough wounds back to cover this kind of damage or already weaken the Sentinels, why are they attempting a charge knowing Unleash Hell exists? Surely that is folly. Conclusion Yes, this combo is devastating. It is also resource intensive and wrought with failure points. Some of which are fully within control of the opponent. This break down of the sequence of events is not to demonstrate that Sentinels aren't OP. They can clearly lay down the hurt and a lot of if it is allowed to. Nor was this to demonstrate that Unleash Hell isn't potent. I am sure there will be games where the objective between a player and victory will have Sentinels and Unleash Hell standing between them. This breakdown is more about dismantling the idea that pulling off such a powerful combo is fraught with issues, which in my opinion; make it not as scary to me because if my opponent needs that many things to go right to win, I don't they are going to. I just would like everyone to consider the construction of these combos and any actual applied use in games. Not something that has to go very right to pull off. Which I feel is a sort of hyperbole, and while that will grab attention, it won't strengthen one's argument.
  6. Two to four days wouldn't be too bad if that's all it turns out to be. I had Covid beat me up for 10 days the last few had me in hospital for a couple nights (just on O2, no ventilator). I would caution you and your wife to be careful. I thought I was out of the woods around my day 5. It turned out Covid went from a general flu-like illness to stomach flu-like illness. Then it became a respiratory thing which sent me to the hospital. Afterward, it took an entire week of rest to recuperate enough to barely be able to do my job. I was told I was on the bad side of how Covid effects most people, but I want to give a bit of cautionary advice to have your wife take it easy just the same.
  7. I think you are correct with that. I think some reasons are that AoS unlike 40k had pretty workable core rules at the end of AoS 2nd ed. Warhammer 40k 8th ed was kinda mess at the end. I personally think updating all the codices would have only got the game so far. So a new edition was welcome. Particularly as 40k had seen a jump in popularity and a new edition is usually a good place to jump into the game as the meta is more or less reset to zero so new players don't feel like they are playing catch up. I also think that salad days of 40k happened before the pandemic close downs. Where AoS was experiencing re-newed vigor as the pandemic hit. Maybe that's my personal perception as that was happened to me as I had grown mostly bored with 40k and hadn't yet got that many games of AoS in. In some ways, I do feel cheated out of getting to experience more of AoS 2nd edition. At this point right now, I like AoS 2nd more than 3rd. That certainly can change after I actually play the new rules, but to look at the new rules on paper has me thinking the game is moving away from what I liked about. I don't think AoS 3rd is worst, just not the direction I wanted to go. I am hoping that I come to enjoy, or at very least, tolerate the new rules as I do enjoy the models, setting and local players of AoS a bit more than 40k now.
  8. Dominion was never going to sell anywhere close to Indomitus. Space marines get ragged on constantly on the internet, but they are crazy popular. Mostly with new players as they are the recommended beginner army since they play the whole game and generally are bottom tier. Even Necrons make for a great beginner army both in painting and somewhat in rules. Stormcast are okay as a beginner army, but at the same time, I don't know if AoS needed to worry about that as it is kinda a simpler game, or at least it was. And Kruleboyz are a bit of an unknown on how complicated or not they will be. Though, their models do not look easy to paint to me. Not to mention, there isn't a huge core of AoS customer base that is SCE. I have seen a SCE army is person nor talked to someone that has one. And my area is pretty popular for AoS with at least a couple dozen people with armies. I haven't even seen a new/prospective player talk about Stormcast. Which makes me what to start an army of them all the more, as I can be confident that I won't face a mirror match. I also think timing was an issue. With Indomitus, it was hyped and came out during a period in the pandemic where I believe people were still talking about finally having time and money to collect and paint models. That was, like, a year ago. I definitely don't see memes about that anymore. Maybe I am projecting here, but I think there is a lot of pandemic fatigue that has set in. I haven't got anywhere close to what I hoped to have painted by now. So I don't need to add to the pile of shame. Especially something like Kruleboyz which look like they would take me a while, or at least certainly longer than painting up Necrons would. I think perhaps Kruleboyz weren't the best inclusion in the box either. I mean, sure Destruction needed their due and the models are fine. But they do nothing for me. I suspect I am not alone in that. The Stormcast are Stormcast, and I would like to start an army of them some day. But just looking at the Kruleboyz, I don't think I would have much fun painting them. Not to mention Krulebozy, for someone not really following everything, are an unknown on how they play on the table. Compared to Indomitus with two well known factions both being fairly straight forward to play and a good jumping in point for new players.
  9. This was precisely why I didn't pick up Dominion. The Stormcast were fine, and someday I kinda want to start an SCE army as I haven't seen one in person or even talked to someone locally that has an army of them. I don't really sell part of boxed set I get. It was up to the other half on whether I'd get it or not. Kruleboyz are good-looking models, but they don't move me at all. Plus, unlike Necrons, they look like they will take a long time for me to paint. As someone that allowed their paint projects to get away from them that was an important factor. I agree, but I don't think it was much of a factor. I mean, if my area had people who wanted to stay with 2nd ed I'd probably join them. But since there is a new edition, that's what I'll be playing even if I am not the biggest fan of the new rules right now. Which could change after a few games. If anything, Dominion provides a rule book practically for free given GW's model prices. I personally felt more incentivized to get Dominion for that reason. Now, I am not even sure I will pick up a rule book at all. I can rely of on the free rule set already out and just memorize anything not in it. It isn't like my opponent and I reference the core rules during a game all that much anyways. All-in-all, I agree with Chikout's list. I do think the big factor is Dominion didn't have space marines where Indomitus did. Heck, even the Necrons being crazy easy to paint made the box great for new players to get into 40k. I also think that Indomitus came out in a much better point in time as the pandemic hadn't dragged on like it has now. I can't remember now, but I think the idea that everyone was going to have time and money to paint an army was still around. Now, nearly a year past that, I think the truth has settled in more. I still have tons of pandemic painting projects not done. I don't need to add more as things finally return to normal. I am also painting much less as I am grown sick of painting with little opportunity to actually game. On top of just painting too much as having not much else to do. All things leading me to not want to buy more models.
  10. I play a Ymetrica Alarith focused list (see spoiler for what I like to build from), and that isn't likely to change too much no matter how the rules shake out. I am not as concerned about movement (I am used to slow armies) as I am the loss of the Alarith Temple Battalion (assuming my area sticks with Matched Play). I feel without the re-roll, all that Rend immunity isn't going get me far enough holding ground well enough. I was liking the hammer (Spirits) and anvil (Stone Guard) style my army had. I haven't had much luck with the Dawnriders staying on the table very long. Which was fine. They have worked well enough spread out my opponents forces. Plus, someday I will play against chaff infantry and the Dawnriders will have their day. My Sentinels seem to really only do minor chip damage. Which annoys my opponent, but usually doesn't shake them. I also don't if it will be wise to continue to have both Avalenor and the Spirit of the Mountain in the same list unless I just want to smash the enemy and lose the game on objectives. I know monsters are better, but I don't think I have the bodies to hold out all game long. I haven't yet added anything from wave 2 yet. I think I might finally get around to making use of my 20 Wardens to get more bodies on the field. I might also have to consider more Wizards in general. For a Lumineth player, I actually make use of very few spell casters. My army is still going to be focused on Alarith, just maybe not laser focused like it was. Or like I was planning by picking up another 10 Stone Guard. I think I will play a few more games with the stuff I like to see how it holds up for me first though.
  11. Which is where we approach agreement. I don't know there is much to discuss fixing it, as I sure you are aware; GW is very hesitant to alter warscrolls/datasheet outside a battletome/codex. Unless Sentinels start rocking major tournaments, I don't think we can even expect a further points increase either. So in optimized play one is going to have a plan to deal with them in they are deciding factor in the meta. In other kinds play, best to treat a LRL army list with a lot of Sentinels like any other skew list.
  12. My mindset is that is just the nature of optimized (i.e. competitive) gaming. Could be wrong with that mindset, as optimized play isn't my bag, so I don't give it much thought. The funny thing is, if that is Lumineth's optimized, tournaments are showing the faction to be pretty darn average. I disagree with the idea that LRL's battletome feels like it's for a different game. Doe any other faction have fate dice?, cycle of corruption?, a path of where the Bad Moon goes, teleporting through Wyldwoods, massive deep strike or exploding on death, Command Points but not Command Points? Yeah, lots (dare I say most) factions have rules and abilities that always out from the core rules. That is AoS, and quickly seems to be the way of GW games I as more 9th ed 40k codices are released. If anything, generating Mortal Wounds, like S2D with re-rolls, are more in line with the core rules as they don't really bolt-on a new system/mini-game. I would Lumineth are more line with AoS core rules than many other factions because of that. They don't really create a whole new game mechanic. Rather they seem to short circuit the ones that exist already. That may be part of the reason some take issue with them. People better understand Lumineth mechanics and their interaction that makes better use of the rules might seem more threatening than some arcane add-on system of another faction (especially if that faction is well known to be suffering right now). Don't know if there's any truth to that, just musing the idea a bit.
  13. I disagree with the premise that Mortal Wounds on a 5+ not needing LoS is bonkers. One, maybe I am doing it wrong, but I haven't set up a table (I usually host and use my terrain) that LoS made much, if any difference. Because I see/saw AoS as bathtubbed rank and file game, I mostly left the center of the table pretty empty and use about half the amount of terrain as I would in 40k. The Range is far more of an issue to me. Especially if players are going to see the smallest table size as the best table size. Two, without support/spells we are talking about a 150pt unit that can generate between 1 and 10 MW [correction: 1-9 for the 1st ten Sentinels] (or any damage for that matter) with likely output is a little less than 2 MW per attack. Other than lesser Heroes (which is why I was a proponent to Lookout, Sir! working like it does in 40k) it is in reality, minor chip damage. With Power of Hysh, casting value 6, (I think it should be casting value 7 since Aetherquartz is a thing), it is not going to happen every round despite how it often gets framed that it will. When it does, that means a pretty reliable 2 MW from every 150 pts. That's all Sentinels really have going for them. They can't even be expected to hold ground for very long, nor generate that much more damage with Aimed shots as they are limited to 10 damage/150pts regardless of source. Taken in low numbers (20 or less) and without additional support Wizards, they aren't going to be much of a factor. When you are talking about 80 (1200 pts for a conditional Batteline unit), how is that not a skew list? Which is what I am saying. Skew lists are almost never fun. Your opponent can either counter the skew in which they win, or they can't counter it in which the skew wins. That's not necessarily the Sentinel warscrolls fault save the unit having a sort hypothetical snowball effect. I say hypothetical as I don't know how universally powerful such a list might be. Like all skews, I can see a lot of pretty easy counter army lists (my basic S2D being one) which is par for the course of skew. But I am sure there are more (typically good ol' Take-All-Comers (TAC)) that might struggle. Sadly, TACs suffer the most from skew. Like I said, not worth playing as that is what skew lists do. Best to decline a game with such a player and politely inform them win or lose that their army list is very unlikely to produce an interesting or enjoyable game. I would just hope that isn't a new player that somehow thought buying near $500 US of the same models was a good idea. Which just doesn't seem likely to me. That seem far more like that guy that likes winning but doesn't want to put the effort in to do so. So they'll brute force wins through a skew list in a causal/new player environment. Hardly something I want to spend a few hours to indulge. Also, something, I don't think reasonable Lumineth players should be punished for by making Sentinels ineffective outside taking hordes of them.
  14. My opponents so far haven't had an issue with my Lumineth army in terms of difficulty nor fun. Of course, I run an army list built entirely around Alarith and don't support my 20 Sentinels (so little MW output usually to the point it isn't a concern of my opponent so far). The most frustrating thing is probably the fact much of my army has -2 Rend immunity which I am sure opposing armies pay a premium points cost for. I know my DoT opponent much prefers facing my Lumineth over my Slaves to Darkness since my LRL barely have any MW protection and practically all my S2D does making much of their army seeminly impotent. It probably helps I don't usually have access to much of the Lore of Hysh spells, and without Teclis; Total Eclipse is an unreliable cast to increase the 1 CP cost of Command Abilities to 2 CP. So there is certainly a way to have fun with and play against Lumineth without it being miserable. Personally, I find LRL the idea of LRL more fun to play against than MoN with all the tokens, cycle of corruption, damage bouncing off them and all that other stuff they have (been a long while since I played them) all of which was like having teeth pulled on my end. I do think a lot of this NPE can be sidelined by the usual, 'talk with your opponent on what kind of game you are looking for'. The 'NPE' Lumineth army build seems pretty apparent to me. If it really is a causal game, maybe ask your opponent to only use either Power of Hysh or Lambent Light on any give unit of Sentinels if that is a concern. Maybe go with a smaller points game to draw down a few units of Sentinels if the opponent went all-in on them. Though, I think I would consider avoiding anyone that goes with 40+ Sentinels as I would with anyone that has a skew list. As skew lists tend to be more of a rock-paper-scissor/coin-toss affair anyways and not worth the bother to play the game out. Bottom line, not all Lumineth armies are this miserable experience. It is my general rule-of-thumb that as armies approach their most optimized or go skew they become less fun (unless winning is the only thing a player finds fun which isn't my mindset) by their very nature. If you are playing in a group that leans heavy on optimization (it's not necessarily competitive even though that is what most call those communities) then I would expect NPE be fairly common anyways. Especially if a player isn't of that mindset. However, if you are playing with like-minded individuals, I do think you could politely ask to tone down things you find to be NPE. Since what is and isn't NPE may have some basic tenets but will vary from person to person.
  15. @Kitsumy There's no need to be so aggressive. The fable of the Sun and the Wind comes to mind.
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