AoS 2 - Blades of Khorne Discussion

[Surtur]

8 minutes ago, Rivener said:

I’ve got some math I’ve done on the subject, but it’s not in front of me at the moment. In terms of sweeping statements though, blood warriors do a small number of wounds per point spent on them. For example, a BW 30-man unit costs 520. They do about 7 wounds against a 6+ save enemy, which is optimal prey for them. Divided out and they spend 74 points per wound caused.

 

Calculating in buffs is helpful, but that tide raises all boats. It’s hard to calculate how saves allow them to fight again, and how Gorefists and fight-on-death come into play. With those caveats in play, blood warriors simply don’t measure up to virtually anyone else. 

Well, if you assume that of a 30-man unit 20 Blood Warriors get in (only normal axes, not even the champion, and the enemy unit has a 6+ Save, then their expected damage on the unit (when activating first, no buffs, not even rerolls from double axes or their gorefists included) is 11.1. So it is not that bad. Yes, other units are mathematically better, but many of these have less buffs available, and do not rely on using the no respite rule skillfully. I believe Blood Warriors are not the worst Battleline by far. Look at... Liberators...

[AresX8]

26 minutes ago, Surtur said:

I do not know. Everyone seems to think Blood Warriors bad, but fact is you need Battleline and 3x 6 Juggers, I don’t think that is viable. They totally depend on the charge. You need screens in my experience. Before I was relying on Reavers because Blood Warriors were not efficient, but now... I am considering.

Do you want to charge an object held by 10 Blood Warriors with 5 Wrathmonger behind and a Secrator buffing them? It will eliminate half your unit whatever you throw at them. If not the whole.

Blood Warriors are costed when you factor in just how many damn dice they can throw. We can very, VERY easily get them to 5 attacks per model now, and with Gorefists, it's crazy just how much they can do. Imagine this scenario:

- 6 guys are in range, so 30 attacks. They do whatever they do in that moment in time (I don't subscribe to dice math as such probabilities are best relied upon with thousand and thousands of dice being rolled. We don't roll that much in a single game for statistics to be totally relied upon).
- They're attacked back, let's say, 3 die after saves. That's saves, with possible mortals, then another 15 attacks back before those 3 are removed from the table.

Congrats, you just had a battleline unit do mortal wounds then 45 attacks out of 6 models. 

[Rivener]

8 minutes ago, Surtur said:

Well, if you assume that of a 30-man unit 20 Blood Warriors get in (only normal axes, not even the champion, and the enemy unit has a 6+ Save, then their expected damage on the unit (when activating first, no buffs, not even rerolls from double axes or their gorefists included) is 11.1. So it is not that bad. Yes, other units are mathematically better, but many of these have less buffs available, and do not rely on using the no respite rule skillfully. I believe Blood Warriors are not the worst Battleline by far. Look at... Liberators...

Yep, my original calculation was off by a substantial degree. It’s what I get for talking without my spreadsheet in front of me! I’ve edited it accordingly.

They definitely are usable, and I love them, but they’re not Bestigors. Not that anybody is...

[Grimrock]

From watching the GMG review I think I'm starting to get an idea of how the army is supposed to go together... but I'm not sure if I'm super happy with it or not. There has always been some level of tankiness in the army, and with most of the damage dealers being nerfed into the ground that might be what we have to fall back on. The army has lost most of its speed, and 'wholly within' makes buffing units almost impossible once they've started moving. I'm envisioning some sort of tanky brick that uses forward units to move up the board and body block for the slow-ish backline units that are still capable of putting the hurt out. Maybe something like this:

Bloodsecrator
Slaughterpriest x2
Wrath of Khorne Bloodthirster
Insensate Bloodthirster x2

10 bloodwarriors x3
5 wrathmongers

bloodthirster battallion
host that has the strike twice ability for daemons

Points are in the general area of 2k but it'd obviously need some tweaking. Hitting the enemy with 4 rounds of bloodthirster attacks that all strike before the opponent gets a chance to swing would be back breaking for most armies. 

One of the biggest issues right now is the army seems to have so few reliable ways of putting out damage. Only a few units have rend and most sources of mortal wounds are extremely dicey (hitting on sixes, needing to get a judgement off on a 5+, etc). It's a classic problem with Nurgle, except they at least have consistent ways to put mortal wounds into the backline (wheel and spells), and their tank is waaay better than ours. Skullcrushers/bloodcrushers are an obvious solution to put out highly reliable mortal wounds, but the models are just so freaking miserable to build and paint that I'd rather give up on the game entirely than try to put together a brass stampede. 

[HollowHills]

Mighty skullcrushers being as strong as they are is part of what is putting me off too. I had some before and they are just irritating models to paint from what I recall. I particularly dislike the legs being part of the juggernaut body which basically prevents easy sub assembly painting. 

[kenshin620]

25 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Mighty skullcrushers being as strong as they are is part of what is putting me off too. I had some before and they are just irritating models to paint from what I recall. I particularly dislike the legs being part of the juggernaut body which basically prevents easy sub assembly painting. 

Could always make different mounts I suppose, like maybe thunderwolves, or bullgors with mortals riding on their shoulders, chaos mutated mournfangs.

[Kaz]

5 hours ago, phizzco said:

Seems like everything here has us betting on rolling 6's all day.

😓seems like Gw is really gambling with... Skullreapers, Bloodletters, Bloodcrushers, Wrathmongers (4+ to deal a MW), and quite a lot of different units have that, but at least it means Slaanesh can’t rebuff our hit rolls to oblivion

5 hours ago, Bjornas said:

Also I've been thinking about the Blood Warriors weapon choices. Since we're getting pretty easy access to re-roll to hit through the Slaughterhosts, do you think the double axes will be worth it over the brass knuckles?

I feel that gorefists are best, that chance to deal mortal wounds is not bad, especially because of how it’s unmodified so your enemy can only bypass via shooting or mortal wounds. Plus, you have so many ways to re-roll hit rolls, and there aren’t many battleline that can bounce MWs back. Besides I’d rather take MWs over a tiny chance to do extra damage with no rend. That 4+ wound roll seems quite difficult to get pass... 

 

2 hours ago, Rivener said:

Yep, my original calculation was off by a substantial degree. It’s what I get for talking without my spreadsheet in front of me! I’ve edited it accordingly.

They definitely are usable, and I love them, but they’re not Bestigors. Not that anybody is...

Meh Bestigors seem pretty insane, especially compared to Bloodletters....... how can a goatman with an axe do more damage reliably than a big daemon with a massive anime sword just because there’s more than 10 enemies:/

[Reuben Parker]

One positive I do have for the army is as a lot of the Death Star stuff has been culled maybe a suicide style MSU army can raise from the ashes (which I’m quite interested in playing) especially as the blood tithe table did get better. Wrathmongers although losing a baller ability go down to 140 so instead of throwing them away into big monsters you can now just throw them away into anything. 

 

Blood warriors with fists now also can serve can serve a bit more a suicide roll but the no champion plus on glaive is a downer.  Will have to look at some form of mass small hero and MSU wrathmonger type list. Although will suck on missions like places of arcane power. 

[Kaz]

3 hours ago, Rivener said:

I’ve got some math I’ve done on the subject, but it’s not in front of me at the moment. In terms of sweeping statements though, blood warriors do a small number of wounds per point spent on them. For example, a BW 30-man unit costs 520. They do about 12 wounds, and dividing that out shows their wounds caused per point, in this case 43 points per wound. To put that into perspective, a Khorgorath is 18.4 points per wound caused, and that’s with his new nerfed price.

Calculating in buffs is helpful, but that tide raises all boats. It’s hard to calculate how saves allow them to fight again, and how Gorefists and fight-on-death come into play. With those caveats in play, blood warriors simply don’t measure up to virtually anyone else. 

I feel that Blood Warriors are a very special kind of anvil, it seems like they aren’t damagey enough (look like 40K Khorne Berserkers, hit nothing like them), however they’re not that durable, liberators can get 3+ Rerolling 1s

However, I think we should focus on what makes Blood Warriors different from other factions battleline choices. not many factions can bounce MWs, especially on basic battleline. It’s the reason why I feel it’s better than dual goreaxes, which still depend on your hit roll, wound roll and enemy’s save roll. However, it’s not bad.

then No respite. This is an interesting rule because it makes your blood Warriors very receptive to buffs. I’ve always loved this unit because I feel that they embody Khorne in a unique way, being defensive in their own strange, aggressive, adorably gory way. They won’t tank hits that would kill Sequitors (tbh no one can), they’re not gonna completely butcher your enemies. Maybe see them as a retaliatory unit? One which WILL definitely die, but on the way down will take as many enemies with them as possible. Even better if you piled in and attacked with them first, you’re Getting 2 effective pile in and fights with them now. It’s sad that the goreglaive is weaker, but piling in and attacking twice with it could make up for that. 

They’re slow, so they rarely get the first charge. But whoever does charge them, is in for some pain when they kill the blood Warriors. This does (imho) make them a great screen. Unlike chaos cultists in 40K, who fold REALLY easily while doing little else, Blood Warriors get to hit you back. Sure, Bloodreavers are a lot cheapeR, but they are just gonna die, and that’s it. No hitting back, nothing. It’s easy blood Tithe for you, but it gives the opponent an easier time to smash through your screens and get to your Hammer units. 

Things like Morsarr Guard will certainly obliterate that blood warrior unit, but that unit might just take down 1 or 2 eels when they die. Stuff like charging bestigors and grimghast reapers will hate the gorefists, since they are squishy 1 wound models, so blood warriors can do a serious number on them. 

TLDR: try using blooD warriors with gorefists, as a screen that boldly charges the enemy, and expect them not to kill much, but to give their lives in glorious sacrifice to the Blood God, while dragging as many enemies down to his realm as possible in a blaze of glory;D

[Kaz]

2 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

One positive I do have for the army is as a lot of the Death Star stuff has been culled maybe a suicide style MSU army can raise from the ashes (which I’m quite interested in playing) especially as the blood tithe table did get better. Wrathmongers although losing a baller ability go down to 140 so instead of throwing them away into big monsters you can now just throw them away into anything. 

 

Blood warriors with fists now also can serve can serve a bit more a suicide roll but the no champion plus on glaive is a downer.  Will have to look at some form of mass small hero and MSU wrathmonger type list. Although will suck on missions like places of arcane power. 

This is true! I feel that Wrathmongers can serve as a second line to hit over your blood warrior screens, so when enemies actually charge your blood Warriors, they will accidentally pull the Wrathmongers into the fight. 

Plus, Wrathmongers can help take on armored units while blood warriors protect them. skullreapers  and Skullcrushers blobs can Guard the flanks too. 

Skullreaper MSU looks good because that vicious mutation looks really good when stacked with attacks, and give rerolls to wound, while Skullcrushers/Bloodcrushers look great in large blobs to be a very strong hammer unit. 

Bloodreavers in Goretide could be a really good hammer, as the Command ability (Ever Onwards) massively increases their threat range, and might catch some opponents off guard. It’ll be great forcing your opponent to have to really keep some space between his guys and yours, allowing you to contest objective while threatening him with long bomb charges

[kenshin620]

Another thing I think may be interesting to keep in mind is the eventual Everchosen+Slaves to Darkness update.

Yes I do imagine a good chunk of new things for them will NOT have marks, but I think everything that currently has marks will still use marks and may get buffed. Maybe Bloodmarked Warband will come back! (maybe finally have more cross battalions like beasts of chaos)

 

[Crispin]

Can someone explain to me how the interaction between a Demon with Halo of Blood and an GKoTG with Savage strike would work. Both rules state that the character fights at the start of the combat phase before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase. 

[AverageBoss]

27 minutes ago, Crispin said:

Can someone explain to me how the interaction between a Demon with Halo of Blood and an GKoTG with Savage strike would work. Both rules state that the character fights at the start of the combat phase before the players pick any other units to fight in that combat phase. 

It would be based on whose turn it is, they would decide the order the abilities resolve in.

[ChaosUndivided]

Can you explain that more? Im 5.

[phizzco]

You have to be at least 8.

 

[ChaosUndivided]

I fail blood sacrifice inflict d3 mortal wounds and still die.

Joking aside i don't like the juggernaut models either and i sure ain't running out to buy any to fix my already bloated army now.  But i plan to give this new book a shot.

 

I see potential in these judgments. Im gonna start with the most skull axe icon spammy list i can make, hope they get dispelled so i can reload and fire them off every turn.

[phizzco]

just run 5 slaughter priests and go to town

[Grimrock]

One more idea, even with the nerf wrathmongers are super legit just based on their combat stats. Give them +1 to hit, +1 attack, reroll wounds, and 5 of them are putting out a ton of damage. Take the new battalion that lets them pile in and attack twice and you're looking at a unit that is punching waaay above its weight level at 140 points. You have to do some work to keep them in range of the skull grinder, but it's easy enough if you're parked behind a screen of blood warriors (also in the battalion) or blood reavers. 

[Kaz]

29 minutes ago, Grimrock said:

One more idea, even with the nerf wrathmongers are super legit just based on their combat stats. Give them +1 to hit, +1 attack, reroll wounds, and 5 of them are putting out a ton of damage. Take the new battalion that lets them pile in and attack twice and you're looking at a unit that is punching waaay above its weight level at 140 points. You have to do some work to keep them in range of the skull grinder, but it's easy enough if you're parked behind a screen of blood warriors (also in the battalion) or blood reavers. 

I honestly think Wrathmongers will be used as proper hammers now, and their range makes it viable to run them behind a blood warrior screen (with gorefists to make it extra painful)

what are everyone’s thoughts on the new Skullgrinder? He seems to be a cheap super brutal beatstick, and that extra bravery is  surprisingly good now that we no longer ignore an entire battleshock phase

Would it work to use the Bloodsworn Command trait with a Juggerlord, give blood Warriors or bloodreavers bravery 9, then add 2 (1 from icon, 1 from Skullgrinder?), I feel like that would make them pretty hardy against battleshock(or terrorgheists, for that matter)

[ledha]

9 hours ago, Bjornas said:

Speaking as one inexperienced with playing as any other AoS faction, what exactly makes them weak?

Without the special weapon or buffs, you pay 200 pts for 21 attacks 3+/4+/-/1. They are slightly worse than liberators who are viewed now as a complete joke unit;

At base, they are greatly outpunched by pretty much everything with a similar cost. Of course, no respite help  them a lot, and khorne is about buffing your units trough the roof, but it still sad to see khornate warriors (aka, THE guys everyone should fear to face) have a weaker offensive power than skelletons. Back then, khorne didn't need to pile-up 25 buffs to be as good in melee than the other faction. He was the best, at base.

Edited March 17, 2019 by ledha

[Bjornas]

1 hour ago, ledha said:

Without the special weapon or buffs, you pay 200 pts for 21 attacks 3+/4+/-/1. They are slightly worse than liberators who are viewed now as a complete joke unit;

At base, they are greatly outpunched by pretty much everything with a similar cost. Of course, no respite help  them a lot, and khorne is about buffing your units trough the roof, but it still sad to see khornate warriors (aka, THE guys everyone should fear to face) have a weaker offensive power than skelletons. Back then, khorne didn't need to pile-up 25 buffs to be as good in melee than the other faction. He was the best, at base.

Yeah I remember the days when Chaos Warriors and Knights were the most feared infantry/cavalry in the (WHFB) game. Just look at them now. 😢

Are BoK generally considered an 'easy' army to play compared to others (except for SCE)? Being a flagship army and all. Perhaps they want to keep us simple and mid-tier?

[Sigwarus]

Blood warriors have their place as good screens and Will be invaluable to tackle the FEC meta

[Sigwarus]

This khorne book aint weak despite some comments in this board. Listen to the reviews,  khorne got many ways to improve hiswarriors . 

[Ungface]

So the bloodsecrator doesnt have to place his banner anymore and can run around while still buffing?

[Retro]

13 minutes ago, Ungface said:

So the bloodsecrator doesnt have to place his banner anymore and can run around while still buffing?

Yep, but it is 16" and wholly within now.

Also, no battleshock immunity