How will Games Workshop push diversity in AoS?

[HollowHills]

So in response to the recent BLM protest movement Games Workshop made a statement. Obviously most companies have done something similar, but the part that stuck out to me was the section about continuing to increase diversity in their games.

We have seen this already over the past few years with female Stormcast being introduced in aos 2. Even OBR, a skeleton faction,  now have female units.

Do you think the pattern of an occasional female unit will continue? Or will we also see models specifically sculpted to have features more in common with non white ethnicities? 

We've also seen companies damage their relationship with their audience by pushing diversity in a way which wasn't wanted. For example, the decision to include a muscular transgender character in the last of us 2 rather than focus on the well liked male protagonist from the first game.

Do GW also run the risk of angering or pushing their core audience away? Anyone who has been to a large warhammer event will tell you it's almost entirely white heterosexual men.

What kind of diversity do you want to See? What should they avoid?

[shinros]

Oh here we go, as a black guy I will leave it at this. If GW wants to see more minorities  in the hobby they need to adjust the prices. That's it. Also I'm not going to identify with any character in 40k considering no one is a hero in that setting since the Imperium is a satirical take on the worst parts of humanity. I like the stories in the setting and characters, but I won't identify with them.

Also I play death in AOS. Why? Because I like their models and their narrative. Also out of all the companies I think GW are handling diversity the best, the pencil pushers in the office seem to know what they are doing save the price increase. But what do I know? When I said this apparently I hate myself. 

Also this topic is going to get locked. Fast. I do the hobby to get away from things like this. I hate politics, hate activists (either side) in this modern age. 

 

Edited July 7, 2020 by shinros

[MaatithoftheBrand]

Are you of the opinion that white heterosexual men cannot enjoy engaging with a narrative that includes or even fronts POC, women, and non cis/non straight characters and units? Fundamentally, the story of all of the Warhammer universes is that, to use the 40k tagline, There Is Only War - rather than "pushing diversity" in ways that strain credulity, in light of the eternal conflicts of both settings I would argue that it would actually be less believable to imagine that there are few women and POC and trans individuals on the front lines. Anyone can be Reforged. Anyone can be Annointed by the Dark Gods. Anyone can pick up a lasgun. I think it is a little simplistic to say that this is entirely a thing of "white men play white men, and minorities play minorities", and any individual who finds the idea of a black female Stormcast angering to the point they cannot continue to support GW probably needs to take a look at their decision making process.

In terms of practical choices that GW will make, I imagine that, particularly in Age of Sigmar, we will see more of what they are doing - blending real world cultures and fantasy tropes in new and interesting ways (Idoneth combining elements of Celtic and Greek imagery, the Free Cities having a number of non-European naming conventions and design elements, etc) to do away with some of the one-note cultural and racial parodies and homages we saw in the World-That-Was. We will consider to see factions like the Stormcast and the Aelves and the Aeldari who have none of the cultural hangups around gender and biological sex that often plague "historical fantasy" settings, allowing them to include mixed gender units and the like.

In terms of narrative representation, that will continue to be something of a mixed bag, as all GW/Black Library narratives are. In some novels and campaigns women will be prizes to be won or token "assistants", whereas in others they will be heroes and villains in their own right. Some authors might clumsily put in a LGBT+ character in a way that feels forced, whereas in the next a better writer will be able to introduce an Inquisitor or Techpriest or Fyreslayer using "They/Them" pronouns seemingly effortlessly.

In short, whilst I am sure that for a great many people within GW want to move in this direction for all of the right reasons, GW is also still a company and a business and would not have made the statement if they had not seen what way the wind was blowing and joined the majority of decent people. And, regardless of GWs motives, I cannot help but see it as a chance for more creativity and more stories - stories that you cannot tell when you are limited to white male space vietnam marines and white male fantasy holy roman empire. And more unique and varied sculpts, stories and concepts seems like a net positive to me.

[amysrevenge]

Speaking from my pulpit as a straight white dude, I am in no way pushed aside by the occasional, and by occasional I mean up to and including going over 50%, diverse miniature.  And I'm reasonably upset at the suggestion that I might be so fragile that I would be bothered by increased diversity.

What should they do?  Lots. More.  So much more.  Significant percentages of female models for any races that have sexual dimorphism.

What should they avoid?  Yet another army of buff dudes.  Anything that smacks of stereotypes or exaggerated racial features of RL groups.

[shinros]

15 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Speaking from my pulpit as a straight white dude, I am in no way pushed aside by the occasional, and by occasional I mean up to and including going over 50%, diverse miniature.  And I'm reasonably upset at the suggestion that I might be so fragile that I would be bothered by increased diversity.

What should they do?  Lots. More.  So much more.  Significant percentages of female models for any races that have sexual dimorphism.

What should they avoid?  Yet another army of buff dudes.  Anything that smacks of stereotypes or exaggerated racial features of RL groups.

Goddammit, this is my last post on the topic. I'll believe GW when I see it. In the new 40k trailer I saw a female guardsmen yet they haven't touched Imperial guard for years, but they seem to prefer to constantly update Space Marines because they sell. In my mind corporations only care for the money. It's why they also made that statement, for the money. I'm sure we are going to see more minorities in the hobby even with the price increase! >_>  

Edited July 7, 2020 by shinros

[zilberfrid]

I hope to see more diversity. Painting the same dudes gets boring. Bring back the Warpriest. And especially make a few female dwarves. Some sets can work with just a few faces, like heavily armoured ones. Some do need bodies, like Fyreslayers and Arkanauts. I don't think lgbtq+ can be seen in a model though, and the stories are not my thing.

Edited July 7, 2020 by Gaz Taylor
Removed phrase which can be offensive

[EccentricCircle]

I think they will gradually keep increasing the number of female figures, but its going to be slow. We're already seeing more ethnicities represented in how the models are painted up on package s etc, so I'm sure that will continue. It's going to be a gradual process though, just due to how infrequent some updates are. I was disappointed to go from warcry warbands with their female fighters to getting so Tzeentch acolytes and finding that it had been released long enough ago that it was all blokes, but recently enough that unlike ancient stuff like the chaos warriors there isn't much hope of an update any time soon.

i guess they came out just before which ever pus h led to the more recent chaos stuff being more diverse.

still it'll get there eventually, and diversity in the model range isn't the be all and end all of inclusiveness anyway. The best thing we can all do is be nice to people, be welcoming and friendly. Help people from any background get into the game , and not  create barriers. I think streaming and show games could be a good way to increase diversity in the hobby too. If every battle report is two white blokes it doesn't send a great message, but having people from different communities show caseing the games, is the best way to show that they are for everyone.

As for whether some people will feel alienated and threatened by the drive for inclusiveness...

Sure, I've no doubt a few people will. I do not care, and neither will GW, because it is pretty much besides the point. If anyone rage quits the hobby because they don't want to play with girls or black folks then honestly we're better off without them.

[JustAsPlanned]

I think we’ll see an uptick of female options for miniatures, as well as different paint schemes to represent different skin tones. There’s very little else on the front of the hobby itself that GW can really do. Certain areas of the community on the other hand... well, that’s all I’ll say. I don’t think this really merits any further discussion.

[dekay]

We'll see a progress of what we're already seeing, I'd wager. More female models across the line (as we see in Stormcast, compare the line at the beginning of AoS and now!), more distinctly non-caucasian face sculpts (Sisters of Battle include a few) and, as at this scale facial differences are extremely minor, more studio models painted with varied skintones (which is a good thing as long as they include some tutorials. Different skin tones do wonders for making a unit look more interesting). Gradually this proportion will shift more and more so we'll have much more options for conversions. Everybody wins.

In AoS, I'd expect some female dwarfs next time they get a major release, and if and when they'll make any normal-ish human model, we can be almost certain there will be some women in it.  in 40k I think when Guard infantry finally gets a resculpt it wil be mixed gender as well (like they did with Tau)

[HollowHills]

To be honest with my Idoneth I don't really notice the difference between males and females. They are all very muscular, toned and largely similar in size. They could be transgender too for all I know.

I can't get my head around black elves though. It just doesn't look right to me. I think its because elves are designed to have very slim European features.

If they made new elves, I dont know fire elves or something, that were sculpted to have more African features then I would paint them black as they'd look weird white.

The only thing I would be sad about would be if they adopted a policy of having every unit be mixed racially and gender wise in a way which doesn't necessarily make sense or look unified. I think for some, like chaos marauders or free city guard,  that would make sense but for more isolated cultures it would be a bit odd.

[Dukeus]

Well good thing about the hobby is you can paint them in every colour you like. ;). 

But i want a female drakesworn templer or dracoth rider to lead my Extremis chamber. So more female models for stormcast are always welcome. 

By the way there are a lot of female models, little dudes, giant dudes, fat dudes, ugly dudes, all kind of elves,.... and more then 140 coulors to give them the skin tone you prefer. If someone feels offended about GWs Model Range. Well. Get another Hobby i guess 

 

 

[Mirage8112]

2 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

The only thing I would be sad about would be if they adopted a policy of having every unit be mixed racially and gender wise in a way which doesn't necessarily make sense or look unified. I think for some, like chaos marauders or free city guard,  that would make sense but for more isolated cultures it would be a bit odd.

I second this. I like a little sprinkle of diversity here and there as much as the next guy, but not everything needs parity. I’d very very much like to see entire female regiments or units (like the sisters of the thorn) with the same going for groups of color.  I painted my hell-striders with dark complexions and they look great on the tabletop.   

[mojojojo101]

I think they will be just continue to do what they have been doing mostly.

I think female options is a relatively easy thing to do as is painting models in a more diverse set of skin tones.

I think other forms of diversity takes a little more wiggling although I don't see why would couldn't see references to ******/bisexual characters in batteletomes/other stories. I don't think that should be particularly controversial but no doubt some people will get their knickers in a twist about it.

I would urge GW to think a little bit bigger than just models/vague references though. Fostering the hobby as a whole as a place of escapism and safety for everyone should be a genuine goal. I am not sure how you go about that though. [FWIW I have found the hobby significantly more welcoming and inclusive than when I played as a teenager].

Also as it was mentioned; the Last of Us 2 controversy was a fantastic reminder why I stepped away from video games / wider gaming culture.

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
 

A few things...

1) Bare in mind that some of the stuff you want to discuss may be offensive to others, so really think about what you are writing. I believe most of you will not want or intend to be offensive but some of the things you may say can be offensive to others. So just think before you post.

2) GW are making efforts to change diversity in their models, artwork and background. It’s not going to be perfect overnight but they are trying.

3) It’s your models so paint them how you want.

 

[NkfPanda]

Bruce Buffer: "Heeeeereeee we go!"

 

I love my fishy underwater aelves. If someone doesn't like my fish aelves that is ok too. If someone wants to play their Lumineth Aelves that identify as Idoneth Deepkin that is fine as long as they follow the rules in the books as Lumineth Aelves via the battletome. Proxying is ok, we can agree to that no problem. If someone else doesn't want to proxy that is fine with me as well. 

 

On a serious-esque note if someone values diversity in their hobby that is fine. I value diversity in magical spells and creatures and monsters for my little plastic toy game I enjoy called Warhammer. I love vampires and elves and dwarves the most; if someone likes to diversify their models with different genders and skin colours and that makes them happy and relate to the game more that is awesome. I think diversity in Warhammer is a great thing because part of the fun is relating to the models and lore. As mentioned before they are your models so paint them how you wish and what makes you happy. 

[Chikout]

I always think these arguments have it backwards. Gw needs to stop forcing a white male centered focus in the setting. It simply doesn't make sense in the settings of both their universes. The Imperial guard and the freeguild are both classic examples of this. The 40k imperial palace is in the Himalayas so if anything wouldn't we expect rather more Asians in the game? We have a female khorne hero but no female reavers. How does that work? 

I do think that gw has made some fairly good progress though. The warcry warbands in particular have a very nice range of body types that only enhances the feel of fallen society that they are going for. I would love to see a revamp of the Imperial guard and freeguild range to better reflect the diversity of the setting.

As for the last of us thing. The last of us 2 is the best selling game of the year on the uk despite the full details of the controversy being known far ahead of the game's launch. The vocal minority clearly doesn't represent the majority opinion. 

[Icegoat]

All model diversity is actually great the problem is I've shown countless people over the years warhammer models and the warhammer hobby and no matter how much convincing and persuasion I've only ever been able to get a few white Male friends to play or even be slightly interested. I can say honestly say that isnt because there wasnt enough female/ethnic warrior armies. It seems to be the actual gameplay and game sadly that puts most people off rather than the miniatures.

As for diversity on gws part I mean there are multiple aos armies with female models now and a models ethnicity is decided mainly by its painter so I think they are very much headed in the right direction. Not sure if it will gain them huge followings in markets they dont already have a share in though.

[Sinfullyvannila]

I would expect we don’t see much on the model front for a while since those have a huge lead time. I think we’re going to see new Astra Militarum Tripp’s kits soon.

 

It’s probably going to be mostly seen through its short stories and art; and then trickle in through the model ranges.

[Sinfullyvannila]

1 hour ago, dekay said:

In AoS, I'd expect some female dwarfs next time they get a major release,

Are Duradin sexually dimorphic?  In lots of fiction; dwarves aren’t.

[MaatithoftheBrand]

16 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Are Duradin sexually dimorphic?  In lots of fiction; dwarves aren’t.

I believe in the Fyreslayers stories that BL put out early on the female Fyreslayers are less bearded (though still have at least downy facial hair from memory?) and the main character spends some time admiring his fiance for her feminine qualities which are not traditional Western standards of beauty and very Dwarven - would need to flick through it to be sure though. So I think, yes, Duradin are sexually dimorphic

[LuminethMage]

The Soulbound RPG has several female duardin. Here is a slayer. The RPG is developed together with GW, it's not something they push just by themselves. 

 

[PlasticCraic]

4 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Are Duradin sexually dimorphic?  In lots of fiction; dwarves aren’t.

Yep, in the White Dwarf issue that covered the Vostarg lodge in detail (including new rules), there was a short story that was explicitly about this topic. 

Duardin are definitely sexually dimorphic.

[readercolin]

I'm going to be honest - I paint my models with white/off white faces, because that means that the eyes don't stand out as much, and its less obvious how badly I screwed them up.  I tend to prefer armored helmets though, because it hides my terrible painting skills better.

From a GW standpoint though, here is what I would want from them:

More tutorials on different skin colors.  I mean the ones in the books.  Sure, a few of them have tutorials for different colorations, but not all of the battletomes do.  Yes, the traditional witch elves are pallid flesh tones, but if someone wants their bronzed flesh, or black skinned witches, I would hope that all future battletomes have a step by step painting instructions for how to pull that off (ok... for the armies that have skin showing).  Speaking from battletomes that I have, the Lumineth Realm Lords only have pale flesh, Cities of Sigmar has pale flesh and dark flesh, Slaves to Darkness have grey/dead flesh, pale flesh, another variant of pale flesh, and a bronzed flesh, and the Stormcast battletome has a white flesh and a black flesh.  I think that there needs to be a bit more variety in here, and each faction should have a range from white to pale, to bronzed, to black with examples in there for how to pull off that paint job.

More female models.  More specifically, non-sexualized female models.  The newer female stormcast are great examples of this - yes, they are ladies, but they are still wearing their full armor and are ready to go into battle.  The witch elves... not so much.  But they should get more female models added whenever they re-visit ranges (ex. cities of sigmar), and there should especially be some female dwarf models made - seriously, its getting a little ridiculous now.

As far as lore, I'm not going to comment.  I don't read 40k at all, and the only AoS lore I read is what I get from skimming through the army books - aka, not much.  If they do a good or bad job there, I'm not going to notice, so I can't comment on how they are there.

[zilberfrid]

5 hours ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Are Duradin sexually dimorphic?  In lots of fiction; dwarves aren’t.

That dwarves are not sexually dimorphic in some fantasy stems from a single throwaway line in by Tolkien stating that female dwarves dress the same way as males when travelling, so non-dwarves do not recognise the difference. The dwarves also armour that can protect against fire drakes, so nothing would be visible of the dwarf (male or female) underneath that, if that's the chosen outfit.

Warhammer's dwarves are dimorphic, in the (ancient) female dwarf models, depictions and descriptions. 

This is a stereotypical model, depicting a cliché opera singer, but it's not sexualized, fully armoured (see the chain mail under the overcoat) and depicting an important character in the lore. And the male models from that time are similarely exaggerated. There were also female dwarven adventurers. In their own clumsy way, GW used to be better, up to and including female space marines. Not speaking about the sculpt quality of those though.

Edited July 8, 2020 by zilberfrid

[Beastmaster]

In the Warhammer online pc Game, there was the possibility to play most characters as female. And many players (predominantly male, I assume) used this opportunity. Maybe the players are much more advanced than GW thinks?