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Mirage8112

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Mirage8112 last won the day on May 27 2019

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  1. Mancunian carnage: 70 man tourney, 1 Sylvaneth player who finished 5th. 6 bows, alarielle and warsong with 3 tree rev units bwraith and some espells
  2. The list went 4-1, took 5th place and Best Order General. The 1st place list was a TLA, Durthu and Yndrasta in a Living Cities list. details here: Goonhammer Sylvaneth seem to be doing very well at the moment. I’ve seen a lot of super positive feedback from players who are seeing lots of wins, and now we’re seeing very respectable placement at tournaments.
  3. @Havelocke I greatly appreciate the effort you’ve taken thus far, and I’m sorry its taken me a few days to respond (baby stuff). I know it’s been a couple of days since the topic trailed off and most everyone else has moved on, but since you asked me a specific question, I feel compelled to give you answer. At this point, I feel like we are getting pretty close to nailing down the exact nature of our disagreement on the matter, and I very much enjoy these types of “high-level” rules discussions. So I’ll just address the points you made to me, and let the points you made to the other posters fall by the wayside. I will assume that you know your mind well enough to accurately summarize your own position. But I’m finding some difficulty fitting my position into the format you’ve provided. I think it might make more sense if go through the rest of your post first, and see if I can articulate the differences between our positions. First, I think we should make a distinction between prohibitions and restrictions, particularly when we use the term “permissive ruleset”. There is a distinct difference between a permissive ruleset with restrictions, and a prohibitive ruleset. This is because in a permissive ruleset, a restriction only exists in order to define the boundaries of a legal action. I.e. you can shoot, but only 20”, you can run, but only D6. You can claim cover, but not if you’re a monster ect. Ect. The only purpose restrictions have in a ruleset of this type is to clarify the scope of an action, not to prohibit an action in the game. This useful because saying “you can shoot” without saying “how far” means you could in theory, shoot across the tables into other games. Even “global” abilities like Kroak’s “Supreme Master of Order” ability still specifies that it applies only to “the battlefield”. All effects have restrictions in the same way that all squares have sides. This is opposed to a “prohibitive ruleset”, such as the Law, where a litany of actions are declared “prohibited” under some type of penalty. This is why Age of Sigmar does not tell you that you “may not flip the table”, or “punch your opponent in the face”, because the ruleset doesn’t bother to define all the things which you “cannot do” in a match. Age of Sigmar has a finite list of actions from which you can choose. So while you might be able to say “prohibitions exist” they only exist within the scope of available actions, not in-and-of themselves. I think the highlighted statement is one of the major problems I have with your position: While separating an ability into two separate rules allows you to neatly articulate the scenario as a conflict between two “rules”, the core rulebook does not make that distinction. From 1.6: “Every warscroll includes abilities, each of which has an effect. When in ability is used its affect is applied. in addition, most effects have restrictions.” The section from the core rules above, it is clear that it refers to the use of an ability as “an effect” and not a “rule”. This important because the margin note addresses a conflict between ability effects and the core rules, and not a conflict between “two rules”. It also highlights both “abilities” and “effects” (indicating these are keyword-esque game terms), clearly making a distinction between rules and ability affects. It also is clear that the restrictions are actually a component of ability effects. Effects and restrictions are treated as a single thing: restrictions are part of an effect. In fact the language treats restrictions that accompany ability effects in the same manner as borders of an object. Would we consider the border an object as something distinctly separate from an object? Would you consider the skin of soap bubble (the border that separates “inside” from “outside” as distinctly separate from the bubble itself? The core book is clear that the term “rules” refers to the core rules. In fact this is the only place I can see where GW refers to something as a “rule” (as abilities are always refers to as effects). The section I have referenced before (regarding the hierarchy of rules and ability effects) only refers to ability effects that contradict the core rules: “If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence.” So the question is not “do these two rules conflict”, because a “rule” only refers to the core rules themselves. And it would be unlikely that our dispute stems from an internal inconsistency within the ruleset itself. So, in light of the absolve we might amend your statements to say: “In this case, we have to look at whether the disagreeing rules are [a permission or a restriction]. If the disagreeing rules are [a permission], the action is legal. If the disagreeing rules are [a restriction], the action is illegal.” “The zoning rules on our wyldwoods are a case of disagreeing [restrictions]. We have permission which makes it legal to place the wyldwood (any wyldwood ability), and [two restrictions] which make the legal action illegal under certain circumstances (wyldwood ability restrictions plus GHB restrictions)... If the conditions of either [restriction] are met, then the rule takes effect and the action becomes illegal. From here, you continue: And here’s the rub, because I don’t think your wrong. It’s very clear that you can play in a manner where neither rule is ignored, (a fact I’ve never denied) and place a wood legally according to both sets of restrictions, but you’ve not shown why the rules compel you to do so. This is important, because the crux of your argument isn’t that we can play in manner where both rules are satisfied, it’s that if we can, we must. To date, I’ve not seen any rules reference from you that supports the idea of this obligation. So again, while you can show that it is possible to execute an effect in a manner that does not contradict the core rules, we still don’t have any indication that we are obligated to execute an effect in that way. But we do have multiple examples where GW has given preference to effects (including their innate restrictions) over rules. We’ve already mentioned the insight blurb in the margin which clearly says effects take precedence over rules. Furthermore a little further down the same page, we have yet another example where gw specifically articulated it preference for effects over rules: “If the effect of an ability modifies a core rule, then all restrictions that apply to the core rules still apply unless the effect specifically notes otherwise.” GW has outlined two scenarios for us: In the event that a permission from an ability violates a restriction from a core rule, the effect takes precedence. If the effect modifes a core rule, then any restrictions to that core rule still apply unless specifically stated otherwise. It has also explicitly outlined one scenario where ability effects do not take precedence over the core rules in 1.6.5 (units cannot fight more than twice in a single phase) and none of our discussions revolve around this single exception. So here, in reference to the Treelord Ancient’s “Silent Communion” ability, it is clear that the 1” restriction (which we already know is a component of the ability itself and not separate from it) takes precedence over the core rule that mandates faction terrain be 3” from existing terrain. It’s also clear from the second section that because the rule specifically modifies the distance at which a WW can be placed, the restrictions present in the core rules are ignored in favor of the ability effect. In both cases it is clear the 1” restriction take priority over the 3” restriction from the core rules, not only does the effect take precedence because effects take precedence over core rules, it also explicitly modifies a restriction that applies to a core rule. In both cases, Rules as Written (RAW) is clear that the 1” restriction for terrain, models and objectives takes precedence over whatever restrictions are present in the core rules. So perhaps we can return to the “brass tacks” explanation of our two positions Havelocke: Two rules are contradictory if no game state can exist which causes them to agree on the legality of an action. Mirage: A contradiction exists if the an application of ability effect would violate a core rule in any way. I hope this is what your after when you asked if your description of my thinking was accurate. The difference may seem subtle, but the game is clear that the actual application of the effect is what determines its contradictory state, not hypothetical application of all the ways an effect could be applied. The game does not care if you choose not to retreat and charge with a model, it only cares if you attempt to (since the restriction on charging is a component of retreating). If you wish to charge after retreating, you need to have an ability (via a warscroll or allegiance ability) that explicitly says you may do so. It’s the application of that ability that creates a contradiction between the effect and the core rules (in which cases the ability effect would take precedence.) not the fact that ability or rule just “exists”. This post is already a little long, but I hope it clear. At this point it might only be the two of us (or maybe just me lol) who are still interested in this, but I’d be keen to hear your perspective if you’re still inclined.
  4. Yes. Also items like the Acorn fall under allegiance abilities.
  5. I feel the same about you, and @Pennydudeas well. I’ve had a number of very intense discussions on this board since it’s launch in 1.0, and I’ve found as group we tend to agree about most of the big issues, and it’s important not to lose sight of that when dissecting the particulars. Speaking of dissecting the particulars, I think you can I are on the same page in terms of the method by which we resolve rules disputes. Twelve both refereed frequently to the differences between RAW and RAI, while also citing precedent to occasionally infer how a rule might work under peculiar circumstances. Which is why this is a very very clever argument. Your argument is a good one, albeit slightly technical. I feel i can answer it, but my response might be a bit technical as well, so I apologize in advance for the incoming wall of text. Essentially you are saying there is an area of play where both statements can be true. Your argument implies that because we can play in way that satisfies one rule, while at the same time technically fulfilling the purely linguistic requirements of the other we are required to. While I understand that your position is technically correct (one can indeed do that). I think your argument that we are required to stay solely within that area of play is more than a little overstated, and not supported by the rules. Firstly, these rules aren’t just linguistic requirements on a page, they exist under a wider “permissive ruleset” that is played out under real conditions. If you’re not familiar with the term, a permissive ruleset is a collection of rules that allow you to do something: move a model, make an attack, apply a modifier, ect. Every Rule in Age of Sigmar allows you to perform an action under certain conditions with clearly stipulated limitations. You can’t do something in the game unless the rules say you can. The core rules are general and apply to everyone, and warscroll rules/faction rules are particular to that unit or faction. There will obviously be ways to play where one can satisfy the condition of multiple rules at the same time. But if that is the case, then we dont really need to discuss those interactions because there is no conflict. For these type of debates to even exist there has to be an interaction where one rule allows you to do a thing, and another says you may not. While there could be an infinite number of other choices that do not trigger a rules conflict (by equally satisfying both rules as you solution does), there can’t be a discussion about them, because there is no conflict to discuss: they are irrelevant for the purposes of this discussion and as such we must be silent about them. So, consider the wider ruleset under which the following statements exist: The wyldwood must be set up more than one inch away from other terrain The wyldwood must be set up more than three inches away from other terrain These two rules allow you to choose where to place a piece of scenery within a certain area. If there is a spot on the board that is within 1.5 inches of the terrain that you want to place the terrain, the question becomes can you place the piece of scenery there or not. One rule says yes, the other says no. That is the source of conflict, and avoiding it by suggesting you “can” do something else is not actually a resolution: it’s a dodge. A very clever dodge but a dodge none the less. As i said above, I think the “obligation” you suggest we have to play the middle ground rather than choosing between the primacy of your rules is the weak link in your argument: Do the rules really say we are obligated to dodge when we can? No they dont. When two rules conflict, you have one that says I can do X, and and another rule thats says I cannot. Alarielle’s warscroll says she can retreat and charge; the core rules say she cannot. Am I obligated to decide I’d rather not shoot just because the rule says I “can” retreat and shoot not “must” retreat and shoot? In other words, are we obligated *by the rules* to play in manner that satisfies the pure liguistic requirments of two rules simply because its possible to do so? If the rules supported this arguement I would agree with you. But as Pennydude has pointed out, the core rules are clear that you are not required to play both rules simultaneously. Section `1.1.6 says: “If the effect of an ability contradicts a core rule, then the effect takes precedence.” Again, a permissive ruleset allows you to do a thing with certain stipulations. If two rules conflict the core rules say one takes precedence over the other It must contradict a core rule Be the effect of an ability To use a specific example, a TLA wants to use Silent Communion to place a WW within 1.5” of an existing terrain feature. The rule as written on his warscroll says you can, the other in the GHB says you can’t. The core rules are clear that Silent Communion meets the requirements if it contradicts the core rule set (it does) and is the effect of an ability (it is). Thus we are allowed to ignore the 3” restriction and place the WW as long as it doesn’t violate the 1” stipulation of ability that you are using. The rules don’t need to be entirely exclusive in every application to create a situation where one rules says you can do something and the other rule says you can’t. It’s not a matter of being in conflict in every situation, only that is in conflict in at least one situation. I also think your misreading the “the additional to” clause. The “additional” restriction is not a hierarchical one: it doesn’t change which rule takes precedence when an ability effect conflicts with a core rule. If an ability said you could “set up a terrain feature 1” from models and objectives”, then “in addition to” is added to the restrictions already present: “set up a terrain feature 1” from models and objectives [and 3” from terrain]”. You couldn’t ignore it, because it doesn’t conflict with the rules as they already exist and 1.1.6 wouldn’t apply. But if there is already a restriction regarding it’s placement relative to existing terrain, i.e. “set up a terrain feature 1” from models objective and terrain” then that does create a conflict. In this case 1.1.6 would indeed apply and you would apply the effect as written. “In addition to” simply means “add to x”, not “add to with preference over x”. I dont know how much more clear this could get, because there are literaly dozens of examples of this working in a similar way. Not only is it a long standing precedent that battletome override core rules (even back in WHFB) the Core rule book specifically states abilities override core rules. This isn’t a vague rule interaction where we have to try and tease out what something means, it’s in the core book in black and white, RAW. The GHB is a core book and its rules come secondary to ability effects as they appear on the various warscrolls and battletomes. The TL:DR here is that this whole discussion boils down to a conflict between a core rule and ability effect. RAW you always apply the ability effect even if a core rule says you must do something else. GHB is a core rule book, it’s rules so cover all the armies in a general way, but it doesn’t supercede the abities as written on the individual warscrolls.
  6. We all have our opinions on rules interpretations that aren’t covered by an existing FAQ. If you’re prepared to give your opinion and reasoning, you should be prepared to have somebody disagree with it. Generally that’s what these discussions are for, and I’ve said as much elsewhere. GHB is a core rulebook The TLA has his WW summoning rule explicitly written on its warscroll. Allarielle explicitly has her WW summoning rule written on her warscroll. Both have had their warscrolls updated for 3.0, I can’t think of a single warscroll that has one set of rules for matched play and one set for open play. That’’s why Warscrolls take precedence over core books. I’ll totally own that fact that I can be forceful in my replies. Still, I do value your insight and respect your right to have an opinion. I will absolutely defend to the death your right to express your viewpoint, but I’m not going to refrain from challenging it just because you have it. I’d hate to see you go, not least because I find your insight super valuable: I find opposing viewpoints more valuable than concurring ones. If I’ve offended you with my tone I apologize, but I’m not going to apologize for rigorously disagreeing with you.
  7. No. The rules are Battletome/warscroll rules override core rules. It’s literally been that way forever (and I’m fairly sure it’s printed in the new rule set as well although I don’t have a citation handy atm). Think about what you arguing. Are we going to argue that Alarielle can’t retreat from combat and shoot because the core rules for matched play say “you can’t retreat and shoot”? Are we not allowed to take Gotrek as an ally because the GHB rules say you can’t have more than 400pts of allies? Are we just going to ignore all the instances in the game where a warscroll says you can do something that conflicts with the core rules? No. And I can cite dozens of examples of this from nearly every Battletome that’s been released so far. If the core rules say one thing (3”) and warscroll/Battletome rules say another (1”) you use the warscroll rules. Yes it says “in addition to” but we already have a range restriction in the Allegiance/warscroll ability. War still/Battletome always, always, takes precedence when two rules conflict. When there’s a question of which rule/range to use, you use the Battletome RAW. Full stop. I’d like to point out I’d like to have an faq on this too. Mostly so people can stop arguing that Battletome rules take precedence for every army except Sylvaneth apparently.
  8. A friend of mine posted this in regards to the Generic Spell lore and Unique character discussion. It essentially mirrors some of @Havelocke’s thinking that spell lores are given to the army and not the Unique hero’s themselves. As in, the unique heroes are not taking the spell: the army takes the spell and very hero gets to choose from the available spells:
  9. Differing opinions on this. I believe the rule is “uniques cannot take enhancements”. But it’s been faq’d that they can take spell enhancements. So that rule isn’t entirely true. The question is whether uniques can swap an allegiance spell for a generic one. I’d say evidence is 50:50 on that. I’d really like to see another faq on this.
  10. Well I suppose that's one way you could go lol. Although I should point out that all the weird rules interactions we've been debating (T-revs teleport, Drycha access to flaming weapons, dryads teleporting after summoning ect) all have been clarified in our favor, and just about every reveal has either benefited us a great deal, or hurt every other faction far more. I stand by what I've ben saying for pages now: our faction is in the best place we've been since 1.0 gave us the first of the new Battletomes.
  11. I also think that because the GHB passage on faction terrain is included in the battlefield set-up section it's referring specifically to setting up the battlefield with terrain before the game starts. This wording is also reflected on the warscroll itself (it specifically mentions that the restrictions apply to initial placement). I don't think the restrictions on terrain placement are meant to be indefinite. We're only one of 2 factions who have this issue (the other being maggotkin) so it's probably unlikely the GHB would address our factions unique use of scenery; it makes sense that the warscrolls themselves would detail specifically how they are to be used in game. I means that's literally how everything else works. I mean, it existed yes, but it was deliberately altered. And although there are all sorts of rules that only apply to matched-play from the core book, I can't think of a warscroll that has alternate range specifications depending on what mode of game you're playing. And again, it's clear in the errata that they could have changed any of this to reflect these restrictions: but they didn't. There is no reason for GW to leave the range restriction in our BT in place after a major errata, and then create an alternate range restrictions that makes actually using them impossible. Nice catch! And upon second reading I agree with you. Despite all the previous, think how impossible that makes actually playing with woods on the new smaller table. 8 pieces of scenery means there has to be gap bigger than 8" between them to even get 1 wood down. You can pretty much forget getting a 3 wood circle down anywhere other than your deployment zone with terrain, objectives and models on the board. Finally, as I mentioned before Battletome and warscroll rules supersede core rules. Where there is a conflict, you're supposed to use the faction specific rules. I understand that the passage in the GHB says "in addition to any other rules" but the rules in the GHB are not "an addition": it does not add a new restriction (we already have distance from terrain and objectives restriction) it creates two versions of the same restriction. The core rulebook says (specifically) in that case we are supposed to use the restrictions in our Battletome. I understand wanting to abide by the rules, but sometimes I think Sylvaneth players are dedicated to handicapping themselves. This is the T-revs "teleporting from combat" conundrum all over again: a general wording change that Sylvaneth players are dedicated to seeing as a deliberate restriction to how our faction is supposed to play despite every indication otherwise.
  12. Don't be sorry mate. This is new for all of us, and we're all trying to figure out exactly how the changes affect us. There's a lot of crunch to sift through. I imagine its hard to do with life stuff in the way (as I know quite well from having a 5 month old that refuses to sleep like Nagash refuses to die). They went through and changed a bunch of warscrolls and wording in the battletomes. I imagine if they intended all WW to be 3" from terrain/objectives they would have edited it to say so. Plus, Alarielle's warscroll is literally brand new and includes the 1" from models/objectives/terrain wording. Kinda seems suspect a brand-new warscroll would have and ability wording that only applies in open/narrative play.
  13. From the Core rulebook: "Faction terrain is a special type of terrain that is taken as part of an army." Our initial wyldwood is taken as part of our army and should be include on our list (like the Bone Tithe Nexus or Charnel Throne). Because it is "deployed" like unit at the start of the game. Forests that come after are like summoned units and not actually part of our army list.
  14. Again, I think "Faction Terrain" is specifically for terrain that is set up before the battle starts. What does the section before say? Is it talking about setting up the battlefield for a match?
  15. "Faction Terrain" I think specifically refers to terrain pieces that are setup before the battle starts, which is reflected on the WW warscroll anyway. Anything that comes in after has its placement determined by the method it was summoned. Besides, battletome rules always supersede core rules anyway.
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