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Everything posted by PlasticCraic

  1. What a strange sentence - citing a phantom 40% statistic, and then chastising others for their "sparse evidence", all within the space of a few words. Unless you have substantial evidence that the double turn ruins 40% of all games, in which case I'm all ears?
  2. Very good topic @Marc Wilson Just to offer an alternative perspective on this, from the viewpoint of a different tournament scene (Australia and more specifically Victoria / Southern States). We have the opposite problem here, with the same root cause. Most people or potential TOs don't want to be seen to charge through the nose for events, or be perceived to be making coin off the back of the community. The outcome being that there are nowhere near enough events here to meet demand, because it's a huge job for basically a pat on the back if you're lucky, or more likely a lifetime of whinging for your troubles. I would love to see a cultural change that meant TOs actively raise the price on their events to make a few bucks on each ticket. Partly because it's the right thing to do - they deserve compensation for the huge amount of time, love and effort that goes into it. Partly from a purely practical viewpoint - I want more people to think it's worth the immense hassle, so I have more events to go to. I'd also love to see gaming clubs hiring out their terrain at some kind of commercial rate, since terrain and mats are a huge upfront cost (time and money) for potential new TOs. There is an attrition rate with this stuff getting used at events, and a huge amount of work in painting it up or repairing it, so they deserve compensation. I'd love to see clubs make a few bucks off that stuff if it removes / lessens that barrier to entry for new TOs - again, reflected in the ticket price.
  3. Also @KingBrodd just wondering if we should lock this Bonesplitterz 2nd Ed thread, and move across to the Bonesplitterz 3rd Ed thread? There are two active threads currently fracturing the conversation.
  4. You can actually alpha strike with them if you're feeling bold: 8" pregame move on an 18" map will hit something on or near the frontline. Unlikely to be a juicy enough target to be worth it, but you get the point! Loads of maps are now "smoosh everything into the middle" which plays very well into your Masks. You can quite easily set up little pockets of pain, with Wurggogs and a coterie of Big Stabbas ready to stare and smash over the top of screens. That 3" range on the Big Stabbas is still amazing - they ain't what they were, but they are at least costed appropriately to reflect that. And it feels great when your opponent shoots 7 wounds into them and you're like "OK, you've killed one Big Stabba...." Sounds like my list plays similarly to yours @Shirtripper, although I'm only 1-1 with mine. Enjoying it though!
  5. Sorry mate I've been unwell, no post this week 😥 Hopefully back next week
  6. Great spot on counteracting Unleash Hell @Kasper
  7. Virtually nothing, although you'll sometimes get it for "free" since Megbass CAs affect multiple targets - it might help you pile more models onto an objective, get Brutes in tighter to those 1-wound chumps than they would have been off a single pile in, and so on. I doubt you'd often use it for this, but you'll sometimes get a minor ancillary benefit.
  8. Hey mate glad you enjoyed it! Corey is a very analytical player as you would have got from the article, so it was a good opportunity to go down the well on the nuts and bolts of playing the army effectively - deployment, detailed turn 1 strategies and so on. I'll be playing KB as something similar (combined arms / counterpunch) but my own current build is Double Croc. Similar idea really, they flex between buffing your shooting then flipping to that big melee Waaagh turn. I'll be honest, IJ is the part of the book I've looked at least so far! Bonesplitterz are "my dudes" and KB were the new shiny, so that's where I've focused my own energy up till now. I'll figure something out by Friday but atm I'm thinking maybe I'll do 1 list from each Clan. So not as in-depth as Corey's Kruleboyz piece (sorry!) but I'll def be covering Ironjawz this week!
  9. I also agree with this - This has also been my own take on it, so thanks for laying it out much more clearly than I've been able to!
  10. This is correct - but I think the point was that the Drakkfoot ability used to only apply to wounds (not mortal wounds) from attacks. That got better - it now specifies mortal wounds as well - but they took away both of your ways to do mortal wounds from attacks in Drakkfoot (Curse and the Monster Hunter table). So you're not getting any benefit from the new wording - and meanwhile, they also significantly reduced your volume of attacks (90 -> 60 on both Savages and Arrow Boys).
  11. Excellent summary @broche Looking forward to seeing what lists you come up with! Can confirm that the Rogue Idol is legal, there is a ruling on that in the Forgeworld pdf on the FAQ website. They belong to specific factions as an approved exception: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/ZSGu5E0qVvhlmEuC.pdf
  12. Agreed, but even the pigs are pretty bad value in Big Waaagh imo. 10 extra points gets you a unit Gore Gruntas that have a better save, rend, better buff potential (read: Warchanters), hit on 3s instead of 4s, are slower on paper but double move with Mighty D etc. They are almost the same cost but Gore Gruntas outshine them massively imo. You get some of that back in Bonesplitterz Allegiance (e.g. that pregame move) which is where our pigs shine, but in Big Waaagh specifically I think the BS pigs are squeezed out. I ran my list with 4 Wurggogs on Saturday night, and it was a catastrophe! Between all 4 of them they took down 2 Gore Gruntas and an Ardboy. Not units of, models 🤣. But I knew that could happen when I signed up for it, so that comes with the territory. 🤷‍♂️ I'm happy to keep trying and waiting for that one game where it goes turbo. They are probably best ran in 1 or 2 competitively is my feeling? 4+ is just a fun skew list, although it will be terrifying to some very competitive armies! Good thinking, I like this idea. Must admit I was among the cohort who had basically forgotten it was a thing!
  13. There was a bit of talk about it in this forum, a French guy (whose username I can't recall, sorry!) got a couple of 4-1s with it
  14. I've done a bit of a write up on Bonesplitterz, including a list and a (brief) batrep, for anyone interested: https://plasticcraic.blog/2021/09/17/battletome-orruk-warclans-bonesplitterz-lists/
  15. I'm not sure if it works as well at 1000 points tbh...but maybe something like this in Icebone: Wurggog - Master of Magic, Glowin Tattooz (warcry spell) Wurggog (rend spell) Wardokk (+1 to hit spell) Boarboys Boarboys Morboys Morboys That's 89 Wounds and 970 points. I'd probably take the Battleshock triumph and put it in a one-drop. It's a lot of points in heroes though - the army ends up looking a bit lightweight. Dropping the Wardokk wouldn't add much: it only gives you 110 points to play with, so you might as well have access to the save stacking when you use your Wurrgogs to stare. Whaddya reckon? What would you change?
  16. Yeah we've been kicking around Wurrgog spam lists in the Bonesplitterz Whatsapp group too. One guy (Will) has committed to taking an army with 6 of them to an event, so he played a practice game last night. Turn one, he stared off a Mercenary Gatebreaker, a Wight King and 20 Grave Guard. Turn two, his opponent conceded! It was a dream matchup - a melee army that comes straight towards you - but it did make me chuckle. I've got 4 in the list I'm writing right now 🙂
  17. Also @Magnus The Blue just wanted to say thanks for the topic, it's a good discussion to have. I'm not trying to dismiss your analysis blindly and I can see a lot of work went into it - just wanted to add another perspective to the discussion that I also think it important. Stats x Delivery Mechanism = Success I think where my own head is at is that the former has had a big lift, the latter has had a big drop and we'll need to put it on the table to see where it all washes out. I tend to weight things like movement and range very heavily, so I'm extremely cautious about where this army stands right now, but I hope we can all enjoy discussing it in a good spirit on this thread. Thanks for posting it.
  18. I think the big thing there is that Arrow Boys were putting damage wherever they wanted it, whereas Boars intrinsically don't do that (combat unit) and have also been slowed down significantly (Breath gone) and can't jump over screens (Breath gone). So you've gone from engaging on your terms to engaging on your opponent's terms, and that's something that's hard to capture in raw stats. Overall my concern here is that the win condition for Bonesplitterz was not hyper damage*, so benchmarking the current output of something like Pigs against their old output is not necessarily going to win you games. I've played Bonesplitterz at events as much as most people, and from both my experience and what success I've seen from others it was mostly can't-retreat Bonegrinz wound spam (removed from the army via the Warclan) and then in early 3rd Ed, Drakkfoot Curse Arrowboys (removed from the army via the Priest keyword). My point here is that I actually don't mind moving on and seeing different units (pigs) and a different Warclan (Icebone) having their time to shine. I've already ordered more pigs, because although I'm currently pretty down on the army I'm not giving up on it. But if we should be ready to move on (we should), that works both ways, and using the old, puny damage output as a benchmark - when that is observably not what won them games - is interesting, but not definitive. If we're going to be a vanilla combat army, with no teleports or particularly fast units, we need to benchmark against actual combat armies. I play a few of those, and all of them have me more excited than Bonesplitterz do right now. I think there's a real risk that Bonesplitterz have moved from being a solid, high-movement attrition army (with precision burst damage) to a mediocre and much more predictable combat army. Also worth pointing out that the army has been slowed down further via musicians nerfed to +1" charge. I believe that all these movement nerfs will be a large cumulative impact - let's see how it plays out, but that's something that comes to light when you move from looking at damage tables to putting the army on the table. If you don't have the delivery mechanism, you are in trouble - especially for an army with bad armour saves and terrible bravery. With Bonesplitterz, you're where you need to be or you're dead, there is no inbetween. *with the exception of something like Big Stabbas into monsters, which has also been stripped out, and perhaps more importantly has lost its delivery mechanism (no access to double move and fly, no access to run and charge). Worth noting that they are also frozen out of the new exploding 6s rule
  19. 4 Megas is my preferred direction, but there are people doing well with 3 + 3 and even 2+ 6 (I'd avoid the latter personally). Sounds like you already have 3 Megas in which case I would say you'll be fine with 3 of them and 3 babies. I happen to like 4 Megas, but it's not essential. 3+3 is a good army too, and lets you use the models you already own.
  20. I keep putting units of 10 Maniak Weirdnobs in my lists, and then remembering how awful the 3rd Edition coherency rules are for cav bases like them. You'll be lucky to get more than 7 into combat...pay for 5 more, get 2 more. Like everyone else I'm currently mucking around with Icebone pig lists and I feel like it's definitely the way to go. My initial thoughts were loads of 5x Boarboys as mobile screens and skirmishing units, and use your reinforcements for a few blocks of 10 Maniaks (and maybe some Big Stabbas - very frustrating that they cannot benefit from the exploding 6s though). But I'm moving more towards using the reinforcements on vanilla Boarboys as mobile tarpits. You always get the benefit of them being a block of wounds, and at least the spears can hit over the top (if not the pigs), so it feels less inefficient. I'll probably run the Maniaks as little darts of 5. I remain to be convinced that Icebone will actually be a good combat army - fishing for those 6s will be exciting, but even if you spike it's not that many mortal wounds. Tell me if my maths is wrong, but I've got a unit of 5 Maniaks, with All Out Attack, doing about 4 MWs per activation on average. That's not amazing return for a dedicated combat unit with a CP (or spell), and the rest is the rend 0 damage 1 stuff we are all too familiar with. I've got a deathstar unit of 15 Boarboys with Spears doing about 8.5 MWs (assuming all 15 Spears get in, and 10 out of 15 pigs - you lose a lot of dice to coherency at 3 per pig). If you can get the rend spell on them too it'll be about 11 failed saves at a modern standard 3+ save. Circa 20 damage from a fully buffed, 420-point combat unit seems pretty light to me, and if you're thinking that Icebone mortal wounds will solve every problem then I believe that you'll be in for some disappointment. They do have a nice dual role as a mobile tarpit, but you'll either need a separate heavy hitter (e.g. take Kragnos and pray that he doesn't get deleted turn one by Lumineth), or accept that your strengths are skirmishing and blocking rather than full-blooded combat. Unit champs issuing IP is a 3rd Ed change that helps these guys a lot. Best thing in the book in my opinion is the Wurggog Mask. It is a fan-favourite, great fun, really good and I'm rapt to see it back. He lost a bit and gained a bit, but in a good way in his case. I'll be running multiples, maybe investing in a cheeky Lauchon to cart them around. Strongly disagree with this statement: The loss of Curse is super impactful The loss of the best spell (double move and fly) is super impactful The loss of volume of attacks (Savage Orruks and Arrow Boyz both down by 30 attacks per block) is super impactful The points hikes on core units are super impactful The loss of Big Stabbas burst damage (D6 against monsters) is super impactful. The loss of run and charge on Big Stabbas is super impactful The loss of the Monster Hunter table is super impactful If you think none of those things mattered and were weak sauce rules, then fair play to you, but I completely disagree. The mobility bonuses in particular were huge for this army...and super impactful.
  21. Save stacking doesn't really work in the context of a game where rend -2 is relatively rare. It was fine beforehand, where you could look at a warscroll and know that rend -2 was precious, but it's been massively left behind and the game is out of kilter as a result. I totally agree with @Neil Arthur Hotep's solution, i.e. capping it at +1 to save "gross" rather than "net". The current method just makes the game too binary and creates way too many situations where it's impossible for one player's army to do anything meaningful. Ignore it and play the objectives is a facile response - that's obviously what we all do, but it is of limited use in the big chunk of missions that have a small number of objectives jammed in the middle of the board. As someone who also plays other game systems, I feel like it's worth pointing out that AOS in general has very limited ways to interact with an opposing army other than killing them. MCP has loads of pushes and throws (a bit like the Slaughterpriest, but a much bigger part of the game); Star Wars Legion and Bolt Action have morale or suppression style effects, whereby you can panic a unit and reduce its effectiveness or even make it sprint towards the nearest board edge (Vader is really good at terrifying people). So that's the context in which I think people are frustrated when they just bounce off something unkillable - most armies don't have the tools to deal with a 0+ save, and when they don't, they've got nowhere else to go.
  22. Fantastic news. Congratulations both of you, the forum is in great hands!
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