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readercolin last won the day on January 31 2020

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  1. For knights, here are some of the frequently tossed around "proxy" ideas: Blood Knights. These are the easiest stand in, and you can fairly easily get blood knights with some shield and head swaps. Also makes sense as an art project because these aren't common run of the mill undead, they are all vampires. If you still want to use them in the cities, you can use the Mercenary Company rules to bring a block. Alternatively, get a Vampire on Zombie Dragon and you have a solid death army (note, 40 knights and 1 vampire lord on zombie dragon is 1880 points, leaving you space for an endless spells, or a block of dire wolves and a command point, etc.). Dark Riders. Dark riders are dark elf cavalry running around with a 4+ save, so a bunch of guys in armor makes sense for them. Just give them some crossbows on their back and you are good. Chaos Knights. Hang some skulls from them, do some shield swaps, add a bunch of horns, and some iconography and you have a big ass block of Chaos Knights with lances (1280 points worth). The only real problem with this is that chaos knights tend to be a bit bulkier, so the brettonian ones might look a bit small next to a typical chaos knight, but when you already have 40 of them it isn't that big of a problem because you likely won't be putting these knights next to standard ones. Any of the above three options should be easy for you to get with just some painting, and maybe a few extra bits or small swaps. Anything beyond that though and you are starting to look at some pretty significant alters, or just going straight up into proxy territory. Alternatively, you can use your knights as brettonian knights using the legends rules, and see how well that works out. I'm sure 40 knights is enough to come close to a full army.
  2. Honestly, if you want to bring endrinriggers, I would look to bring 1 gunhauler/frigate/ironclad. This adds an entirely new dimension to what they can do, and gives them a solid place in your army that can't really be replicated by pistoliers. Firstly, the boat gives the whole KO contingent Fly High, allowing them to re-position to anywhere on the board. This means that you can be nearly constantly threatening the backfield, forcing your opponent to keep units back or potentially lose objectives. It also allows you to quickly re-position to threaten one side of the board and concentrate your firepower there. Without Fly High, you do still have a 12" movement range, but that still isn't anywhere near the same type of mobility that fly high allows. The second thing that the boat gives you is additional long range damage. Give a gunhauler a drill cannon, and have the 2 long ranged weapons on the endrinriggers and you have a very strong hero-sniping block. Frigates and Ironclads don't have quite the same range, but do come with significantly more firepower which kind of makes up for that. Overall, I would happily take a gunhauler + 6 riggers over 15 pistoliers, as an added dimension to the threat that your army can give. However, I wouldn't take 2 gunhaulers, or a single frigate because then you are stuck in a position where you need to completely wipe an opponent off of an objective, rather than just mostly off of an objective, and they just don't quite have the firepower to pull that off, which drastically reduces the backfield threat that the KO units pose. 6 riggers on their own also don't really add enough as a new dimension to how your army can threaten the board, as they are more or less just "more of the same" with a highly mobile threat, even if they do get to add Fly to their threat and the pistoliers don't.
  3. My mathhammering: Save Riggers-Melee Riggers-shooting Pistoliers - shooting Pistoliers - Melee 2+ 2.83 2.33 2.22 1.43 3+ 3.81 3.33 3.33 2.86 4+ 4.80 4.33 4.44 4.29 5+ 5.78 5.33 5.56 5.72 6+ 5.83 6.00 6.67 7.15 - 5.89 6.00 6.67 8.58 This comes from the riggers being in a group of 6 with 1 skyhook, 1 grapnel, 4 rivet guns, 4 saws (including leader) and 2 gun butts. The pistoliers are a 10 man squad, with all of them getting in shooting attacks and melee attacks (arguments can be made about not getting all 10 in, but that isn't represented in these numbers). Note that this means that against a 6+ save, a unit of riggers that shoots + charges is going to deal an average of 11.83 damage, while a unit of pistioliers who shoot, charge + shoot, and then melee will deal 20.49 damage. It is possible that you were getting higher numbers because you had your full squad loaded out with saws, not with the grapnel launcher/skyhooks. By doing that, the shooting damage of the riggers is unchaged at 6+ save (though at 5+ and better saves you can knock the .33 off the shooting damage from the table above), but the melee damage jumps from 5.89 to 7.78 before saves. If you were finding my statements to be hyperbole, this is probably the reason why. However, I was trying to keep the loadout of the original person who suggested bringing riggers.
  4. The problem with bringing endrinriggers is that you have to ask "what do they really bring for me". If you are looking at a countercharging unit, you could bring 10 pistoliers instead, which can deal more damage in just their shooting phase than the endrinriggers can in melee - and that isn't even counting shooting after charging. If you were bringing a gunhauler that would let them re-deploy around the board, I could see an argument for it, as you can move them to wherever they are needed, even if they had just been sitting in the backfield till then. But since your list isn't bringing a gunhauler, it becomes much more difficult to justify the unit. Overall, I just don't think that endrinriggers justify their points in a cities army.
  5. Apparently you didn't read back where I did a more in depth review of knights and their weapon loadouts. Here is it for a fresh review. Looking at just the weapons (separating the ponies damage out, because that is going to be the same across loadouts), without buffs a unit of knights will do the following: Ensorcelled Weapons: 7.11 damage to a 6+ save, 4.74 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 7.33 damage to a 6+ save, 6.11 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 3.06 damage to a 6+ save, 1.83 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 2.08 damage to a 6+ save, 1.25 to a 4+ This means that before we start counting bonuses, ensorcelled weapons do almost as much damage to 6+ save chaff as lances, while doing 1.37 damage less to a 4+ save. However, as soon as you are stuck in combat for more than a round, we can see that the ensorcelled weapons jump FAR ahead - especially against tougher units. Additionally, there is one last point that REALLY stands out. If you add up all the damage, neither loadout will allow a unit of knights to go through a 10 wound block of infantry on average. But wait, you say - BUFFS! Well, lets look at those. However, first, a word of caution. After 4 months of playing with Knights (would be more, but the virus has kind of halted my gaming...), I will say that unless you are being VERY selective, you really, REALLY need an 18" aura to get that mark of chaos buff consistently. Otherwise the knights have a tendency to charge out of your 12" bubble due to their enormous bases. But numbers, we want numbers. Khorne General Aura: Ensorcelled Weapons: 10.37 damage to a 6+ save, 6.91 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 10.69 damage to a 6+ save, 8.91 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 4.46 damage to a 6+ save, 2.67 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 3.24 damage to a 6+ save, 1.94 to a 4+ Here we can see that with a set of buffs, we can finally go through a 10 wound infantry squad on the charge. Yay knights! Ok, if they are a 4+ save squad, there will be 1 guy left on average with the ensorcelled weapons. Of course, if its a 20 man squad, the ensorcelled weapons can go through them in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances will do a lot of damage on the first attack and then take another 2 rounds after that to finish off the squad. Yay. Of course, you could have a chaos lord on foot nearby to allow them to pile in and attack twice, but slaves are so CP starved that you can't do this regularly - and you probably have better units to use it on (if he's even in range to do it). Also, doing that precludes putting the Karkadrak buff on them as well. Speaking of which, lets add that karkadrak buff: Khorne General Aura + Karkadrak buff: Ensorcelled Weapons: 12.96 damage to a 6+ save, 8.64 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 14.26 damage to a 6+ save, 11.88 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 5.94 damage to a 6+ save, 3.56 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 4.32 damage to a 6+ save, 2.59 to a 4+ Yay, we can now go through a 10 wound squad of infantry with a 4+ save. For a 6+ save, lances can almost go through a 20 wound squad (~18.5 wounds on average). Course, against a 4+ save, the ensorcelled weapons can get through it in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances are going to be 1/2 a point of damage short on average. Overall, if you can consistently get a charge off every single one of your turns, the lances MIGHT be worth bringing, as long as you have all the buffs. Without the buffs, the lances are too pillow-fisted to actually go through a target though, so you can't really recommend them. However, this is assuming that you can get a charge off consistently. From my own playing with them, this seems unlikely, because their 10" move makes them really, really slow for a cav unit. Unless of course you have a Khorne Daemon Prince about who is making it hard for your opponent to charge, in which case the charges get much easier. Of course, that is CP's spent on that though, which means that you aren't really going to be able to do that AND provide Karkadrak buffs.
  6. Not really. First issue - the start collecting boxes don't give you any banners/musicians, which means that you will either need to kitbash them or you will need to source those from elsewhere. Second issue, the knights come with lances. Objectively, the lances are terrible. Yes, they do slightly more damage on the charge, but significantly less when they aren't charging. To make it worse, with or without lances, you don't really have enough damage to reliably clear off whatever you charge, which means that you are going to be having to rely on the damage of the non-charging knights the following turn to finish it, and they really can't. Third issue - Chaos warriors should only be brought in groups of 5 for MSU, or groups of 15+. For 5 models, you are bringing them because they are 90 points for battleline. For 15, they are enough of an anvil that they can be worth bringing (ish). However, for a 10 man unit, your opponent only has to deal 2 damage and then you lose your save re-rolls. For a 15 man unit, you at least have 12 wounds buffer with your save re-rolls. Without the re-rolls though, the warriors are a wet noodle and aren't durable enough to be worth their points. You might be able to make a list that is mildly competent with those models just by re-arranging your units. Something like this: Archaon (general) Karkadrak 20 Warriors 10 Knights 3 Varanguard However, you are still going to be better served by changing the warriors out for something like marauders, and swapping the Karkadrak out for something like a sorcerer lord on manticore, or getting a warshrine in, or something along those lines. On the other hand, if you are looking at this as a way to start your army, then you can look to try your list and then expand it out from there.
  7. I agree that concussors are strong choices. And as you can see from the numbers, it isn't like fulminators are head and shoulders above everything else. If you are planning to use the units as a "I'm coming in and sticking around", then concussors are definitely better. If however you think you can free the unit up, or if you bring along a knight-heraldor to give you retreat+run+charge, then fulminators become a lot more appealing. Do keep in mind though that earlier damage is more impactful than later, simply because you can expect to lose models. In general though, the damage difference is low enough that you can pretty easily get away with whichever looks cooler. Sure, in a squad of 6, you save 90 points by going with desolators rather than fulminators/concussors. Considering that you can do that and bring another squad of cheap units, this is an argument in favor of the desolators. However, then you have to decide whether or not you want to bring a squad of 6 rather than squads of 2 or 4. Then you also need to decide whether it is still worth it if you are expecting to lose models each turn. Overall, if you are willing to run them in a big unit, then sure. For smaller units... not so much.
  8. I have a two answers to this question. The first is to answer the question in the thread title - which FACTION has the best battleline. Here, I would choose Cities of Sigmar, not because any one of their units stands out as the best, but because they have so many options for battleline. This means that you can find a unit that does what you want your army to do, and make it battleline. Want a brick wall? Phoenix Guard battleline. Want shooting? Sisters of the Watch or Irondrakes can be battleline. Want mobility/screening? Scourgerunner Chariots can be battleline, as can dark riders, pistoliers, and outriders. Yes, many of these require a leader tax to be battleline, but usually that leader is something you want to bring anyways because it is going to buff your units. If you are looking at one unit that is the best at trying to be everything, I would say probably Chaos Marauders. They work as a screen, because you get 20 bodies on 25mm bases to take up board space. They work as a hammer, with guaranteed 8" charges and then being able to put a 3+/4+/-1/1 damage profile down. They work as an Anvil, because you are paying 8 points per wound. And most importantly, they are battleline for Slaves to Darkness, Tzeentch, Khorne, Slannesh, and Nurgle, meaning that if you get 3 units of these guys you can literally play whatever book you want. This makes them a flexible unit that you aren't going to be upset about putting into your army, no matter which army you bring.
  9. Stardrakes are... ok. However, if you look at the only competitive usage of them, you are looking at a "starcast" list which is looking to run a stardrake, a second stardrake or Celestant prime, and a caster with the comet. The problem with trying to do that in a living city list is that you can't bring 3 stormcast units (especially when they are as expensive as stardrakes), and the living city lacks good mortal wound output to replicate the effect otherwise - especially at range. However, without trying to use the rain of stars to eliminate support hero's leaves you with a giant pillow as the centerpiece of your army. Outriders are kind of underwhelming. If you want damage, you are going to want to bring an infantry unit. If you want mobility, you are better off bringing scourgerunner chariots (where a unit of 3 will deal over 2x as much damage as a 10 man squad of outriders for only 10 more points). And if you want something that can shoot and then command point move, you are generally going to want to bring something that can effectively use that to charge into melee. Yes, you can get a good number of bonuses onto outriders, making them a 3+/2+ profile between a general and a hurricanum, but to do so you are forcing them to stand still. Basically, they just aren't efficient enough for their points, so you don't see them. This is easy to see if you run the numbers. On the charge, an equal number of fulminators will always do the most damage (6 damage/model), followed by desolators in groups of 6+ (5.5 damage/model), and then finally concussors (5.33 damage/model). However, if the number of models drops below 6, concussors outdamage the desolators, though both units will always outdamage fulminators that aren't charging. However, this is half the story. The other half is that it is extremely easy to get charges off with your dracothian guard unit because you can deploy them on the board edge, shoot, scoot in to 3" range, and then get the charge off. Lastly, there is the question of how many points you can push into the unit. Having to take a 6 man unit of desolators is VERY expensive, and it is hard to justify pushing 570 points into that rather than other available units. However, dumping 480 points into a pack of 4 fulminators/concussors leaves you with that unit and enough points for another battleline unit, or a hero, while still having enough punch to be worth bringing.
  10. Note that you can only have a single artifact on a hero. This is in the Core rules (looking at the free rules pdf, this is on page 17, "Allegience Abilities"), with the except below: ARTEFACTS OF POWER These treasures are borne to war by mighty heroes. If the allegiance abilities for your army include any artefacts of power, you can choose or roll for one to be carried by a Hero from your army. You may choose one additional Hero to have an artefact for each warscroll battalion you include in your army. A Hero cannot have more than one artefact of power, and an army may not include duplicates of the same artefact of power. Artefacts of power have no effect on attacks made by a hero’s mount unless noted otherwise. For other notes, are you looking to run a single unit of 6 scythes? Or 2 units of 3? Similarly, your dryads? Is that 1 unit of 30? or 3 units of 10? Because you already have your battleline requirements met by your spites, so it seems like a good idea to have that as a single unit of 30. Though, this might just be BattleScribe having terrible formatting.
  11. 1 in 10 can be that model. If you can't field 10, then you can't field the hornblower/icon bearer.
  12. A few things here: First off, the stormcast don't have any new errata, and their points were included in the general's handbook, so don't show up in the errata. To see their new points, you need the GHB. Second, you need to re-read cycle of the storm. "Once per turn, when a friendly Stormcast Eternal model is slain within 18" of this model, instead of removing the slain model, you can heal 1 wound allocated to it. This model cannot use this ability on itself" This means that if he has 1 wound left, and you roll a 1, then he takes 1 damage, would normally get removed, but instead of doing so he heals and is back at 1 damage. However, if he takes 2 damage, then he would take 1, normally get removed, cycle of the storm kicks in, he is back at 1 wound, but there is still a wound allocated to him which then goes on and he dies. Note, the Lord-Arcanum on Gryph Charger is still a decent idea for a unit to bring. After all, you get units with a 3+ save, a heal that they can cast on themselves/other stormcast units, they still give you access to the Everblaze Comet, and should you ever need to cast Arcane Bolt, they still give you "Prime Electrids". However, before you go all in on your Gryph Charger, you might actually want to take a look at the Taurelion now. 10 wounds, 3+ save, still gives you cycle of the storm, but most importantly it is the 1 unit that you can bring in cities of sigmar that has 2 casts BASE, which means that in hallowheart he can cast 3 spells. In case that wasn't enough though, his points dropped - now he is only 280 points, the exact same as a hurricanum. His built in spell is kind of poor admittedly, but between prime electrids and the hallowheart spells, and the probability of having a realm spell available more frequently now, he isn't going to be suffering all that much.
  13. Honestly, it was probably nerfed because that is the only mage that you would really run multiples of. Think about it. If you bring a sorceress, you get an ok spell and a potential for a +2 bonus to cast. However, bring a second sorceress, and you get... the exact same thing, and the +2 to cast is going to cost you another model again. Meanwhile, if you bring a battlemage, you get a spell, and you can get a +1 from a hurricanum. However, if you bring a second battlemage, you can get another completely different spell, and it isn't costing you anything extra to continue getting your +1 from the hurricanum. This means that if you are running multiple wizards, it really pays off more to run multiple battlemages over multiple sorceress's. On top of all of this, you can say that you can always run a stormcast wizard instead. However, stormcast units come with a tax, you can't just toss another one in. Yes, the first unit is generally a free-roll, but getting the 2nd stormcast unit starts to get a little costly, and a 3rd one gets really expensive with the number of drops that you will have to run. This introduces a tradeoff for them as well. So what you get is a unit that you can benefit from running multiples of going up in points so that they cost a little more to do so. 20 points more for a sorceress generally isn't going to make a significant impact, just because you are going to run 1, maaaaaaybe 2 at most. 20 points more for a battlemage matters though, because you are much more likely to run 2-3 of them.
  14. Ehh, I would rather do this: Khemist - 90 points - spell in a bottle 2x 10 Arkanaughts (in ironclads, and more bodies on objectives) - 180 points 1x 20 Arkanaughts - 180 points 3x Ironclads - 1440 points Endless spell (comet, warp lightning, whatever) This gives you 3 ships, and if you want to you can give 1 of them the endrinworks for extra capacity so it can carry the 20 man squad of arkanaughts. The big thing here is that you get 3 squads of bodies to hold objectives with, but you can still fly in on your 3 boats. Alternatively, you can go super-silly and have the Admiral command his fleet: Admiral - 120 points 3x Ironclads - 1440 points 3x Gunhaulers - 390 points Command point This comes out to exactly 2000 points, though it does require you go with Barak Urbaz to make the gunhaulers battleline.
  15. Did you know that you can now get a Lord-Arcanum on Taurelion for 20 points cheaper than the battlemage on griffon? Yes, technically the griffon does more damage in melee. But the Taurelion has a 3+ save, a profile that doesn't degrade, and most importantly - it can cast 2 spells. Note here that I am not arguing that a Taurelion is worth bringing. He's still kind of questionable, even in hallowheart where he can cast 3 spells. But DAMN does that make the battlemage look terrible.
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