readercolin

I played a list with warsong, ancient, wych and spellportal. Backed it up with Durthu, 6 bow hunters, and some dryads. Overall, the list is super swingy. I had games where spells just didn't go off, or I rolled low for the damage rolls, and because I had so many points invested into the bombs my list just crumbled. On the other hand, I also had games where my dice were rolling hot and I managed to double my opponent and murder their whole army with just spells. As a list for casual games, it can be fun (or unfun because you went off and your opponent couldn't do anything about it), but once you get into competitive games, it falls apart due to its unreliability, and it doesn't have the spell power to punch through magic dom armies like Tzeentch, Seraphon and Lumineth.

I'm going to have to come down on the side of not liking to play versus legends armies. Why? When I sit down to play a game, my goal is to have a game that is fun for both sides. What I find fun is when both players play the game, and their list at least gets close to doing what you designed it to do. For example, if I bring out a hallowheart list, I want to just cast a ton of spells and see what happens. If I bring out Durthu, I want to see him go to town and smack something. Yes, that something might be chaff, and he might just whiff, but that is part of the dice game. If I know what power level my opponent is aiming for prior to getting together, I can also adjust my list to try to get a closer game. So rather than bringing out my "Kill your fun and stomp you" list, I might bring out a more fluffy list, or one that uses units that are more underpowered, but I like anyways. However, when my opponent wants to pull out a Legends army, one of two things happens. First, even if I tone down my list a bunch, I still curbstomp my opponent because my warscrolls are newer, cost fewer points, and are straight up better at what they do. An example of this is Freeguild Crossbows vs Glade Guard. Crossbows have 1 shot each of 4+/3+/-/1, but if they stand still get +1 attacks for 100 points. Glade guard on the other hand are 1 shot each at 4+/4+/-/1, get +1 to hit if there are 10+ models in the unit, and cost 135. For the same number of points, I can have 40 crossbows to my opponent's 30 glade guard, and even then it is arguable that the crossbows are still straight up better. The other thing that happens is that the Legends warscroll has some janky rules that end up blindsiding you randomly out of nowhere. A few examples of this are the Drakeseer and the Dreadquake Mortar, both of which have an ability to just randomly go off and delete something without any real counterplay available. However, I only know about these 2 because I took some time to look through the legends warscrolls to try and figure out what is going on with some of the warscrolls and after reviewing about 20 they were the only ones that even remotely stood out to me as "huh" - there may be more, but I can't be sure without spending a lot more time on it then I really want to, which brings me back to janky rules that will blindside you. Meanwhile, if instead of bringing out a legends army, you just used your army as "Counts As", your units will in general be better. I have no objections to my opponent running glade guard as shadow warriors, or as Sisters of the Watch. I have no objections to the old Runelord on Anvil being a "Celestial Hurricanum". Basically, as long as you aren't using the same model to count as 2 different units (ex. 1 unit of glade guard as shadow warriors and another as sisters of the watch) I am fine with counts as, and most of my local TO's are as well. This means that it is a lot easier to have closer games, and therefore, more fun games as well.

Slaves FAQ dropped: https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/11/svsamFDWYszAvzJC.pdf Nothing too surprising, but I do appreciate that they explicitly banned Khorne hero's from the Cabalists subfaction. Additionally, if your hero got buffs from the Eyes of the Gods table, and then becomes a daemon prince, he keeps those buffs... which is nice I guess?

In general, I tend to be fairly active with my bows. Sylvaneth don't exactly have a ton to work with in the way of screens, so against anyone with the mobility to threaten my warsong (ex. deepstrike, teleports, fast movement, etc) I will use them as a "second layer" of screening - after all, it is 30 wounds on a 3+ save... and it is pretty easy to stick them into cover too, though that does require buying/bringing more woods with your army. Then, once my opponent commits, or I clear out threats to my warsong, I'll start hopping them through woods to sit on objectives, or take objectives, or to threaten things that my opponent was trying to keep out of the way. Usually this ends up being turns 1 and 2, they plink away while screening, while turns 3+ they move, and sometimes I even charge them in to hit stuff in melee... which is a lot more effective than you might think, because a squad of 6 can still get in for 12-18 attacks at 3+/3+/-/1, PLUS an average of 3 mortal wounds on top of that if I'm willing to stay in melee and not fade away. At this point, I'm usually doing this on weakened units, or because I have run out of other threats, but on the other hand, they tend to still be a full unit or only slightly injured which is more than you can say for most other things on the board by that point in time. Finally, remember that spites are not battleline by default - only in a dreadwood army. You can certainly run a squad, but you need to make sure you hit your battleline requirements somehow else. Now, I have seen some people running 12 kurnoths run 6 scythes and 2 squads of 3 bows, and I do intend to test that out at some point as it gives you 1 more shot, fills your battleline requirements, and better lets you choose your targets and split your attacks because you can hit with 1 squad, wait for the results, and then decide where to throw the rest of your shots at. On the other hand, doing this means giving up on all out attacking a single unit, which means if you are shooting at a non-hunt marked target you will be hitting on 4's with half a unit, you have less models to try to rally back, you can only mystic shield 1 squad (though, this only really becomes relevant if the scythes are dead, cause 9/10 I'll be mystic shielding my scythe hunters), and if you walk the spirit paths, you can only walk it with 3 guys at once rather than 6, which can be a bit of an inconvenience.

So I have played something very similar to your first list (and if you look back a page you will see exactly what I played and what my conclusions are). Overall, even if you get off the +5 to charge with durthu, he is still a whiff monster. Yes, there were certainly times that I smacked and he did ~30 damage after saves and just cleared whatever it was that he hit. At the same time, I have also successfully swung at something and did exactly 0 damage because my dice hated me, and the few attacks that got through my opponent saved. Once per game you can buff him up with finest hour to make him more consistent, but that really isn't enough to want to rely on him. If you look at what I'm considering for my next list, it looks very similar to your 2nd list, with 6 bows, 6 scythes, ancient, revenant, and spiteswarm hive. However, I decided to take the hit and drop to dryads instead of tree revenants so I could bring the arch-revenant. Basically, I found the Kurnoth Bows to be fairly unreliable, even with all out attack (or the +1 to hit your hunted targets), with my list consistently hitting and wounding only like 4-5 times out of its 13 attacks, and I'm not sure that they can really carry their weight without the arch-revenant. At the same time, having them there to finish off the last few wounds of a unit after the warsong hits them is quite nice. Additionally, dryads with their -1/-1 effect means that your opponent has to actually commit something to remove your screen, which is more than I can say happens for tree-revenants, so I find myself fine running dryads instead to force my opponent to overextend just to clear them. The most important thing though is battle regiment. Sylvaneth really, really don't want to get double-turned. The only way to "guarantee" that is to get a battle regiment and go second, and that second list fits into a battle regiment while the first will not. Then, even if you win priority, unless you can guarantee absolutely devastating your opponent, give away the turn so that you don't get doubled. By all means, experiment with your lists and find what works for you. But my personal recommendation is to do something that looks more like the second list you posted.

So I have been playing the following list for a bit, and also recently took it to a 1 day tournament where I went 1-2, with the win being by 6 points and the losses being by 1 and 2. I also played a number of practice games with this list and some small variations to it, with a noticeably better record than my tournament results. Allegiance: Sylvaneth - Glade: Heartwood - Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty Leaders Branchwych (130)** - Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth Spirit of Durthu (370)** - Artefact: Greenwood Gladius Treelord Ancient (360)** - Lore of the Deepwood: Regrowth Warsong Revenant (305)** - General - Command Trait: Spellsinger - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) - Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony Battleline 6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows (460)** - Reinforced x 1 10 x Dryads (100)* 10 x Dryads (100)* 10 x Dreadspears (85)* Endless Spells & Invocations Umbral Spellportal (80) Core Battalions *Expert Conquerors **Warlord Additional Enhancements Artefact Total: 1990 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 1 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 100 Drops: 8 The basic concept with this list is to have a solid mixed arms approach. I have a double-bomb available in the magic phase between the revenant (with spellsinger) and the brancwych (with spell portal), solid shooting in 6 bow hunters + treelord/durthu, and a solid melee threat in durthu. Overall, I am not overly pleased by this list. I find the list to be very swingy, with the double bombs either carrying the game on their own or doing exactly nothing, the Kurnoth bows being very inconsistent, and durthu not being reliable when it comes to charging. Additionally, as an 8 drop list, not being able to dictate turn order is bad, because sylvaneth really don't like being double-turned. That being said, I have a lot more respect for dryads now (especially in expert conquerers), because the -1/-1 effect they have really forces opponents to commit into them to clear them, which leads to good setup for counter-charge threats like durthu. Moving forward, I am looking to switch to the following list, which I expect to be more consistent: Allegiance: Sylvaneth - Glade: Heartwood - Grand Strategy: No Place for the Weak - Triumphs: Leaders Warsong Revenant (305)* - General - Command Trait: Spellsinger - Artefact: Arcane Tome (Universal Artefact) - Lore of the Deepwood: Verdurous Harmony Arch-Revenant (120)* Treelord Ancient (360)* - Lore of the Deepwood: Treesong Battleline 6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Scythes (500)* - Reinforced x 1 6 x Kurnoth Hunters with Kurnoth Greatbows (460)* - Reinforced x 1 10 x Dryads (100)* 10 x Dryads (100)* Endless Spells & Invocations Spiteswarm Hive (40) Core Battalions *Battle Regiment Total: 1985 / 2000 Reinforced Units: 2 / 4 Allies: 0 / 400 Wounds: 107 Drops: 1 This list has less spell power, but is more consistent in both shooting and melee due to the arch-revenant and the spiteswarm hive. Battle Regiment in a 1 drop also gives me control of turn priority, which means that I can go first against alpha armies, and 2nd against anything else. Arguments can be made for putting the dryads in conquerers to give better board control, but I'm not sold on that idea yet. Finally, since I see it being brought up a lot, I think you HAVE to have a minimum of 1 set of trees. Yes, the overgrown terrain is nice, but any battleplan that has the map split 50/50 can make getting sufficient overgrown terrain difficult, and the ability to put a tree down is vital to your gameplan. For a list with spellsinger, I think that you need at least 3 sets of trees, as I regularly ran out of trees to put down by turn 4. The only exception that I can think of for running trees is if you are going heavy on the bug riders, as their 14" movement means that you aren't relying on the trees for mobility like you would with any other sylvaneth list.

I recommend running the stats on them yourself - splintered fang are straight nuts. With no bonuses, and undivided mark, splintered fang do 14 damage vs no save, and 9.78 to a 4+, and 6.81 to a 2+. Note, this is a single squad of 10 splintered fang, costing you 100 points. Idolator Lord giving them the mark of Khorne, and charging buff this up to 18.67 damage vs no save, 12.83 to a 4+, and 8.94 to a 2+. Again, this is a single squad of 10, that you spent 100 points on. Lets compare this to their competition. The closest thing at the same points as them is Darkoath Savagers (which by the way can never get the khorne mark, they are always undivided). The darkoath guys dish out an average of 10.5 damage vs no save, 7 to a 4+, and 4.67 to a 2+. Sure, you can pump that up with an all out attack, or with the sorcerer lord's spell, but even the +1 to hit and +1 to wound only bumps it to 5.57 vs a 2+, though it does bump it to 9.72 vs a 4+. Again, this is a single squad of 10 dudes and assuming that all 10 get to attack. Now, lets compare these guys to the supposed "Hammer" units in StD - Chaos Knights and Chosen. Chaos Knights without any bonuses beyond charging are dishing out 13.17 damage vs no save, 10.14 vs a 4+, and 5.75 vs a 2+. Giving them the mark of Khorne, you can buff them up with +1 attack on the charge, and now you are at 17.75 damage vs no save, 13.54 vs a 4+, and 7.63 vs a 2+. Now, if we give them +1 to hit and +1 to wound (sorcerer lord, or all out attack + khorne banner), we can bump this up to 30 damage vs no save, 22.78 vs a 4+, and 12.78 vs a 2+. All for 230 points. Finally, Chosen. With no buffs (or say, mark of nurgle), a block of 5 chosen are dishing out 16.89 damage vs no save, 12.15 vs a 4+, and 7.41 vs a 2+. +1 attack (mark of khorne, or slaanesh banner and charging for both), and those chosen jump up to 22.17 vs no save, 15.94 vs a 4+, and 9.72 vs a 2+. Finally, bumping them up with +1/+1 and the +1 attack, and they are dishing out 32.67 vs no save, 22.94 vs a 4+, and 13.22 vs a 2+. All for 240 points. So what do all these numbers tell us? Point for Point, splintered fang are the strongest hammer in StD. Without spending CP or spells on buffs (ex. playing vs Lumineth that got off total eclipse and then said "NO" to all your spells), 100 points invested in Splintered Fang is going to dish out more damage than 230 points invested in chaos knights (and are less reliant on the charge), and those 100 points are also nearly as good as chosen at 240 points. They somewhat compensate for this in the fact that they only have a 6+ save instead of a 3+, and are slower, but they can also be returned via a heroic action in ravagers. I do think that the extra durability and mobility of Chaos Knights means that they still have a place (especially in Knights of the Empty Throne lists), but I also think that Splintered fang are in line for a solid nerf, and I can potentially see them being bumped up all the way to 150 points per 10.

Update to the Lumineth FAQ came out - Teclis now knows all spells in the lore, Avalenor is now Ymetrica locked, and Helon only gets +1 missile attacks if they shoot a target within 6" of the unit. Also, Alarith rend effects have been clarified. The example used was Ironjaws Waaagh, but it would also be relevant vs beasts of chaos and Daughters of Khaine. The ignore rend -2 effect happens before the modifier is added, which means that in the case of ironjaws, when they call the waagh and hit you with some rend -2 attacks that have been buffed to rend -3, the rend -2 is cancelled out by the Alarith trait, and they get hit by rend -1. Basically, if you have +rend effects, Alarith blocks the base rend level, and then the bonus rend takes effect afterwards. Luckily, bonus rend isn't that common, but I expect a lot of confusion regarding this nontheless.

When looking at the various marks, Khorne is the easiest and the flashiest, which is why most people are gravitating towards it. After all, everyone wants more attacks, especially with the unit that got the biggest glowup in this book - Chaos Knights. To top that all off, Khorne easily has the best allies to pull from with potentially up to 3 additional units providing +1 attack aura's AND the bloodstoker for more movement (whereas nurgle provides not much, tzeentch some spell casters, and slannesh... Sigvald? some poor shooting?). All of this combines to make them the easiest mark for people to gravitate to. Especially when everyone who had a bunch of knights really wanted to charge with them and have something happen. After that, nurgle is the easiest to discern the value of. -1 to wound makes thing more tanky. Put on 3+ save unit, laugh at opponent. Simple enough. After that, the next most obvious one is slaanesh for +1 to run and charge, and a CP for run and charge. Extra mobility is always nice, but can be difficult to use well, and isn't as obvious as khorne and nurgle. Their banner lets you combine that together with the +1 attacks on charges that Khorne gets as well for some extra fun, and they also have the warshrine prayer for 3d6 charge on top of that. From here, we can see solid reasons to play all 3 of these marks, all for different reasons. Heck, you might play all 3 of these marks in the same list. None of them make the mathhammer nerds tingle more than khorne, but there is something for everyone here. Then we get to Tzeentch. Lets be honest here, unless you are facing tzeentch, the 6+ spell shrug is rather mediocre (and even then, 6+ is just poor), which means the utility of this is all built around how good the teleport is... but the teleport is teleporting to near the caster, not from near the caster to somewhere else on the board, which makes it a lot more difficult to evaluate. Honestly, if this actually allowed movement afterwards, I think this could have had some game, but since they just FAQ'd that out, I think tzeentch isn't going to be seen much. It is one of those fiddly things that requires a good plan to pull off well... and then you get stuck in that 1 mission that prevents teleporting and all your plans fall apart. Finally, undivided. The problem with undivided is that you aren't getting a reliable effect - you are rolling 2d6 for a hero, or 1d6+2 for a unit, and then getting... something. Is it good? Who knows! I mean, normally, I would love that +1 rend effect, but I just know I'm going to roll that when I get matched up against nighthaunt and it doesn't matter. Or how about the 2+ spell ignore effect vs the no-caster opposing army? YAY! While this mark may appeal to some people because of its random effects, and the ability to build up the random effects over the course of the game can be very impactful (rend -3 chaos warriors? Don't mind if I do), it can also not happen at all or just make no difference in the course of the game, and therefore is unreliable. Basically, we have 3 good effects that match their god well, 1 effect of questionable utility that also still matches their god well, and undivided which is great for people who want to play slots. I think they did a good job of designing them, and due to the banner enhancements on top of that (and the fact you can't run 2 of the same enhancement), I think many good armies will have a solid mix of marks in them. But 3 of them are still noticeably better than the other 2, and one of those 3 can be harder to make use of as well.

First, a major problem with your list. You cannot run command entourage as it requires 2 subcommanders, and you only have 1 in your list (lady of vines and durthu's are all commanders as they are all 10+ wounds). Next, if you are doing a big tree list, I think you have to run warsinger. The +3" movement means that you aren't solely reliant on teleporting for mobility, and can instead have a base movement of 8" instead of 5". This is still not "fast", but it is going to be really helpful for getting into position, especially against magic-dom armies that can prevent you from placing trees. Following that, while the greenwood gladius is better for a single durthu's output, once you get 2+ of them hitting the same target, the crown of fell bowers might be better for you as it will buff everyone attacking a target rather than just the artefact bearer. Finally, while triple durthu is definitely meme-worthy, you could consider dropping 1 durthu, 1 unit of tree revenants, and 1 of your endless spells to make room for 2 treelords. 2 treelords actually outdamage a single unbuffed durthu, AND they can also prevent pileins from your opponent as long as they hit them (not wound, just hit) which can help you control the battlefield some more and dictate your engagements better.

You would do better to drop the frostheart for something else. On its own, it really doesn't provide a lot of damage, and your list is otherwise lacking in damage. You would do better to just run a Celestial Hurricanum instead, as that will at least buff up the Ironclad and Krondys offensively. All that being said, I think the better option would be to drop the frostheart, warden king, and one of the ironbreakers for the more traditional 20-30 Irondrakes, which is going to give you a significantly better hammer than the frostheart, and due to Krondys and the runelord, they can effectively hit at rend -3. A more realistic approach would be to say that you should probably look to run either the ironclad or krondys, but running both is investing too much in big centerpieces that can't really carry their own weight consistently. As the proud owner to 2 stardrakes (and eying up a 3rd), I will happily say that sometimes it is fun to do that, but you should never fool yourself into thinking it is a good idea, only a fun one.

The only reason I see to run reinforced units of windchargers is if you need to get into battle regiment. Yes, a reinforced unit gets the benefit of all out attack, but unless you are taking a block of 15, I'm not seeing that as really where you want to be spending your CP's. They aren't strong melee units either, so having a reinforced unit to hit harder there isn't a huge bonus. That being said, getting into battle regiment is important enough that you may still see reinforced squads so that you can fit into it. Also, just got around to watching Warhammer Weekly on the new book, and at the end (3:03:40) he states that allies are Daughters, IDK, Sylvaneth and Stormcast, so unless he failed to read the page properly, no Cities allies.

It may be that the image I got was too blurred, but from the GMG review I saw Stormcast, DoK, Idoneth, and Sylvaneth as the only allies. I will of course be confirming once I can get my book this weekend, but I didn't see Cities on that list.

Winning with Lumineth got a lot harder because you can't rely on Sentinels to carry you anymore. However, the biggest buff to Lumineth was the change to Shining Company, because now you can get offensive with your wardens and bladelords while still keeping your defensive buffs. I also do think that you need to make sure that you aren't sleeping on the offensive power of wardens because they can actually be surprisingly killy. Being able to choose your engagements makes coming out on top a lot more likely, and previously you had to give up your defensive buffs to be able to choose your engagements with them. I think that the end result is that the best Lumineth armies are going to be mixed arms forces. All this being said, I'm not sure that Lumineth will be all that successful until bounty hunters goes away simply because we have to have our battleline, and unless you go Helon that will have to be Galletian Veterans. Below are some of the builds that I am looking to test, and keep in mind that basically everything is going to be a battle regiment unless I specifically note otherwise. Mixed Arms: Vanari Lord Regent Scinari Enlightener Light of Eltharion 2x 20 Wardens 30 Sentinels Ballista 1-2 units of dawnriders or windchargers This is the list that I'm highest on, though I expect there to be some tweaking needed with exact numbers. The reason I'm high on it is that you have 2 hammers that can both strike at once in the wardens, you have sufficient ranged power in the sentinels and ballista's, and you have the dawnriders or windchargers for objective snagging or general mobility, giving you a well rounded force. This list I would prefer to run in Zaitrek, because that +1 to casting rolls is so valuable in my experience, but the exact distribution of spells is definitely up in the air. Teclis focused: Teclis Scinari Enlightener 30-40 wardens 30-40 Sentinels Umbral Spellportal I don't think that teclis focused builds changed all that much, as you want to run teclis, another dude as your general, and then have some wardens for screening and smashing, and some sentinels for shooting. Here, I am operating under the assumption that there was a typo and Teclis is going to get FAQ'd to know all of the lore spells, as without that I'm not sure that he is going to be worth 700 points. The biggest question comes down to points, and whether it is worth running 2 squads of sentinels side by side for the extra range, or running a single squad and using the teleport spell to get them into position as needed. Additionally, whether the wardens are blocks of 10, or blocks of 20 is still up in the air. All this being said, this build has clearly been nerfed without lambent light, and I'm of the opinion that this is likely the least viable of potential builds, but also the easiest for people who previously had competitive lists to test out. Melee Time: Scinari Enlightener The Light of Eltharion Avalenor 3x 20 wardens 20 Sentinels This build is looking to focus on the melee hitting power of wardens, with Avalenor and the Light of Eltharion backing them up and the sentinels there solely to pick up support pieces or fragile ranged units that you might otherwise run into issues beating. Arguments could be made for a Vanari Lord-Regent instead of the Enlightener, and once again I would probably run Zaitrec with this list, though you could go Ymetrica to let Avalenor ignore rend -2, alumnia for better objective control, or Syar for more aetherquartz fun times. Stoneguard: Alarith Stonemage Avalenor Scinari Enlightener 15 Stoneguard 2x 10 wardens 2x 20 Sentinels I may be down on Stoneguard, but I'm willing to give them a chance. Like I have stated earlier, I don't believe it is worth investing in more than a single squad of them, but you can take that squad, back it up with Avalenor and a stonemage, and make it do some work for you. I'm not entirely sure of how points works out with this build, so you might swap the enlightener out for a Cathellar, and I could also see arguments for a Lord-Regent as well. This is also a build where it is arguable that you might want Expert Conquerers so that you can get that 4+ ward against mortals on the stoneguard more consistently, but there is also still a reasonable argument for staying battle regiment. Ranged Superiority: Windmage Cathellar Sevireth 2x 20 Sentinels 2x 10 Windchargers 5 Windchargers This obviously has to be a Helon army for battleline reasons alone. Personally, I'm pretty doubtful about this list's performance because its damage output is so low, but at the same time, it has nearly unmatched mobility and you would need to remember that you can pile your windchargers OUT of combat (and 6"), which makes this a hard list for many to engage with. Unless it REALLY impresses me though, I'm proxying this one for a bit, because I really, really don't want to paint another 20 windchargers... Overall, as I said I'm highest on the mixed arms build and expect that to do the best of the options I'm considering. However, the build that I am most excited to try out is the melee build, but that might just be because I like melee armies. I do however wish that Lumineth could take Cities as allies, because backing up a squad of wardens with a frostheart phoenix seems like a dream made in heaven to me.

I'll be blunt back - anything that can go through 20 wardens will also go through 10 stoneguard. I've lost 20 wardens to 10 witch elves, to 2 fulminators, to a single terrorgheist, to getting bodied by nurgle flies, to random shooting. And all of these will go through 10 stoneguard. My armies are proven in battle as well. See, look, my statement now means just as much as yours does. However, I'm going to bet that I have just as many games with the new book as you do (aka, none). Is my army going to change with the new book? Of course it is - it was being hard-carried by sentinels + lambent light before anyways, just like everyone else's, and that build has clearly gone. Now I can actually try an offensive warden build, or test out windchargers, or see if the light of eltharion can carry its weight.