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Hey, caution, wall of text incoming. I recently posted this in a german forum but didnt receive as much feedback, as I would have hoped for. So I need some help with some of my lists. Normally I'm playing easy-going lists with the focus on visuals and fluff, not general level of strenghs. As it seems this kind of dictum is rarely seen in tournament play so I decided to create some lists with a bit more punch for these rare occasions. So here is the task: create a 1k Points list (Generals Handbook) consisting of the various entries mentioned below. It would be nice if you try to avoid the compendium, since its not always allowed. Buying new stuff falls flat because I only want to play full painted and my Orkproject is finished - I got everything I wanted back in the days and the only thing I may add are some Squighoppers. So the challenge is that you are limited in your decisions to what I have. Here is what I have and what you are "allowed" to choose from: Heroes Gordrakk/Maw Crusher Azagh/Warboss on Whyvern Megaboss Weirdnob Shaman Skarsnik Grimgork Blackorkboss Gorbad/Warboss Ork Greatshaman Goblinboss on Gigantula Savageork Waaaghboss 2x Nightgoblin Schaman Units 20 Savageorks (no bows) 22 Orkboys (no bows) 2x 20 Nightgoblins (no bows) --> would prefer to play 20, since the other 20 are not painted by me - you know: reasons... 4 Fanatics 10 Spiderriders (no bows) 20 Blackorks/Ardboys 10 Orcs on Boars 5 Brutes 3 Gore Gruntas 3 Rivertrolls 3 Stonetrolls Monsters Manglersquigs Arachnarock Giant Dread Maw Warmachines Kamikazekatapult Rocklobba To not run into the same discussions again I will post general problems as well as my position on certain things and why I am thinking that way. Of course you are always allowed to prove me wrong and change my oppinion. 1. I see a general problem with my battlelineunits. AoS is favouring themed armys quite heavily. Now coming from Fantasy, the old Ork and Goblin Army was a colourfull mix of flat ouse these races. In AoS there are so many Sub-Factions within the Orks&Goblins, that it becomes really hard to (efficiently) as you played before (namely a mix of both). It seems like you play Goblin/Orks/Bonesplitterz/Ironjaws only now without mixing too much. No hard feelings here btw., just appointing the issues I am facing. Consequentially I struggle to find usefull battleline units since I'm very limited to bare Orcs/Savageorcs/Nightgoblins. I feel like playing 10 Orks/Savageorcs is a waste of points (at least without bows). So either I commit into a huge battleline pointsink making the Orks usefull or I will field 2x 20 Nightgoblins instead. The problem there is that I dont feel like 20 are any effective. 40 would be cool with the buffs triggering at this size, but then the Problem with my second battlelineunit occurs. I will discuss this in more detail at my previous findings later on. 2. A lot of buffs trigger at a relative high modelcount which i cant provide, given the models I have. 3. For ranged combat I only got my two warmachines. 4. I may discuss this here, cause its mostly overlooked in the Listdiscussions - The Fanatics and the Nightgoblin Shamans. I really struggly to justify the Fanatics in my Armylists. Back in the ppc days I often played a min-Nightgobbounit with one Fanatic to block the opposing charge and determine my chargetargets by myself. These days the basecost of the Nightgobbos (120) + one Fanatic (+30) arent just doing it for me anymore. 150 for the chance to avoid a charge in the opponents turn is way too much if im not going allin into the Nightgoblinconcept anyways. Same with multiple Fanatics inside the Nightgoblins. If im all-in on the nightgobboapproach I will have a big blob of normal gobbos and (lets exxagerate) 10 Fanatics inside of them. The Problem I see is both of em want to strike first and the normal gobbos will fall down efficiencywise, cause the enemy was able to kill some of em in return. Additionally the 10 Fanatics would be a pretty huge and predictable pointsink. Lets we only play 3 Fanatics - 90 Points 3d6 Attacks 4+/3+ d3 damage.. Yeah they bring the important rend, but there wont cause too many wounds with these statlines. So the Question I always see mayself being confronted with: do I play one "blockerfanatic" in every unit of Nightgoblins (so in my case two in total) or do I put up one Nightgoblin Shaman instead (60 Points), which for me is always the better choise. Considering the fact I got minimum 40 Nightgobbos on the field I dont really need the chargeblocking feature anymore since i can pretty much dictate and influence the enemys movement with smart positioning of these Models alone (considering we're speaking about 1k points). I would take one (!) Fanatic if i had 30 points left to spent but thats rarely the case. Most of the time its 10-20... So enough talk, here is what I came up with: Spider-Approach Leaders Grot Big Boss On Gigantic Spider (100) Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280) Moonclan Grot Shaman (60) Units Grot Spider Riders x 10 (200) Moonclan Grots x 20 (120) Moonclan Grots x 20 (120) Behemoths War Machines Grot Rock Lobber (100) Batallions Total: 980/1000 So I feel this is the best thing I came up with until now. You could switch the Lobber and get a blob of 40 gobbos and 10 orcs. I think the 2x 20 grots and the lobber are the more efficient way to go, since I have good experiences with this thing. You could switch the Lobber with a Kamikaze, but I find the lobber to be more effective (back in the ppc-days it was even more expensive - with justification if you ask me). I could just buy 20 more spiders, but on the one hand I'm not that kind of guy and would play these outside of tournaments anyways, on the other hand I reject new purchases at this point. Nightgoblin Approach Leaders Skarsnik, Warlord Of The Eight Peaks (100) Moonclan Grot Shaman (60) Moonclan Grot Shaman (60) Units Orruk Brutes x 5 (180) Moonclan Grots x 20 (120) Moonclan Grots x 20 (120) Behemoths Mangler Squigs (240) War Machines Grot Rock Lobber (100) Batallions Total: 980/2000 So the guys in the german forum where all like: oh play nightgoblins; manglersquigs are the s**t ... verbiage. Dont get me wrong I think they are quite fun to play, but I feel like in a tournementenviroment it seems like they struggle to deliver. In my oppinion this got proven in the recent tourney of GW which was streamed on twitch.. A popular, but not as hamering army. Additionally Skarsnik is in here and I said that I want to avoid the Compendium (he isnt allowed to take artefacts cause he is a named character as well, right?). The Problem is you really can't simple replace him with a normal NG-Warboss, since hes got only 4 Wounds which is way to little in a tournament environment I feel. I really like the manglersquigs but in the 6 tournamentgames I played recently they only once really shined despite getting always the perfect charge on my preferred target (one exception though). In the first place this list had 1x and 3x Fanatics in it, but i decided to replace them for two NG-Shamans (reasons discussed above). You could switch the Lobber for a Kamikaze again or change the Brutes with Trolls to increase the stylefactor... but thats not what this thread is about I feel like this is a fun list to play in a friendly match, but i dont see it on a tournament level regarding to strength. Warboss Approach Leaders Orruk Warboss (140) Arachnarok Spider With Grot Shaman (280) Units Orruk Brutes x 5 (180) Orruks x 20 (200) Savage Orruks x 20 (200) Behemoths War Machines Batallions Total: 1000/1000 I feel like there is a lot of potential in the warboss. In this list however there are way to much points in average to bad performing battleline units. Any Ideas to change this? Ironjaws Approach Leaders Orruk Megaboss (140) Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120) Units Orruk Ardboys x 20 (360) Orruk Brutes x 5 (180) Orruk Gore Gruntas x 3 (180) Behemoths War Machines Batallions Total: 980/1000 Just to name it. I dont consider this to be very strong, since the Shaman is overpriced with the 3 rules of 1 and the Gruntas arent really costeffective. A Maw Crusher is hard to justify at 1k points and even if he would fit in I would prefer Gordrakk himself (my MawCrusher performed... lets say below average). interim conclusion So for me the first list based on spiders is the most potent one and the actual favourite, especialle because it brings the important mortal wounds onto the field. The problem is I'm still not very satisfied with this, because I still wouldnt stand a chance against the stronger lists from the last tournament - Highelves, Seraphon and Khemri.. against the latter I wasnt able to kill a single model ~~ So this is why I also came up with this thread... to avoid such doubtful experiences in the future. So can you come up with some improvements or even a new/stronger approach? I know it will be hard, since the assortment is quite limited, but I am confident in you Try to get the best out of this mess!