AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, BaronBanana said:

Thanks for the advice.  Would bringing in marauders vs acolytes be more beneficial or are fate points and summoning essential?  Bringing marauders would let me take Kairos

Marauders are definitely solid, and moreso with Archaon because he can buff them with his command ability. Losing the 3 spells and ranged attacks would hurt a touch, but it could work either way. Maybe swap two units over to marauders to get the spare points and keep one kairic? That should free up 100 points for Kairos, a spell portal, and the changes I mentioned earlier.

Edit: I should say though, the LoC may be better in the list. The buff for Archaons casting is good, and he uses the pyrofane artifact well.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Grimrock

[PUFNSTUF]

Can archaon be part of a cult? If so I might actually have to pick him up...

[Landohammer]

So is it just me or is the Changeling essentially an auto-include?

Even if you completely disregard his teleport, you still get 2 guaranteed casts for 120pts on top of a fantastic debuff.

As a Demon character he also gets the Locus. So if you camp him near some horrors he can essentially guarantee your horrors are -2 to hit right? 

 

[Sinfullyvannila]

9 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

So is it just me or is the Changeling essentially an auto-include?

Even if you completely disregard his teleport, you still get 2 guaranteed casts for 120pts on top of a fantastic debuff.

As a Demon character he also gets the Locus. So if you camp him near some horrors he can essentially guarantee your horrors are -2 to hit right? 

 

Yeah he’s pretty insane. Give him Treason of Tzeentch and he’s also debuffing additional -1. I consider him 160 though because I include Tome of Eyes in his cost since he doesn’t have a warscroll spell. Also, with pinks not giving Fate Points, having an extra cast is not as valuable as it would have been before.

Still an absolute steal though.

Edited January 17, 2020 by Sinfullyvannila

[Havkai]

Hello!
Please, help me in my trouble. I can't understand trait of cult of transient form. I says add a TZAANGOR. Does it also count enlightments and skyfires?

[HarbingerGaming]

1 minute ago, Havkai said:

Hello!
Please, help me in my trouble. I can't understand trait of cult of transient form. I says add a TZAANGOR. Does it also count enlightments and skyfires?

It does not. That is referring to the keyword <Tzaangor>, which neither the Enlightened nor the Skyfires have.

[Sinfullyvannila]

2 minutes ago, Havkai said:

Hello!
Please, help me in my trouble. I can't understand trait of cult of transient form. I says add a TZAANGOR. Does it also count enlightments and skyfires?

No because TZAANGOR X =/= TZAANGOR 

[Landohammer]

50 minutes ago, Sinfullyvannila said:

Yeah he’s pretty insane. Give him Treason of Tzeentch and he’s also debuffing additional -1. I consider him 160 though because I include Tome of Eyes in his cost since he doesn’t have a warscroll spell. Also, with pinks not giving Fate Points, having an extra cast is not as valuable as it would have been before.

Still an absolute steal though.

I think maybe his value diminishes a bit without endless spells in the list, but I imagine most Tzeentch players will be including at least 1-2. So he will always have something to do. I don't imagine I would ever use his teleport unless someone leaves a critical objective wide open turn 1. 

In a Guild of Summoners list he is just too cheap to pass up. With a vortex he can get me a third of the way to a LoC on turn 1!  

[Sinfullyvannila]

3 minutes ago, Landohammer said:

I think maybe his value diminishes a bit without endless spells in the list, but I imagine most Tzeentch players will be including at least 1-2. So he will always have something to do. I don't imagine I would ever use his teleport unless someone leaves a critical objective wide open turn 1. 

In a Guild of Summoners list he is just too cheap to pass up. With a vortex he can get me a third of the way to a LoC on turn 1!  

I’m just saying, if Endless spells are put in his list to give him something to do, his effective cost increases in the same manner as a Gaunt Summoners effective cost decreases proportionate to the value of what he summons.

Let me rephrase it though, even I calculate his cost as high as 180 with Geminids; he’s still an absolute steal.

[Paniere]

don't overrate the Changeling,  since turn 1 he will do nothing else giving locus in enemy territory. if he survives turn 1 then yea, he s great

[Freejack02]

33 minutes ago, Paniere said:

don't overrate the Changeling,  since turn 1 he will do nothing else giving locus in enemy territory. if he survives turn 1 then yea, he s great

I somewhat agree, but you don't have to use his Arch-Deceiver deployment - which means he just acts as a normal 2/2 Wizard for 120 points (which is great value). Not having a warscroll spell hurts, but as already discussed above Endless Spells give him a real purpose along with the Puckish debuff. 

[Sinfullyvannila]

47 minutes ago, Paniere said:

don't overrate the Changeling,  since turn 1 he will do nothing else giving locus in enemy territory. if he survives turn 1 then yea, he s great

You have the option of redeploying. You can just deploy normally and then opt out of it.

[willange]

So why would I use Arch-Deceiver?  It seems like if I put him back there he'll just get blown up (assuming the opponent is positioned for it).  I also can't cast the spells after the teleport, so it just seems limited to me.  Am I reading it wrong?

[Sumanye]

1 minute ago, willange said:

So why would I use Arch-Deceiver?  It seems like if I put him back there he'll just get blown up (assuming the opponent is positioned for it).  I also can't cast the spells after the teleport, so it just seems limited to me.  Am I reading it wrong?

Even if you never use it, just the threat that you could may change how your opponent plays, especially if you make them go first and have a chance at the double.  Also, he can give out locus to change host units as others noted.  One other cool use is to summon turn 1.  For guild of summoners, he can drop a LoC deep in enemy territory which might be interesting.

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, willange said:

So why would I use Arch-Deceiver?  It seems like if I put him back there he'll just get blown up (assuming the opponent is positioned for it).  I also can't cast the spells after the teleport, so it just seems limited to me.  Am I reading it wrong?

You've got it right, and honestly I don't think the ability will be used very often. I can see it as a potential threat on backline objectives, but that's risky on turn one. If the scenario is scorched earth you could do it and still deploy near the middle in relative safety while threatening a deployment in the back.

He is a hero so it's possible he could drop at the bottom of one and summon in a unit of Blues as a screen if enough spells have been cast. That's 25 wounds at a -1 to hit and essentially immune to battleshock with destiny dice, so tanky enough to force a decent enemy unit to come over and deal with him. Still pretty worth for 120 points.

[Gwendar]

On 1/16/2020 at 6:04 PM, Sumanye said:

I actually think skyfires are pretty good now

Just to go back to this quickly, I really like that you looked into this.. I never considered Skyfires getting into combat but I've really been thinking of finding 6 of them a home somewhere. I ran the numbers myself and yeah, they really have no need for a Shaman unless you want to counteract Look out, Sir as the +1 to hit only adds 1-2 damage on average.



Obviously buffed Enlightened are definitely doing significantly more, but in practice I find them harder to use and they crumple quite easily.. and the amount of ASF\FL going on in this game... yeah. It worked well in BoC due to sitting behind a cheap Ungor screen, but you still risk being hit by 2" weapons or multicharges ensuring you don't get the buffs by the time you fight.. like I said they can be harder to use.

Skyfires? Throw out some shots, maybe delete a character\bracket a monster and at the very least you have something that can likely handle weakly guarded objectives for 400 points. So yeah.. I'm a fan. The question for me is what Coven do they fit with? I don't plan to run Tzaangors so I've mostly been considering Pyrofane\Summoners.


EDIT: Just out of curiosity, I ran the numbers against 9 Flamers + Exalted (shooting at <10 models, no Aura or RR's) and the combined damage is about 3 less on average for 60 points less. This is assuming you just calculate the Flamer shooting as I don't think you will ever want them in melee unlike Skyfires. Tradeoffs of course being a less versatile unit, less wounds\worse save, lack of mortals and 27" threat range opposed to 40".

What I'm getting at, is that if you want to run a shooting based list, I think the two could actually work quite well together by having the Flamers hit their preferred 10\20+ model targets while the Enlightened plink away at Heroes\Behemoths. But yeah.. could just be for fun. If you plan to do that, you're obviously not running Changehost on top of it unless you fill up your 8 slots with Brims.

Edited January 18, 2020 by Gwendar
added more comparisons

[Sinfullyvannila]

4 hours ago, Grimrock said:

You've got it right, and honestly I don't think the ability will be used very often. I can see it as a potential threat on backline objectives, but that's risky on turn one. If the scenario is scorched earth you could do it and still deploy near the middle in relative safety while threatening a deployment in the back.

He is a hero so it's possible he could drop at the bottom of one and summon in a unit of Blues as a screen if enough spells have been cast. That's 25 wounds at a -1 to hit and essentially immune to battleshock with destiny dice, so tanky enough to force a decent enemy unit to come over and deal with him. Still pretty worth for 120 points.

If you’re running Hosts Arcanum him and your screamers can really threaten backfield mages. 

[Malakithe]

My take on a Pyrofane + Witchfyre list.  The battalion is strange but it is what it is. Most lists like this ive seen have people have a unit of 30 Acolytes then smaller units. To me that falls under 'putting all your eggs in one basket'. With 30, 20, 20 your opponent will have to deal with all 3 units or risk getting roasted by whichever one happens to be in the best place at that time. Ideally the Fatemaster will hang out with the unit of 30 and they will blast the ****** out of everything in sight. the LoC is the best hero for the cult artifact hands down. Shaman of course hangs with the Enlightened. Heroes cast pew pew spells. The Tome is there for rerolls and having another spell is always nice.  

Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Lore of Fate: Shield of Fate
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Unchecked Mutation
30 x Kairic Acolytes (300)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened (200)
Witchfyre Coven (160)
Tome of Eyes (40)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Wounds: 124
 

[NJohansson]

7 hours ago, Gwendar said:

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, I ran the numbers against 9 Flamers + Exalted (shooting at <10 models, no Aura or RR's) and the combined damage is about 3 less on average for 60 points less. This is assuming you just calculate the Flamer shooting as I don't think you will ever want them in melee unlike Skyfires. Tradeoffs of course being a less versatile unit, less wounds\worse save, lack of mortals and 27" threat range opposed to 40".

One thing to take into consideration is that the Skyfires are not battleline - while the flamers most probably are. Moreover the flamers are (as mentioned) part of the Changehost, so point efficiency is probably with the flamers when building the whole list.

[iogaa]

Not a lot of 1000pts lists around here. What I came up with:

Quote

Allegiance: Tzeentch
 - Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult
LEADERS
Magister (100)
- Artefact : Chainfire Amulet  
- Lore of Fate : Shield of Fate
Ogroid Thaumaturge (160)
- General
- Command Trait : Shrouded in Unnatural Flame  
- Lore of Fate : Infusion Arcanum
UNITS
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Tzaangors (360)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
TOTAL: 1000/1000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 92

• The 20 acolytes would do good ranged damage, get buffed by acolytes' spell and our cult's  command ability.
• The 10 acolytes are mostly a screen to prevent tzaangor getting charged, while triggering their banner.
• Tzaangors will try to get the 9" charge agenda, after which they become really scary (+1 attack for both their real weapon and their beak)
• Not sure about the magister, I mostly included him so chainfire amulet wouldn't be useless, he should remain close to the tzaangors, to buff them and trigger their banner.
• Not sure about the screamers either, I had 80 points remaining...

Edited January 18, 2020 by iogaa
formatting

[Xyxel]

1. The Changeling - Pucklish Misdirection
This ability happens in any moment of enemy hero phase ?? Can it be used before he dies from MW spells/abilities?

2. Mutative Flux (Burining Sigil of Tzeentch endless spell)
On 3-4 roll a move of D6" allows to get out of combat coherence? or into combat?

3. Fold Reality spell. Lets say unit of 10 Pink Horrors lose wounds, change to Blues, change to Brims.
Last 1 Brimstone Horro model remains. This spell returns 2+ Pink Horrors?

Edited January 18, 2020 by Xyxel

[Hebroseph]

Have not heard much talk about the Daemon prince of tzeentch that the StD book reworked for us. Hes a little more expensive, but his melee profile got way better. I've been thinking about taking him with the warpfire blade so that hit rolls of 6 deal 4 mw which is a pretty baller package on a fast, flying, always fight first model whos -1 to hit because hes a daemon hero. 

[SleeperAgent]

I'm debating starting a chaos army between Tzeentch and Slaanesh. What do you guys think of this list?

Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum    
Realm: Ulgu

General:
Lord of Change (380)
-Spell Hunters
-The Fanged Circlet
-Tzeentch's Firestorm
Gaunt Summoner on Disc of Tzeentch (260)
-Arcane Suggestion
Slaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)
-Miasmatic Blade
-Mark of Tzeentch (pretty sure it has to be)
The Blue Scribes  (120)
-Fold Reality
The Changeling (120)
-Bolt of Tzeentch
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
-Treason of Tzeentch

Battleline:

6x Screamers of Tzeentch (160)
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Battalion:
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells:
Balewind Vortex (40)
Daemonic Simulacrum (50)
Tome of Eyes (40)
Malevolent Maelstrom (10)

2000/2000 Wounds: 96 (+18 from The Fanged Circlet Screamers summon, +50 from the Gaunt Summoner free Pink Horrors with splits, 164 total)

Edited January 18, 2020 by SleeperAgent

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, NJohansson said:

One thing to take into consideration is that the Skyfires are not battleline - while the flamers most probably are. Moreover the flamers are (as mentioned) part of the Changehost, so point efficiency is probably with the flamers when building the whole list.

Right, I was more or less trying to make a case that they have different roles (that varies based on how you run them I guess) and can be used in tandem decently well. Finding the points for it is impossible in Changehost without filling with 60 point Brims so I would never consider them in that build.

Not that it's required.. like I said, 27" threat range is still great to have outside Changehost and it would allow you to fit in 6-9 Skyfires along with 9-12 Flamers + Exalted if you really wanted to. Little over half your points of course 😉

[NJohansson]

Trying something non Changehost - while still flamer based:

Eternal Conflagration 

Lord of Change, General, Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame Command Trait: Coruscating Flames

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch, Artefact: Wellspring of Arcane Might

Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch

The Blue Scribes

4 units of Flamers of Tzeentch x 3 

2 units of Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch x1 

Battalion - Warpflame Host

Endless Spells

Aethervoid Pendulum

Geminids of Uhl-Gysh

Purple Sun of Shyish

The Burning Head

Total 1990pts

5 drops. 

 

Biggest question is if I should drop 1 unit of flamers/and or some Endless Spells for some screens (the army is really vulnerable to A-strikes)?