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988 Celestant-Prime


About Gwendar

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    Lord Celestant

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  1. Yeah I know, that's the biggest issue I have with it... not having Winds of Chaos hurts but hopefully Treason combined with the other stuff can do alright. Like I said before I've never been able to get HA to work for me but a lot of top tournament players have. I just don't think it suites me compared to my HD or Conflag lists πŸ˜… Speaking of the latter, been theorycrafting up a non-changehost version of my Conflag list to incorporate Be'lakor + Kairos. Doubt I'll like it more since the 1 drop is so strong, but having Be'lakor + Kairos is also strong. Especially with a Daemonrift that can be thrown out from off the Bridge:
  2. Ah, makes sense then πŸ˜… Yeah, I really need to give HA another try since the only time I tried it was with Skyshoal and.. well, that was a mistake. I'm just enjoying the HD lists too much though. This is an alternate take on the double chicken HA list I'm keen to run: Kinda want to try Geminids over BW to stack -'s to hit against the Pinks (or teleport the Fluxmaster, summon the 6 Screamers and throw it out to make them harder to hit) but I dunno, think I'll try this for now. Cogs giving Kairos 4 casts seems nice though and not something I think I would want to change.
  3. I've mostly dropped them, but just for the reason that I'd rather run Fiends + Stormvermin and Grinder and it's hard to get them in. Acolytes + Jezzails + Stormvermin is still valid enough, but I've just found Fiends more able to stand getting shot at compared to Acolytes who take 1-2 turns to get where they're needed (for me at least). Full melee is probably the safest just because you won't lost 80% of your damage from your 1-2 Skryre Wizards dying. I'd say bringing 9-12 Jezzails with that is still a good call if you can fit them in, just because they give you a long-range shooting option and aren't wholly reliant on a Skryre Wizard to do damage like Fiends\Acolytes are.
  4. Nice, always keen to hear how games go for people, especially with less common lists. Any reason for Burning Sigil over Balewind? It works pretty well with the Changecaster + Bolt.
  5. Got another one for you all with the same HD Magic list; this time vs Seraphon. Discussion is always appreciative πŸ˜…
  6. My List Seraphon List T1 He outdrops me and elects me to go first I manage to get 9 FP and kill the Starpriest via a Blue Scribes 2+ roll on the portal and the Slann failing to unbind Gift of Change. I put the Chaos Spawn within range of the Carnosaur and both Knights units, but it ended up dying from the Carno. On his turn, the Slann does 3 MW's to the Changecaster and 1 to the Scribes with Comets call, otherwise everything just moves up a bit. 3-3 Tie end of t1 T2 I win priority and he removes the bottom right objective. A combination of Winds of Chaos, Gift of Change and Tzeentch's Firestorm manages to kill about half the skinks and Be'Lakor puts -1 to wound on the small unit of Knights. Scribes goes right to summon 10 Blues. Shooting is mostly insignificant and the Kairics charge the small Knights unit. Combat has 5 Kairics die with the rest running from BS while I kill 1 Knight with the Spawn. On his turn, I Be'lakor the left (blue) Knights unit and Kairos stops Comets Call and Stellar Tempest with 12's. Carnosaur, Slann, Terradons and middle Knight unit get a bit closer and the Skinks charge middle Pinks while Terradons charge left Pinks (he almost had enough room to get them into the Changecaster and Magister but coherency issues stopped that). Terradons kill 7 Pinks with the MW's and combat and I do mostly nothing back. 5-8 Seraphon end of my t1 T3 I win priority again, he removes bottom left objective. I finally get the Changecaster on the BW and put ~5 MW's into the Carnosaur. I throw out the Daemonrift to tag the Carno, middle (red) Knights and Skinks doing ~29 MW's in total, killing the Carnosaur and leaving 1 Skink and 1 Knight left, but I Arcane Bolt the last Skink off to free up the Pink unit. Gift the blue Knights to get a Chaos Spawn in range and Winds of Chaos kill 3 Terradons. At the end, I have 21 FP's. I summon 10 more Blues on the right and Magister runs left to get 10 more Blues onto the back left objective. Freshly summoned Blue's make the 9" charge top right, Pinks kill the last red Knight and BS finishes the Terradons. We call the game at this point. Tzeentch Major Victory end of game Overall ThoughtsI think this went about as well as the last game.. my biggest issues are spell priority and where to put the Chaos Spawns. It would've been better if I kept that first spawn on just getting the red Knights tied up and let the Carnosaur be.. spell priority is something I need to just right down as a guideline to speed up hero phase and make my decisions easier. Winning every priority helped a lot here, but I think the screens would've held up okay.. the spookiest part is Comets Call + Stellar Tempest so I was lucky to unbind both and the Slann's +2 to unbinds helped him out a lot in keeping the Changecaster off the BW. I still don't think I'm too keen on changing anything, but part of me wants to remove the Kairics and a Wizard to grab 10 more Pinks. Anyone can see that the Kairics are the weak spot in my screens but having all 6 Wizards is what makes this list function altogether; I can always summon more Blue's. As always thanks for reading and any comments or questions are appreciated. I may try to get a fun Troggoth game up tonight\tomorrow for anyone interested in that πŸ˜‰
  7. Right.. it's almost like half the team is stuck in the past and oblivious to what actually changed. Oh well.. I still love them even if others don't πŸ˜‰ Exactly, you're basically just giving up a large reason of what makes them great. If your intention is to keep them behind a screen, then you may just be better off using foot Enlightened, especially since if they're behind one of our many 32mm based screens, they won't be able to hit with the Discs anyway with that 1" range unless that screen gets 1-shot. You could get them behind Blues\Brims I guess, but again you're sacrificing speed and an opponent could easily just ignore them or shoot\MW them off. I've never been very impressed with them... Enlightened had a nice spotlight moment in BoC for a few months awhile back doing the above tactic but have since faded out. Their theoretical damage is quite high, but realistically in most cases 1-2 of them at best are going to be killed before you get to swing with your RR's, especially if you're trying to kill an equally punch unit (which they should be, otherwise just use Skyfires\Flamers). In those cases, you may actually lose 3-4 even if you tag the corner of a unit or potentially lose that many models attacking due to bad pile-ins if you couldn't base-to-base the opposing unit. 5-10 HGB can still easily clear a whole unit like nothing and then just fight again later.
  8. Right, and like I said I agree they need a reduction. It seems like GW is too afraid to drop them or Kurnoth Hunters with Bows down too much because way back in 1st edition they were both pretty solid and that fear is still engrained in their heads. I'm just saying you're more likely to shoot at that lone character with Skyfires than with Flamers outside of Changehost is all.. is it as strong? Absolutely not; on average 6 Skyfires maths out to around 3-4 damage.. but if I have no other use of a 6 then I'll probably use one on it if it's an important hero I wanna kill. I'll never disagree Enlightened aren't better by miles.. but again, I'm looking at the potential threat ranges and the fact that Skyfire can hit first. I usually lose 1-2 Enlightened by the time I get to fight with them to get the RR's. If you stack them behind a screen then that works better of course, I've just not been one for that playstyle.. especially in a shooting meta where things aren't charging the screen in front of them and would just shoot them off instead. I think it just shows that they really seem to be all over the place with decisions. On paper things seem to be okay but if they ran math or really played with things a bit more they just don't make sense, like you said.
  9. Ah, see I really like that. Although FP costs would need changing of course. No one would want another Slaanesh before their 6 month FAQ where you kill all the Keepers just for them to get 1-2 back next turn πŸ˜… It would just come in within 3" of the garrison
  10. Sure, but I guess it's hard for me to gauge in an era of hyper-charged wizards +2-4 to cast with or without RR's being out there.. or Teclis not even needing to roll. At most I can see 160, more than that and you're really stretching the value. I worded that poorly I think.. I mean games like these are always going to be in a never-ending loop or else it dies πŸ˜…. I just have an issue with half-baked books and units being thrown out while other clearly get more attention or vastly different power levels in terms of rules.. and thats frustrating. I think perfect balance is impossible, but they can do far better. SoB was a letdown for me and so many others, especially with you all since they gouged the price so much on you all. It was the same with Gitz and BoC, even with Nurgle; all books "made with 2nd edition in mind" yet there was a noticeable power increase right after. They've shown that they can completely re-write scrolls with the Plague Monks.. so why is it so difficult to give units 3+ to hit or change\add a wording? I can't name the amount of units that would be vastly improved if they just hit on 3's and not 4's.. but I digress. I get your point with books... I was kinda suggested into 40k recently but the more I look at it and what I need to buy\remember\read up on etc has really pushed me away from it.. and I really fear for AoS going the same way eventually. Broken Realms will be the key that really shows what their plans are I think. I play a couple of other wargames (ASoIaF, Armada and Legion) so if I ever got burnt out, I have stuff to fall back on.. but AoS is always my main game and I'd hate to see them lose sight.
  11. Definitely don't go back to the old way... I think just having generate FP is okay.. maybe only from Pinks\Blues? I'm not really calling for them to be nerfed, but I don't think it would hurt a ton just having them split into 30 wounds over 50. If GW is going to gut them, that's just my most preferred way of doing it.. They'd still be a great screen and more units would be able to 1-shot them, which at 50 not a ton can if you have a CP to BS immune them. Lots of good stuff to breakdown there but I'll do it in the below response to RUNCMD's response to you. I still think Tzaangors warscroll is mostly okay, but I think the cost on them needs to come down... or literally just give them somewhere to fit in where they would be buffed like Conflag and Pyrofane do for shooting. Transient Form should be a pure Tzaangor coven, not another one for Kairics who may turn into a Tzaangor you have nearby. I'll tell you what though, if they lowered the cost and made the foot Enlightened battleline that would 100% have me sold into building into a CC based list with them. I'm (of course) going to agree\disagree with Skyfires πŸ˜‰. Yes, I do think they need a reduction.. but I don't think it's fair to compare their shooting to Flamers. They're just more of a "sniping" unit rather than "delete that entire block of 40" unit, and that's okay. For that cost you're getting something that can potentially snipe out 5-wound heroes at a 40" threat range, get +1 attack from the Agenda and clear 4+ save screens of 10-30 (depending on save) in CC. With an Exalted, 12 Flamers outside of Conflag and not getting Aura of Mutability is 660 points and can put out ~21 damage on average. 6 Skyfires with +1 attack can do ~23 and a better potential to delete that little hero giving Stormfiends RR all hits and wounds and +1 damage. LoC could definitely go down a bit more.. Kairos is objectively better in every way and only 20 more points. The reason you tend to see LoC is because GoS or Changehost requires it... and that's usually it (maybe a HA list with both since they get nudged 6" forward) I also disagree on Scribes going up.. for most people they're just a RR battery and I find a Changecaster to be a much better option to put on a BW. For sure though.. our time with it is likely soon to end. I wouldn't be surprised if it went away in the Winter FAQ honestly. This kind of thing about their speed comes up on discord often enough.. I just don't see them changing it. With trying to balance to gigantic game systems I really think they're just stuck in a neverending loop.. people always say "well at least it isn't as bad as 40k where people may only have a tome for 3 months" but I think AoS could quickly be approaching that. With these new books coming out (apparently the AoS equivalent to Psychic Awakening) then it could change things for the good or for the worse. Tomes just seem to be a mixed bag of thrown together stuff sometimes and it seems to be a pattern with certain rules writers doing better jobs than others. I never expect true balance.. but in this day and age, giving more than 3 points changes\FAQs a year is pathetic. There's no excuse for the updates to not be more frequent and include more.. for so many units, a points drop isn't enough and they need small or large tweaks to be taken.
  12. But to some extent I almost think that's okay, no? To me, Tzeentch is at it's most unique when it's playing in a control\debuff style of play.. but even then I typically find Flamer Spam to be "better" just by wiping 2-4 units off the table per turn. I think if they go too heavy handed, then there could be a major drop in players as it would lost it's uniqueness. We don't have a super strong CC setup outside of ultra-fragile Enlightened and the shooting is good in 1 particular setup (to a lesser extent, Pyrofane is decent in this regard too) but I've always felt the best lists should be all about summoning, shutting down and debuffing with the majority of damage being from spells. If any of that got tone down then I would really consider shelving them. My 6 wizard list is so strong not because of HD or Horrors, it's mostly because of Be'lakor and Kairos being able to just say "sit down" to 2 units in 1 turn.. or 2 turns for Be'lakor if they get a double.
  13. There's a reason I generally run no more than 10-20 Pinks in my lists. I'm just in favor of 1-1-1 rather than them generating FP.. I feel that even in HD they would be toned down a bit just because they would be easier to 1-shot the whole unit. With 50+ wounds as explained above, there's a lot of units that can't 1 shot them and then 1 Fold Reality later and you have problems again. Yeah, I don't think they need to get more complex.. splitting horrors as is has confused opponents into thinking you're doing some shady stuff. Ah well... we'll see what they do. The next big FAQ should be in December.. perhaps they'll do more than just another points increase. I really, really wish they would just learn to update the scrolls during these FAQ's and not force people to wait 1-2 years for their new battletomes.
  14. True, but even with Fold Reality alone you have the potential to get back 5 wounds per model restored.. and yeah, get a 1 on BS to get even more. I can see the Banner getting changed (even though all other daemons do the same thing I believe) but Fold Reality would need to be completely re-written or just not be used on Horrors which... would then make it a non-include except in Hosts Arcanum or Conflag with big units of Screamers\Flamers. A lot of lists aren't actually bringing healing or Multitudinous Host. I think a decent medium would be just make them split evenly.. the fact you have to buy 2 boxes of Blues\Brims per 1 box of Pink just sucks. That said, it would kill their some of their sales if they did that so who knows.. as it stands you want to wipe the whole unit if they have Fold Reality\-insert return slain models here- but putting them at only 30 wounds total vs 50 drastically lowers their ability to survive a lot of hammers out there while still being a reasonably good screen\wound block.
  15. I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing? I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control.
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