Jefferson Skarsnik Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 The online only mathhammerers/amateur rules lawyers pushing insane interpretations of things they haven't read properly have been having a field day (elsewhere). I kinda hoped they'd give us like one more week of childlike excitement that there were fun army lists out for all of the old favourites Anyway, I've been consulting my intellect and found that even in the optimal 13-wide formation, silver helms will only do *._23@ wounds to a T3 unit on the charge on a wet Wednesday in Stoke, so anybody who was painting a unit of those will want to immediately melt them down and reconsider their life choices 5 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonhel Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Jefferson Skarsnik said: The online only mathhammerers/amateur rules lawyers pushing insane interpretations of things they haven't read properly have been having a field day (elsewhere). I kinda hoped they'd give us like one more week of childlike excitement that there were fun army lists out for all of the old favourites Anyway, I've been consulting my intellect and found that even in the optimal 13-wide formation, silver helms will only do *._23@ wounds to a T3 unit on the charge on a wet Wednesday in Stoke, so anybody who was painting a unit of those will want to immediately melt them down and reconsider their life choices I mostly ignore those mathammer / insane waac lists as it not how I or my friends play. It's absurd how some people try to abuse every rule and min-max every possible option. For me the rules/armylists need to be a blanket which I can use to make an army how I envision it and than I want to play with it with like minded players. The goal is to have a fun and immersive evening and winning is ofcourse nice, but it's the experience that counts and imo TOW delivers 100% with this. I love all the options and flavour and it is sad that people are obsessed with finding loopholes or insane combo's just so they can win. Edited February 3 by Tonhel 4 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jefferson Skarsnik Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 I think some people just naturally have that "how can I break/optimise this" mindset and it's probably super useful in tech jobs and stuff, I just can't fathom why they want to apply it to a thematic wargame where elves fight goblins 8 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Base sizes: I've just measured all my 50 mm x 100 mm rectangular bases. They're all illegal since in reality those measue 46.5 mm x 99mm each time XD Let's just say that the base sizes are mostly irrelevant 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Grimm Posted February 3 Share Posted February 3 Guys do you think we might get some previews for next week's Pre-Orders tomorrow on the WarCom article? Also, do you think we would get the second wave of made to order or the rest of the models lines for both factions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavieth Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 16 hours ago, Tonhel said: I mostly ignore those mathammer / insane waac lists as it not how I or my friends play. It's absurd how some people try to abuse every rule and min-max every possible option. For me the rules/armylists need to be a blanket which I can use to make an army how I envision it and than I want to play with it with like minded players. The goal is to have a fun and immersive evening and winning is ofcourse nice, but it's the experience that counts and imo TOW delivers 100% with this. I love all the options and flavour and it is sad that people are obsessed with finding loopholes or insane combo's just so they can win. This, my dude. I resonate with this so much. We have a person in our group who likes to hunt for loopholes and for them they don't find the game fun to win at all costs. 3 of us have built this really fun and thematic lists for Bretonnians, High Elves and Wood Elves. We know they will never be championship winning lists, but they reflect the way we envision how the army would look on the table. Those are the most fun experiences gaming. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 It's fun because it seems that with every new system we need to rediscover that different people approach the game differently and enjoy different ways to play. Hopefully we'll also reach the usual conclusion quickly: both approaches (game as a puzzle to solve/game as a story to tell) are valid and the only condition is that you have a good honest communication with the other player/with your gaming group about what you are looking for in the specific game. 4 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beliman Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Question: Can a Dwarf character join a WarMachine and use his BS to shoot? Most of the warmachines says that "don't use the BS from the crew" and there is a little explanation about characters using their own BS when using missile weapons, but nothing about using a War Machines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 10 hours ago, Sir Grimm said: Guys do you think we might get some previews for next week's Pre-Orders tomorrow on the WarCom article? Also, do you think we would get the second wave of made to order or the rest of the models lines for both factions? I want those foot knights! They’re the only chance I might be able to kitbash half-way-good-looking Bretonnian Knights Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bolfrig Bearhide Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 1 hour ago, Beliman said: Question: Can a Dwarf character join a WarMachine and use his BS to shoot? Most of the warmachines says that "don't use the BS from the crew" and there is a little explanation about characters using their own BS when using missile weapons, but nothing about using a War Machines. Rules as written, I’m not sure as I haven’t checked. Rules as intended I would say no, as the Empire Engineer has a rule allowing a friendly warmachine in his command range to use his BS. The Dwarf Engineer allows a nearby warmachine or missile unit to re-roll 1s to hit instead. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 Conversion finished! However I think this might not fit onto a 50 mm x 100 mm base 11 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ejecutor Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 7 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: Conversion finished! However I think this might not fit onto a 50 mm x 100 mm base Wow! 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerekKruger Posted February 4 Share Posted February 4 (edited) 11 hours ago, Ejecutor said: Wow! What Ejecutor said! Brilliant work. Edited February 5 by JerekKruger Autocorrect changed Ejecutor's name 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostShark Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 That is really cool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 (edited) I played my first "proper" game this weekend (before we had only played some partial 500pts games to learn the basics). It was 1k pts of my Winterheart Wood elves vs my clumate's Dwarves, on a 48x48" board. No point in going on too long about the game itself, again we were mostly learning (very short summary in the spoiler below). What I wanted to say is that, contrary to my own fears, the game felt very smooth: we were both checking rules for the game and our armies and still finished in 90mins deployment included -granted, my opponent had WHFB experience, but I had none. The caveat is that my army had a lot of skirmishers (very AoS-y) and there were very few combats and those very simple/one sided (eagles vs cannons, my wild riders trampling a poor unit of quarrelers). There was also a second table playing Ogres vs Beastmen at 2000pts and they finished in under 3 hours, so that was reassuring as well. Mostly, it was lovely to partake in the evident happiness of my clubmates of having back the system and universe which had brought them into miniature gaming. To be clear, all of them had "moved on" and regularly played AoS, 40k, ASOIAF and whatnot but of course there was some evident sentimental attachment to Warhammer Fantasy. Now the question will be if more players who are completely new to the system/universe will join in: we are a small club so it's always a challenge for new systems to find their footing. Now for the game itself: Spoiler My opponent had very few units: 2 characters with 17 longberds, an engineer babysitting 2 cannons, 10 thunderers and 10 quarrelers. My plan going in was to send the eagles on the sides to hunt the cannons or draw fire, use my superior shooting to kill his shooting units, and never engage the longbeards block. And it kind of went like that, thanks also to a streak of 1s to wound for my opponent's cannons: I got first turn, moved forward the Eagle and the Glade Riders (GR) on the left side followed by the Wild Riders (WR). Killed 1 quarreler (Q) and then forgot the reserve move. On the other side the Waywatchers (WW) and Deepwood Rangers (DR) and the Glade Guards (GG, in my centre) killed 6 thunderers, and the Waystalker (WS) sniped their Champion. The Sisters of the Thorn (ST) moved forward, tried a fireball but failed. My opponent stayed basically still, shot the cannons hitting 2 units but rolling 1s to wound both times (sad). the quarrelers and thunderers did nothing as they were shooting at -2 or -3 (long range, skirmishers and cover on the right side). My round 2 the left side advanced again, with the eagle threatening the side of the quarrelers and the cavalry coming from the front. One quarreler died to the GR shooting. On the other side, the DR and WW killed 2 more thunderers and the WS sniped the longbeards champion. The GG shot the longbeards but did nothing. The ST inched forward staying outside the longbeards charge range, shot some javelins, did nothing, and failed the fireball. My opponent's round 2 he turned the quarrelers around to shoot the eagle, but didn't manage to kill it. Both cannons went into the eagles but incredibly whiffed again the wound roll 😮 My round 3 I charged the WR into the side of the quarrelers, wiping them in one go. The GR got closer to the longbeards and killed one, with the shooting from the right side + a fireball killing a couple more. The right side eagle got into the cannon and remained engaged at the end of the combat. My opponent's round 3 he shot the cannon into the WR in machine gun mode and wiped them (sad deer noises). Then we decided to call it, played a quick round 4 of shooting on my side killing all the remaining long beards. Of course this was our first "proper" game so it's not like I am drawing many lessons from this. Skirmishers with shooting seem amazing to deal with shooting units on the other side. On the other hand, I am kind of wary of how the Wood Elves playstyle could be not exactly fun for my opponents, so I am now building a block of Eternal Guard and more cavalary. Those crazy deer ****** were super fun. For lore reasons (my army is from Winterheart) I am staying away from Forest Spirits, but I might want to include them anyway in the future if I want to do more melee. And my list (basically, what I had already painted or at least on correct bases) Spoiler Wood Elf Realms - [1000pts] ## Main Force [1000pts] ### Characters [179pts] Shadowdancers [85pts]: • 1x Shadowdancer: Spear of Loec, Hand Weapon Waystalkers [94pts]: • 1x Waystalker: Additional Hand Weapon, Asrai Longbow, General, Swiftshiver Shards, Hand Weapon ### Core [250pts] Deepwood Scouts [75pts]: • 5x Deepwood Scout: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon Glade Guard [70pts]: • 5x Glade Guard: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon Fire and Flee Glade Riders [105pts]: • 5x Glade Rider: Asrai Longbow, Cavalry Spear, Elven Steed, Hand Weapon, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon Reserve Move ### Special [361pts] Sisters Of The Thorn [134pts]: • 1x Handmaiden of the Thorn • 1x Standard Bearer • 5x Sister Of The Thorn: Blackbriar Javelines, Hand Weapon, Steeds of Isha, Hand Weapon Wardancers [85pts]: • 5x Wardancer: Additional Hand Weapon, Hand Weapon Wild Riders [142pts]: • 1x Wild Hunter • 5x Wild Rider: Hand Weapon, Hunting Spear, Light Armour, Steeds of Kornous, Hand Weapon ### Rare [90pts] Great Eagles [60pts] Great Eagles [60pts] Waywatchers [90pts]: • 5x Waywatcher: Asrai Longbow, Hagbane Tips, Hand Weapon Edited February 5 by Marcvs 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 So, have any of you guys experimented with long line formations yet? I see people kind of losing their minds all over the internet about the rule that lets everyone in the front rank attack. But, even at a cursory glance, a long line of models just doesn't look good to me (outside of shooting units). A line of 30 models would already be unwieldy in AoS with its much more permissive movement, so I just can't imagine it in TOW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 34 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: So, have any of you guys experimented with long line formations yet? I see people kind of losing their minds all over the internet about the rule that lets everyone in the front rank attack. But, even at a cursory glance, a long line of models just doesn't look good to me (outside of shooting units). A line of 30 models would already be unwieldy in AoS with its much more permissive movement, so I just can't imagine it in TOW. Really depends if it's click bait for videos or a genuine issue, Personally, I think it's something that will come up in a couple of situations but most of the time wont happen as people won't want to play that way. Also if it starts happening at events (which is where I think a lot of the noise is coming from), event organisers would do some house ruling. If it happens at a club game, just don't play that person if they keep doing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 4 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said: Really depends if it's click bait for videos or a genuine issue, Personally, I think it's something that will come up in a couple of situations but most of the time wont happen as people won't want to play that way. Also if it starts happening at events (which is where I think a lot of the noise is coming from), event organisers would do some house ruling. If it happens at a club game, just don't play that person if they keep doing it. Something that shines through in your reply, and I think is actually what drives a lot of the wailing and gnashing of teeth online, is that many TOW players seem to dislike long line formations because they view it as off-theme (doesn't look right) or gamey. I don't personally have those hang-ups, so I mostly wonder if they are actually good from a gameplay perspective. It looks like a strategy that has plenty of counter play at first glance, but I'd like to read some first-hand experiences. Kind of don't like the impulse to not want to play with people who just do what the rules incentivize them to do, personally. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gaz Taylor Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 minute ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: Kind of don't like the impulse to not want to play with people who just do what the rules incentivize them to do, personally. I get that but at same time, it's my free time to play a game and unless we're on the same page, I'll choose how to use my free time in the future However, I do agree, it's a tactic and part of the game and personally wouldn't have an issue with it. I like to play tough competitive games. Not everybody does though, hence some of the views popping up. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Arthur Hotep Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 3 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said: I get that but at same time, it's my free time to play a game and unless we're on the same page, I'll choose how to use my free time in the future However, I do agree, it's a tactic and part of the game and personally wouldn't have an issue with it. I like to play tough competitive games. Not everybody does though, hence some of the views popping up. All that is true, of course, and I am sure you are great fun to play with IRL I think my comment was less directed at you and more at some generally unpleasant and, in my opinion, exclusionary discussion I have seen in other places. Like, a guy asking "what do I do against shooting armies?" and people responding "Just don't play with that kind of WAAC cheese-lord". Which I think definitely goes too far, especially considering TOW will be a lot of people's first WHFB game and they won't have any preconceptions of what lists are supposed to look like. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxT Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said: So, have any of you guys experimented with long line formations yet? I see people kind of losing their minds all over the internet about the rule that lets everyone in the front rank attack. But, even at a cursory glance, a long line of models just doesn't look good to me (outside of shooting units). A line of 30 models would already be unwieldy in AoS with its much more permissive movement, so I just can't imagine it in TOW. Tried it. Outside of very specific situations, it doesn’t work. It takes up multiple feet of board space, it can’t manage terrain at all, it cannot wheel worth a damn, it gets in the way of the rest of its army, it can’t defend itself against multiple chargers. It looks fantastic in 1 unit vs 1 unit mathhammer, but that’s not how armies and army construction works. If you’re daft enough to feed it one unit at a time then sure it’s effective, but it has no way of enforcing that. Much more likely is it’s lack of manoeuvre is taken advantage of and it gets multi charged to hell - where the chargers also have the advantage of ranks, multiple close order bonuses and enough numbers to prevent FBIGO too. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogregut Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 Just had a delivery of the printed legacy army lists and I'm very happy with them, much better than having to check my phone all the time! Will order the rest for sure. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Landohammer Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 We have had about 7 games so far played in my club. I have played 2. Quick thoughts: -All things considered the game actually feels quite balanced, even in PDF armies. There are definitely some problematic builds (archery spam, insane hero builds, etc) but as more games get played people are learning how to mitigate them and scores are getting closer. My second game was a tie vs Brettonia. (<100pt difference) -LOS in this game is absolutely huge. I can't stress it enough. So many instances of not being able to see something you want to shoot/charge. -Cavalry range can be crazy high. What is interesting is that if your charge target flees, you actually get to move your full charge distance. So we have had many instances of "incidentally contacting" units that were normally illegal charge targets. -We are discussing some "house rules" for our events/tournaments going forward just to make sure things stay friendly. So far we have mostly just landed on enforcing a rule of 3, and limiting units to 10 wide. We are not sure if the 10 wide stuff will be problematic yet but I see absolutely no reason why a unit would need to be MORE than 10 wide. That would be obvious abuse and would break the aesthetic. Anyway, open to more ideas. And already looking forward to playing more games! 3 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ogregut Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 I thought if you failed a charge you only move the amount you roll on the dice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted February 5 Share Posted February 5 1 hour ago, Landohammer said: -We are discussing some "house rules" for our events/tournaments going forward just to make sure things stay friendly. So far we have mostly just landed on enforcing a rule of 3, and limiting units to 10 wide. We are not sure if the 10 wide stuff will be problematic yet but I see absolutely no reason why a unit would need to be MORE than 10 wide. That would be obvious abuse and would break the aesthetic. Are you applying 'rule of three' only for otherwise unlimited stuff, or are you also applying it to units that already have discrete limits but would allow more than three? eg, if something is '2 per 1000 points' would it be limited to 3 or to 4 in your group? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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