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Sception

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Sception last won the day on October 12 2018

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  1. What about the death save, +3 move ca, and petrifex -1 rend ca?
  2. Im away from book, but my recollection is "has hekatos keyword or fully within 6" of a mortek hekatos or fully within 12" on a bonereaper hero". Just having a hekatos in the unit wasn't enough. But again, im away from book, so could be wrong.
  3. In smaller units, yeah, if you take one or nore greatblades the first should go on the champion. In larger units you might want to keep the champion in the middle of the unit inatead of the front, for the various wholly within 6" of a mortek hekatos abilities, in which case the greatblades should be on regular troopers who you can keep in front.
  4. Stalliarch flee & charge ca is for mounted models only - kavalos, liege, soulmason, arkhan, nagash. Doesn't work for zandtos because he has the pretorian keyword. The run & charge legion trait works for anyone except the pretorian named characters.
  5. Reasons to field them: better than spears, helps narrow the gap between spears and swords. Fractionally better than swords without the nadirite buff spell, which won't be up on all your units all the time Look cool, if you think they look cool Reasons not to field them: Have to roll their attacks separately, which is a hassle Look bad, if you think they look bad Only comfortably fit on one of the unit's bodies, resulting in either awkward assembly or a chorus line effect in your front rank if you field multiples. Honestly, the arm fit for morteks is kind of bad in general.
  6. It loses some value, but not as much as you might (or I did) think. Battalion ability has limited range from the hero, only applies to the two units in the battalion. A cav army is going to run more than the 2 kavalos units in the lance, but isnt going to run two lances, because you won't want two lieges. Stalliarch lets you retreat & charge with units outside of the lance, or lance units not in range of the liege, while the battalion lets you retreat and charge with lance units in ramge of the hero without spending rd points. Compare to shield corps. Everyone likes that battalion and it just lets one unit a turn do something they could have done anyway, just without spending a point. Same deal. While the lance is still good for staliarchs, and staliarchs will definitely want to run it, I don't deny that it does more for other legions, and that doesn't feel right. But the combination is still good. While I won't defend their command trait or artifact, the legion trait and command ability really are quite good, and they're good in ways that meaningfully change how the army builds and plays, which is what subfaction rules should do.
  7. This is pretty much the way to go. Play what you want, and give your opponents time to adjust before making changes to your own list, just be open to making changes of your own if your scene isn't able to react. Personally I lean towards starting with softballs and 'growing the beard out' as appropriate, but that's easy for me to say as the options I most like in the army aren't the obvious strong ones anyway. When I list things that might be problems for fun, I don't mean that they definitely will be. IME most players know it's important to have some rend and some mortal output, know 5 wound heroes are vulnerable to sniping and either look for ways to protect them or don't hang their entire game plans on them, know they need to have some anti-magic game, know they need tools to target your own heroes, etc. Granted, some armies don't have a lot of options in these areas, but for the most part I don't think even petrifex should be a huge problem past the shock to the system of a death army with some actual armor saves. We don't have any of the major system tilting effects that characterize the most broken aos2 factions to date - no summoning, no out of sequence combat attacks, etc. Yeah, this is a big part of the problem with petrifex. Not only are they obviously stronger than the rest, they're obviously stronger in the generic ways that the army is already strong, so they're basically the best for any build. Stalliarch pushes you towards cavalry lists specifically, Crematorians infantry spam & recursion, Pretorians really want you to field their named heroes, Null... well, the Myriad doesn't really encourage particular builds either, personally I'd rather their CA was something unrelated to their anti-magic trait, something that wouldn't be so heavily tilted against caster-blaster armies, would matter a bit more vs. other armies, and could give them a mechanical push towards a more thematically focused build. Probably something caster related. Meanwhile Petrifex might be fixed if you swapped their abilities around a bit. CA at the start of any phase for +1 armor save for that phase only, trait that gives them +1 rend on unmodified six to wound? Same flavor, but significantly cut back. but that's spiraling off into wish listing and home brewing, which is another thread.
  8. Pretty much this. If you think they look cooler, then maybe run one per unit - whether those are units of 3 or 6 or whatever, as a neat looking squad leader. If you don't happen to think they look way cooler than the 4swords, then definitely don't build them, as they're sadly a case where the weapon 'upgrade' is actually a downgrade, especially in the precision stance which is what they'll almost always be using.
  9. Rule of Cool, yes. By the math, no. Unfortunately a case where a weapon 'upgrade' is actually a downgrade.
  10. The other legions are not "all bad or boring". Stalliarch Lords and Crematorians at least have fun & effective rules. And Null Myriad aren't bad in a magic heavy meta, though admittedly they do have 'fun' issues due to their abilities being too effective against particular builds and largely irrelevant against others. Mortis Praetorian special character command abilities would largely make up for their lacking legion traits were it not for Petrifex obsoleting the boost from Katakros. Ivory Host is kinda bad, sure, but the biggest problem with the OBR subfactions isn't most of them being weak, its one of them being too strong. If you flat out removed petrifex and Ivory Host, the OBR book would be getting praise for having some of the best subfaction balance out of AoS 2e books so far. Granted that's kind of a low bar, but still. 4 is honestly enough subfactions, anyway, nobody would have even noticed the two missing if they had never been there in the first place. In terms of the army being 'unfun' to play against, that's not the same as being 'unfair' or 'unbalanced'. The crawler isn't at all overpowered for its points cost, but what it does do is remove 5 wound heroes, the lynchpin of the majority of armies out there, outright, from a distance, with little they can do to stop it since even a single failed save kills the entire unit. Even worse for the cursed stele that removes models without saves at all. Again, I'm not saying that's unbalanced, but it is a feel bad moment when it happens. That the catapults can also wipe out swaths of chaffy troops, either based on the bravery attack or just getting multiple 5 wound shots a turn through poor-to-no save units. There are armies that will just roll over to catapult spam, and the fact that there are even more armies that will shrug them off and steam roll them doesn't make the games on either extreme any more fun. The other thing that can be unfun is an army that feels impossible to hurt, taking very little damage and healing up whatever manages to get through. Armies full of 2+ and 3+ rerollable armor save troops can be just frustrating to play against for enemies without a lot of rend, even if their points costs are high enough to be fair. Another thing that really hurts fun is taking a player's command points. Generally your coolest abilities are activated via command points, and most armies get so few of them already. So if you're playing OBR in a casual beer & pretzels setting and you're concerned about opponents who don't optimize their lists having fun, then don't play petrifex, don't spam crawlers, and save katakros for special occasion big games.
  11. Stalkers are more efficient, largely because they have a more narrow role - melee offense, with a bit of speed and terrain circumvention to help target that offense. Their multiple forms implies they have multiple roles, but nope, not really, and even the forms are a bit of an illusion with one of them far better than two of the others at the same jobs those other two pretend to do. Immortis have two jobs - melee offense (slightly tankier variant, but melee offense all the same), combined with taking wounds for heroes. Like many units that can do two different things, they pay for that privilege by being less efficient for the points than units that do just one thing, and that reduced efficiency does hurt. If you're just using them to beat on things then stalkers are pretty much always better. And while the hero protecting thing seems really nice in an army that, like most death armies (really most AoS armies in general), is pretty dependant on support heroes to function, the fact that they're not super points efficient means that they aren't exactly amazing at that job either. Is it really helping your army all that much to transfer wounds from a 130 point boneshaper to a 200 point unit of immortis? You could have had a whole second boneshaper instead, with 70 points to spare. I'm not saying immortis are bad. After all, 200 points of immortis has 12 wounds where a second boneshaper only adds 5, and if you cluster your support heroes together the same immortis block can cover for multiples at once. And if you don't need that protection, well, they aren't as good in melee as stalkers, but they aren't bad at it either. And if you're really trying to be as competitive as possible, I'm not sure even stalkers are worth taking. I mean, yeah, they're killy, but so are mortek guard and kavalos deathriders, and you have to take some of those to fill battleline requirements, so if you're trying to maximize efficiency you're probably better off taking that same 200 points you would have spent on stalkers and instead spending it on better supporting the battleline you're already taking, with maybe a liege or a harvester or just plain old more battleline. At least the immortis's bodyguard role, while perhaps a bit points inefficient by comparison, isn't something the battleline units you have to take anyway already have covered. Which I suppose doesn't really help your consideration of which to build. The main thing I'd say is they're both perfectly decent, and while stalkers might have a slight edge in points efficiency, if you were really all that worried about points efficiency you probably wouldn't be fielding either. So instead just build the one you think looks cooler, or sounds cooler narratively. Read their lore descriptions in the book and see which jumps out at you. Look at what the various battalions they're a part of do and decide if any of those sound like fun. Personally, I assembled my first three as immortis, because I like the look of them better, and because a ceremonial bodyguard type unit makes narrative sense to me in the Null Myriad, my favorite legion, based on their silent, eerie disposition and their arcane flavor that supports fielding multiple fragile casters, including Arkhan himself. My next three, once I get around to them, will also be immortis, for their formation, and if I get any after that it will be stalkers, because pretty much all the units in the army are at least playable - a big step up for GW in terms of internal book balance - and that really rewards a 'some of everything' attitude towards collecting a bonereaper army.
  12. Two is A LOT for a list at that points range. Not unplayable, you'll win some games, but "well balanced" and "40% of my army in two artillery pieces" aren't sentiments that really go together, unfortunately. Because the fundamentals of that list are so skewed, you're going to run into a lot of binary games - either your opponents can easily deal with the catapults and you just lose, or they can't and you just win. There will still be fun games that fall inbetween, but maybe not as many as you might like. Frankly, if you're looking for "well balanced", you might want to limit the 200 point artillery pieces to no more than 1/1000 points. That said, it's not entirely unworkable. Here's a crack at a 1250 point list: You've got some infantry, your catapults, a couple leaders. That's about all you're realistically going to be able to fit. Might run the infantry as 1x20, 2x10 instead to spread them out over the board more, but that's less efficient for buffs, and you'll be a bit shy on RD points, so I like the 2x20 personally. Especially if you play games of this point size on a 4x4 table instead of a 4x6. Regardless, it's a playable starting list, about as well balanced as you could ask with the starting conditions, and can grow progressively more balanced if you increase it towards 2000 points later on. That might look something like: That looks a lot more 'well balanced' to me, and uses everything from the first list so nothing you get in the short term would go to waste in the long term. It also has 200 points left over, a magic number that you could spend on any number of things, including: another support caster plus another endless spell increasing one of the mortek units to 40 3 immortis, to protect your support heroes from enemy artillery, and as an extra melee element in games where that isn't necessary 5 kavalos to have a faster assault element to hassle enemy ranged units or go after unattended objectives 3 stalkers for a slightly less faster, slightly more assaultier element that can also hop over blocking terrain a harvester even a third crawler, though again one per thousand points is already as many as a 'well balanced' list wants to run
  13. IMO catapults are less about average damage and more about the threat of removing 5 wound support heroes from behind enemy lines with a single failed save.
  14. It's actually an extra 3, since you get one for having a battalion and get a free shield wall in both players combat phases for effectively two more per battle round. So its even better than you say, and I *still* don't think it's worth sacrificing bodies for in a list that is already shy of bodies given how objective based this game is. Again, maybe drop one or both a crawlers for it. A pair of them is probably too greedy in a list that's already paying 500 points for a single hero. But as is you're already looking at only marginally better than Nagash levels of board presence in a list that doesn't have a Nagash to show for it, so I'd be strongly disinclined to go smaller there. If you think units of 10 are fine, maybe split one of the 20 man squads into 2x10. I could see 2x20 & 2x10 being better than 3x20. But dropping nodels outright feels like the wrong move. You are right that RD could be better though, that is fair. At the very least, one of the casters should be taking the discipline spell instead of one of the buffs. Probably instead of the weapon buff. Giving d3 units +1 attack or -1 rend or reroll saves or +3 move as needed is better than giving one unit exploding 5s.
  15. My list? If so, I disagree. 3x20 morteks with no other units besides characters and artillery is already few enough bodies that the list will have trouble with the objective game. Swap Katakros for a Liege and I'd agree, 100ish points for one of those battalions would probably be worth it, but with fully a quarter of your list in a single character and nothing else in the army cheap & efficient enough to buy you some slack, I just don't think you have the space. And it's not like these units need those battalions to function. Shield Corps and Ballistari are good, but they don't drastically change or improve how their units function on the table the way the Aegis Immortal or Kavalos Lance do. And while fewer deployment drops is nice, taking one of those formations still won't get the list low enough to reliably choose who goes first or second, and even if they did the list is actually pretty ok either way. If they make you go first, you get your buffs and first round of catapult shots off. If they make you go second they're still probably not doing all that much damage to you and you'll get to heal right after and maybe take the double turn. Basically, while those two battalions are good, they're expendible, and there just isn't room for them with Katakros there imo. That you'd even have to drop infantry in a list already lowballing its board presence is proof of that. Heck, I've been playing around with nagash lists that run as many bodies as that. If you're dropping anything, it should maybe be one or both of the crawlers, in order to pick up more infantry, not less - though if you do that then taking the shield corps does become a reasonable idea in that case, though even there you might be better with just more models, as again the shield corps, while good, isn't necessary for the units in it to work. Mostly it gets you a few extra RD points a round between its ability and just being a battalion, but with Katakros and a couple support heroes you aren't exactly hurting for discipline as is. ... Per the other question, whether it's worth spending the rd point for +1 attack on the crawlers, it is in two cases - first is if you're just not in melee yet, in which case an extra shot from a crawler may be worth more than other uses of the discipline depending on your list, opponent, & so on. Second is if there's a target that you can't reach with your melee units that simply must be dealt with, a critical buff hero or the like, where every extra shot is an extra chance for them to fail their armor save and just get removed outright. It's a nice option to be able to throw onto the crawlers, but not critical to how they work. I wouldn't consider a liege of any sort to be a 'must have' unit when running crawlers or vice versa.
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