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Sception

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Sception last won the day on October 12 2018

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888 Celestant-Prime

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  1. This look like FEC to anyone else? https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/05/05/the-rumour-engine-may-5th-2020/
  2. Oh, you're not wrong. Mannfred and neferata are both vampires, and they will both almost certainly end up together in an eventual soulblight battletome. And who knows, it might not even be bad. The Ossiarchs book included both Katakros and Arkhan, and Nagash for that matter, while still maintaining a distinct tone and character. But the Ossiarch book did that by focusing strictly on Katakros as the representative face of the faction. Arkhan's just kind of there. IMO soulblight could work with both Mannfred and Neferata if it followed the same mold, focusing strictly on Neferata with Mannfred just sort of also there. But if they try and split the thematic focus of a soulblight book equally between them, then imo neither will end up getting the attention they deserve, and the overall faction will end up lacking cohesion. As for FEC not being diverse enough to work as a stand alone army... I agree with that notion. However, in terms of theme and character I do think there's enough there to work with. Expand them out a bit, add in bats and wolves, intruduce maybe one or two more units, a plastic varghulf, maybe a dedicated caster 'court wizard' type character, a couple named heroes including the Carrion King as a faction head poster child, and it could work fine, imo. The narrative meat is there, it just needs the model range. For soulblight, the problem I have with vampires as heroes in an army of skeletons and zombies is the same problem I've always had with that concept. Vampires entire narrative hook is that they need to feed on the living to survive. Vampire heroes who spend all their time leading armies of bloodless walking bone piles don't make much narrative sense, imo. I think there's narrative room for a mortal faction in grand alliance death, human - maybe some other races, maybe halflings? - societies of shyish worshipping Nagash and rules by vampire aristocracy who both defend them from the marauding forces of chaos and, as favored servants of nagash, are able to negotiate favorable tithing terms with neighboring Ossiarch empires. So vampire heroes, yeah, elite vampire knights sure, just like now, but with the more common troops filled out by mortal levies defending their homes and their undead lords and ladies, plus maybe some fanatics/berserker types hoping to earn a place among that nobility through valor in battle. Could have an interesting inversion of the normal undead rules in that instead of your heroes healing your units you could have them feeding on your units to heal themselves. Give their outfits and heraldtry a slightly Egyptian, slightly deathlordy character, center the lore and flavor on Neferata, maybe add some sneaky rules to represent networks of vampyric spies and infiltrators. Conceptually and narratively I think that could really work quite well. I don't exactly expect it to look exactly like that when a soulblight book does happen, though. Non-undead death units might be a too far-out-there as a concept for GW, But imo it certainly /could/ work.
  3. Any splintering away from nagash is simply not going to happen. Nagash IS the death alliance, other key figures can plot against him, but they can't actually break from him, and if they did then you'd basically have to move them to another alliance. What, are you going to make soulblight an order army? FEC destruction? Death is an underpopulated alliance already. Plus, lore wise, it's well established that the mortarchs /cant/ oppose Nagash directly. Scheme to undermine him sure, but not defy him directly. That's half the point of mortarchs, to put the forces of death under leaders that nagash can leave to their own devices without worrying that they'll turn against him. Also, why Mannfred AND Neferata? They hate each other almost more than they hate Nagash? Honestly, from a faction aesthetic and narrative perspective, I stand by my position that vampires as a concept and the Soulblight faction in particular is nowhere near as large or conceptually diverse as it needs to be to justify two mortarchs. That's the big reason I'd personally like to see Mannfred somehow merged with the Carrion King and moved over to FEC (though I don't think that's any more likely than Mannfred or Neferata breaking with Nagash). Two soulblight mortarchs is already one mortarch too many. They're redundant. Ideally one should be pushed somewhere else, and if you're only keeping one then Neferata's a much better paragon of what the Soulblight are and what they represent in AoS. Mannfred's low, bestial cunning, lack of courtly refinement, and preference for brute intimidation over subtle diplomacy are out of place with the Soulblight's role as rulers of Shyish's mortal populations and infiltrators into the high societies of the Order factions. What Soulblight are in AoS is exemplified by Neferata. The things Mannfred does, the terror tactics, the skulking in the shadows, the preference for undead beasts and monsters over ordered regiments, even the melancholy obsessions with and hallucinations of the old world - that's all FEC stuff. It's not for nothing that I think Mannfred is a better fit for the abhorrents.
  4. It's not going away any time soon, but I wouldn't count on it staying indefinitely.
  5. preview's up for the Tithe Legion in the next white dwarf, available for download purchase May 2nd. From the name, I had been hoping for something like the Legion of Grief, combining the new faction range with the existing undead line in a new 'Legion of Nagash' style list. I had especially hoped for this since the Ossiarchs as written, despite being the new face of the Death Alliance, are mechanically almost completely segregated from the other Death factions, with no options for even allies, despite the most exciting recent lore progression for the undead in AoS heavily features an allied force of Katakros's Ossiarchs and Olynder's Nighthaunts - an alliance that's impossible in game without resorting to a generic Death Allegiance army, and with how much Ossiarchs and Nightnaunts both rely on faction rules to function that sort of implementation doesn't really work. Unfortunately, that's not what we're getting. Instead we're getting something more like the Emerald Host rules from December, which were ironically an expansion for the Legion of Grief. IE, we're getting some lore that adds additional character to the overall faction by focusing on one particular army within it, in this case Vokmortian's forces, with extra rules limited to a few battalions. Compared to the new legion allegiance I was hoping for that's a bit of a let down, and in particular I'm not sure there's much potential for Battalions to add much to the Ossiarch army given that Bonereaper points are already so tight that even the already-pretty-good battalions in the battle tome are difficult to justify. Unless the Tithe Legion brings some sort of large, versatile battalion which could reasonably serve as a single drop stand alone army, something that seems rather unlikely to me - I doubt it will change the competitive picture for bonereapers much. Especially since at least one of these new battalions will probably require Vokmortian, who is somewhat underwhelming on his own, so a battalion would have to do a lot, while remaining very points efficient, to make him worth running in standard game sizes. Eh, we'll see. Lore at least should be interesting, and as a brand new faction the Bonereapers need all the new lore they can get.
  6. what preview for white dwarf next month?
  7. That's definitely a Mortisan glyph on a big, slashy weapon, so yeah, a named soulreaper leading an underworlds team seems like a very likely guess. Even if it's not a Soulreaper, an underworlds box still seems like the safest bet. I can't imagine they'd just be adding new units to the AoS faction proper already. And if they were, then I'd expect the already name-dropped 'Liege Moretek' before another Mortisan. Still, underworlds teams sometimes have decent rules in AoS, I recall the nighthaunt team being somewhat decent for a caster with a retinue. Maybe we'll get something similar here. If that mortisan comes with a casting bonus that doesn't rely on artefact slots, then that could be a pretty big deal. Exciting to see some new models already, regardless.
  8. People are bringinv katakros. People are fielding arkhan, but he's fragile enough for the points that maybe they kind of shouldn't. Liege is popular, especially if you dont take katakros. Boneshaper is good. Morteks are great. Harvester is solid mortek support. Katapults arent the best raw damage ouput, but the versatility & range makes them good and popular regardless. Stalkers have great damage output. Cavalry are nice for the speed. Nagash is still strong and popular, but takes up so much space that fielding him means running 'a nagash army' rather than 'a bonereaper army'. List building is still a struggle between fitting enough morteks to occupy table space & survive enemy offence, fitting enough heroes and maybe a formation or two to have the relentless discipline points to fuel your army (morteks in particular are the backbone of the faction, but are extremely RD hungry), and fitting in specialist units like catapults, stalkers, cavalry, and harvesters for versatility & added defense & damage output. At 2k points its extremely difficult to do all three of those things at the same time, and the difficulty doing all three, combined with the factions lack of truely gamebreaking gimmicks like summoning, teleportation / deep strike deployment, out of sequence combat attacks, one drop army battalions, piles of mortal wounds, army-killing ranged output, or the like means that while the faction's been strong & popular, it hasn't been overwhelming like ghouls or slaanesh were in their heyday or like tzeentch is right now. Especially as the bonereapers have a number of fairly exploitable weaknesses, including vulnerability to mortal wound spam, fairly easy to work out target priorities, weak magic both offensively and defensively due to lack of casting & dispel bonuses (unless you're running nagash - who again is practically an army in himself - or arkhan who is super vulnerable for the points). That on top of low speed and low numbers - both in body and unit counts - and a reliance on RD points that can easily run out if the opponent engages you on multiple fronts. Plus the army is very weak to all those game-dominating gimmicks they don't have. Out of sequence combat rounds tend to bypass mortek's shield wall. Ranged spam also bypasses shield wall & picks through support characters easily. Strong magic bonuses severly impact the utility and efficiency of support casters that we often have to field anyway for RD points. Summoning/deep striking/teleporting can quickly box us in, forcing heavy RD expenditure while denying access to objectives. Basically all the rule-bending tools that make the strongest armies so oppressive work rather well on us. We're very effective as long as the opponent is playing 'by the rules', but as soon as their special rules start letting them act outside of the box, OBR can struggle to adapt. That makes bonereapers an army that is super strong against the factions that are already kind of weak, but kind of weak against the factions that are already super strong. Tzeentch in particular is looking to be something of an uphill climb.
  9. The harvester is amazing, both model wise and rules wise, but no, I don't think I'd recommend it for a Nagash list specifically. At least, not at 2000 points. 2500 points maybe, 3000 points very likely, but 2k points you'll struggle just to fit nagash and enough skeletons to really make the harvester worthwhile supporting them, and you'll still want an extra support hero or two for the RD points. As for katakros + arkhan, it can work, though it's again a lot of points and restricts the rest of your list. And arkhan is particularly vulnerable to shooting, which can be a problem if tzeentch starts running roughshod through your local meta. Check out the podcast 'Just Saying', one of the more tournament-experienced regulars on the forum is a co-host of it, and they had a recent episode where they talked about OBR list construction. I don't necessarily agree with everything they say - they don't seem to rate any of the formations in that none of them came up, where I think Shield Corp in particular is worth it for the RD efficiency and extra artefact, they don't rate masons due to the lack of casting bonuses, but if you take a formation than one of their artefacts can provide just such a bonus, etc. But then again, they're a lot more experienced than I am so they're probably more right than I am wherever we disagree, and they make a lot of good points otherwise. The episode specifically doesn't go much into nagash list construction, not calling him bad, just saying a 'nagash list' is a very different beast from a 'bonereaper list' otherwise, but a lot of the general list building thought process feels very informative.
  10. Nagash is ok but very skew. You basically end up with a 'nagash' list instead of a 'bonereapers' list, and the resulting list is very swingy - if the opponent's army can't deal with nagash you do well and if they can you don't, and that can lead to some feelbads if the player feels, rightly or not, that there was nothing they could do about this giant model dominating the table. A lot of times even opponents who can't directly fight nagash can still win games against him by focusing on the objectives, but that doesn't necessarily feel like playing the game. That sounds more negative than I intend. Nagash is cool, and playable, and most of the time it'll be fine. It does heavily restrict your remaining points, so be sure to grab as many morteks as you can with your leftover points, and a couple support characters so you have at least a few relentless discipline points to work with.
  11. While waiting on the experts, my highly uninformed advice would be to give up on magic unless you're running nagash. Arkhan is too vulnerable to tzeentch shooting, our other casters lack the casting bonuses to push spells past tzeentch's arcane dominance. Focus instead on relentless discipline buffs and other bonuses that the other side can't just unbind. Basically liege & shaper > mason & reaper. Beyond that, be sure to take enough skeletons to weather enemy shooting, & strongly consider one or more harvesters, as they can mitigate damag from shooting & spells regardless of rend, mortals, etc. Again, though, that's just surface level thoughts without any actual experience to back it up.
  12. It probably wouldn't be too difficult to convert, though you'll need some greenstuff to fill gaps, and you'd likely need to pin some wire from the legs through the hooves into the base, as othewise those are some pretty tiny joins to be supporting the model. If you're greenstuffing anyway, you might try just shaving down the knuckles a bit and sculpting some hooves around the feet.
  13. If the thing you like more about Zandtos is the rearing mount pose, you should know that you can use zandtos's horse legs and still use either rider & horse head parts. Here's my own liege kavalos from earlier in the thread: .... As for game rules - the generic liege kavalos can be any legion, and as such it can benefit from legion bonuses, including those of the mighty petrifex elite. As a generic hero, you can also give it whatever relic you like, which will typically be the required relic of your legion. These are mostly either defensive artifacts that help keep this important support piece on the table, or else they're weapon artefacts that the liege kavalos can make much better use of than any of your other heroes. By comparison Zandtos is locked into the Praetorians. You can *field* him in any legion, but he'll only gain legion benefits in a praetorian army. He also has a fancy command ability, but it also only works for Praetorian units, so while he can use it on himself in any army, he can only use it on more threatening units if you're playing praetorians. Instead of being able to assign him any artefact, he comes with a fancy lance, but the fancy lance isn't very impressive. A petrifex liege with the godbone armor is dramatically more resilient than zandtos, while a null myriad liege with their artefact sword is a lot more personally threatening. Otherwise Zandtos is the same as a generic liege - same +1 attack command ability, same stats - but costs more points. .. So, yeah. Unless you're playing Mortis Praetoreans, Zandtos is a liege kavalos that is worse but costs more. And he can make your other heroes worse, too, since you might end up having to give a faction artefact to a mortisan that would much rather have a generic artefact to boost their casting ability. If you are playing Mortis Praetoreans then Zandtos is more interesting, especially if you're playing against a chaos army, thanks to his unique command ability, but even then I wouldn't say he's objectively better than the generic version due to the whole pushing the faction artefact onto a mortisan issue. He's definitely not bad, though, even outside of praetoreans. If you like him, you can run him in casual games. It's just that the generic version is basically just the same but better.
  14. Imo, given how overpriced most of the units feel in other legions, petrifex may be the *only* fair way to play bonereapers. That said, warhammer undead have always had a problem with feelbads / negative play experiences at the table, largely due to the summoning/recursion gimmick. Even when points costs and rules balance have adequately accounted for it, opponents still feel bad when they wipe out a bunch of models only to see them all return to the table in your next magic phase. OBR don't restore as many models at a time, but they're much tougher to begin with, which is it's own brand of frustrating that makes the handful of models you do restore all the more frustrating. And then there's the Catapult, with its ability to readily snipe support heroes from behind enemy lines, and even pick out individual models which can cause a lot of heartache for people who string out their units. Now, the obvious answer there is *don't* string out your units when facing it, but the feelbads persist even after they've adjusted their tactics to avoid the danger. This isn't an exclusive obr problem, people have been complaining about shooting in AoS since AoS was released, but it is one more complaint layered on top of the other. Again, none of that is unfair. OBR are expensive, their offense isn't great for their points outside of stalkers, their defense is also pretty lackluster for the points outside of morteks, and their numbers overall are very limited, both in model and unit count, which makes capturing and holding objectives quite difficult. It's really only the petrifex rules that raise the army up to being at all threatening. Don't bet me wrong, *with* petrifex the army *is* threatening, but nowhere near the kind of broken that Flesh Eaters or Slaanesh were in their day or that Tzeentch is right now. OBR are tough, and hurty, but they don't have the kind of teleportation or summoning or out-of-sequence-attacking or option-limiting type shenanigans that really twist the game. That said, there are other factions that do struggle against OBR, factions that are a lot worse off or that have a hard time hurting us at all due to relative lack of rend & mortals, or that rely on fragile, short range support heroes that get easily sniped off the board by any shooting at all. And even for stronger factions, there are players who have difficulty adapting to fight us due to limited collections, lack of money & time to buy & paint new units, narrative investment in running the less good parts of their factions, or just lack of interest in developing list building & tabletop game skill. That's not a knock on anyone, this hobby is multifaceted and people whose interest leans harder on the narrative & painting end of things aren't "doing it wrong". Honestly, the amount of hassle and cost involved in keeping up with the shifting competitive meta means they're probably the smart ones. Point is, while Petrifex OBR are far from broken in the competitive sense, it's entirely possible that your personal pool of opponents might have a lot of trouble dealing with the army, in which case you might be better served by switching to one of the other legions in order to give them more of a fighting chance. That said, the gap between petrifex and non-petrifex is so wide that you could go from them having a bad and frustrating time playing against your army to the complete reverse.
  15. Not completely, but riders and harvester are definitely runnable, as is kayakros, and that's already significantly more practical variety in terms of tools to work with than most starting AoS factions got in their initial releases. It would help if the subfaction rules were more varried and more balanced, but even so. And I'm sure we'll eventually be seeing more bonereaper units in the future. Some have already been named even (eg liege mortek).
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