JerekKruger

I think that's an exaggeration. You need to be careful when doing it yes, but I think it can be useful. Special units are meant to be rarer, but I don't think that means they are meant to be better value points wise. Generally they bring something a bit more interesting to the table over Core units, which in the case of Black Orcs is definitely the case (Quell Animosity is amazing). Character tax is only really a tax if you don't want the character is your army. Black Orcs don't really fall into that category, they are excellent. Other than being short on points, I can't see a situation where you'd rather take a ordinary Orc War/Big-boss over a Black Orc one. Personally I think fitting two units of Black Orcs into an army is very doable, unless you are specifically going for a theme where Black of Characters aren't welcome. All good points (other than M 3: I definitely think it's a very big deal, just as I think Bestigors getting M 5 is a huge bonus). Meh. Paying points for +1 Strength and Armour Bane (1), but losing the ability to use a Shield whilst doing so doesn't seem worth it. Plus let's be honest, even with their stats, 7 attacks (assuming a front row of 6 and a champ) at WS 5, S 5, AP -1 and Armour Bane (1) is not going to do that much. Expected damage of 3 and a bit assuming hitting on 3s, wounding on 2s and the enemy having a 5+ save (if the enemy has T 4 or a better save that rapidly diminishes). You really need volume of attacks to make doing damage a viable way of winning combat. I guess. They just don't feel like a unit I'd want to take in their current form. If I want less elite infantry than Chosen I think I'd go for Marauders over Chaos Warriors, and then both Marauder Horsemen and Warhounds are more appealing from the point of view of filling my core "tax".

I've been comparing WoC units to other factions, and I'm getting the distinct feeling that Chaos Warriors need a buff. The most notable comparison is with Black Orcs, who are a point cheaper per model whilst coming with Full plate as standard, Furious Charge (getting Charges off might be hard, but this is big if you can), Choppas (better than Ensorcelled Weapons on the Charge, and better when using non-hand weapons) and Motley Crew (making it far easier to mix resilience with offensive output). Bestigors are the same points as Chaos Warriors, and as long as their Champion is alive they only trade a point of Weapon Skill for a point of Movement (worth it imho). They come with Great Weapons as standard. Finally, Warband, Primal Fury and Blood Rage all combine for some nice offensive buffs. Dwarfs have a number of veteran options which make for good comparisons with Chaos Warriors, but I'll focus on Longbeards as the least specialised of these (Ironbreakers are more of an anvil unit, and Hammers are more of a fighty unit). Longbeards lose a point of Movement and two points of Initiative in exchange for a point of Leadership, all for one point less than Chaos Warriors. Gromril Weapons are similar to Ensorcelled Weapons, and Veteran is similar to the Mark of Chaos Undivided, but they get Shieldwall and Venerable, and one unit can gain Drilled. Finally, they have a smaller base size. There are other comparisons that can be made, but generally speaking it just feels like Chaos Warriors are a bit lacking when compared to similar units in other armies. It's hard to make them offensively effective without either giving them Frenzy, or severely hurting their defense, but for their price their defense is not that amazing either. Personally I think I'd make the following changes to them: Give them the option for Full Plate. Seriously, look at them, how are they not wearing Full Plate. Yes, this steps on the toes of Chosen, but Chosen get their 6+ Ward as well, so I think Full Plate is fine for Chaos Warriors. This also allows them to be very good in an anvil role (3+ save is no joke), or be more offensive without being too fragile. Make them a point cheaper (12 points per model base). I think these two would make them more competitive with other factions elite infantry. Thoughts?

Is this 100% confirmed to be the new ones? If so I might have to grab a copy of I can add they are lovely minis.

That's a possibility. Chariots have the unique property of being the only troop type immune to both Killing Blow and Monster Slaying, so make pretty decent mounts for independent characters. I definitely plan to do this for the 40k Juggernaut (with a non-SM mount), as impact hits make so much sense for it.

I think they had a certain elegance to them that matched the art from the time. Like you could imagine them dancing up to a unit of Empire state troops, being vaguely alluring enough to cause hesitation, then in sudden, elegant bursts of artistic violence murdering the distracted troops. The current (and previous) Daemonettes never captured that fur me: they just look horrific (not badly sculpted, horrific in the sense of causing horror). The level of sculpting was also simply excellent by the standards of the time. Like the impression of ribs were just visible on they're chests. By modern standards that's pretty achievable, but remember Diaz was literally sculpting in greenstuff so what he was able to achieve at that scale was pretty amazing. That said it is, ultimately, subjective. You're not wrong for not thinking they're excellent 🙂

Oh yeah, from a purely gameplay perspective I think that's right. But I want to create me own homebrew Archaon leading his own homebrew Swords of Chaos 🙁

If they channeled the spirit of Juan Diaz' metal daemonettes (minus the nudity, since I don't think GW would get away with that) in a modern plastic kit I'd buy... all of them?

What are people's thoughts on the Daemonic Mount? I absolutely love the AoS lord on Daemonic Mount mini, and to me Daemonic Mounts are the quintessential Chaos Mount. Something about the fact that it's an actual Daemon, likely gifted by the Chaos Gods to their mortal Champion, or perhaps won in a battle of wills, just feels narratively right. Plus let's be honest, we all kinda want our Chaos Lord to be this guy But GW have made it hard to love them. The first issue is that during them in a 40x60mm base is a squeeze. It can be done, but they do look a little cramped. 50x75mm is fine, but then they don't rank up nicely with knights, and that upsets my sense of aesthetics. Adding to that is that in the latest FAQs Chaos Steeds were given First Charge, allowing a unit of Chaos Knights lead by a character on one to use the ability. Daemonic Mounts do not have that rule, which makes them much less appealing in that role. You also lose Barding, meaning your Chaos Lord can't (easily) reach a 2+ Save. In exchange what do you get? A significantly better attack profile (WS 4 vs. 3, S 5 vs. 4, 2 attacks, Armour Bane 1, Magical Attacks and 1 Stomp Attack), one extra Move (useless in the leading Chaos Knights role), and an extra wound. To me it just feels like Chaos Steeds are the better option in most cases, at least for Lords. I could perhaps see Sorcerer Lords benefiting from a Daemonic Mount, but if I had the points I'd probably prefer a Manticore for flying.

Yeah, I think size wise he's fine compared to infantry etc., it's just that if you have him in the same army as things like Ogroid Theridons (representing Chaos Ogres or Minotaurs or whatever) I feel like he might not feel gigantic enough. The same is obviously true of the metal giant when compared to, for example, Rockgut Troggoths in O&G.

If I was the head of AoS I'd be incredibly keen to see the old Skaven minis officially return to TOW, knowing that a lot of people will but new AoS sculpts and boost my team's sales.

Yup. They aren't going to rush messing up the story that established AoS.

Completely unrelated to the Darkoath box: thoughts on using the Fomoroid Crusher as a Chaos Giant? Is he big enough? I get the feeling he's similar size to the 6th edition metal O&G giant, but the question then becomes "is that really big enough" in today's world of much larger GW minis.

Yeah that's my concern. I'm just not sure they'll look that good ranked up. To be honest I'm not sure they look that good even in AoS: they're maybe a but too over the top. Huh, I assumed Marauder Horsemen would be on 25x50mm bases. Tell be absolutely fine on 30x60mm. Assuming the Marauder Horsemen are on the same size bases as Freeguild Cavaliers (which seems likely), is day he's on a 60mm round base. Might be a tight squeeze, but I reckon he'll probably go on a 50mm square. That's also true though. Nice idea. Huh, I assumed all Chaos Champions came with Full Plate as standard, but it's only the Lord that does. Yeah, I think he could be a decent Aspiring Champion. I also like @Trokair's suggestion of a sorcerer. Give him some sort of staff and he'll look the part.

I didn't realize they ever made a Forsaken kit. Just looked it up: whilst it's not great, I think it'll be good as a source of conversion bits for my own Forsaken, so good. I don't know. Ironbreakers/drakes, Hammerers/Longboards and Gyrocopters/bombers are all AoS kits yet are getting included in TOW. I guess it might be a sign that they will be cut in the next CoS book. Warriors got great weapons and halberds as a separate upgrade pack, and I think you could build both two hand weapons and hand weapons and shields on the base kit, so all options should be doable. I think Chosen will require conversions, as the old models were metal/resin who seem only to have come with great weapons. Not sure how easy the new plastic Chosen will be to give different weapon options (their poses are probably quite great weapons specific). I get the feeling we'll be expected to do some conversion/kit bashing, at least in the short term. We'll see though.

What are people's thoughts on the Darkoath box? Good Marauder and Spawn proxies or no? Does the Chieftain in horse have use as anything (he is somewhat lacking in armor to be wearing Chaos Armour, but he looks good)?

Apparently not 😮

Very nice! I think he fits in well with TOW High Elves. As an aside, I really hope we get those Lothern Seaguard re-released. They are so much nicer than the old 6th edition Spear and Bow elves.

Yeah, I don't buy it. The Throne of Chaos campaign is not contemporary to The Old World. I guess it may happen eventually, but I'm not counting on it.

Or Darkoath maybe?

Yeah, that's my first thought. All the kits in the O&G Battalion are old even by TOW standards (all are from early 6th edition). Meanwhile the Dwarf on its a mix of later 6th edition sculpts (the Dwarf Warriors and the Quarrellers) and 8th (the two Gyrocopter/bombers). I couldn't see myself ever using those old O&G sculpts, but the Dwarfs are fine by me, especially when I can also be taking the (also 8th edition?) Ironbreaker and Hammerer kits in my army and the new plastic Shield Bearer kit. So I expect the Dwarf release to sell better.

I'd say Squats were the nearest to being equivalent in this case (when they were dropped they were equivalent to other factions at the same time in terms of support), and there's a reason people talk about things being "Squatted". Chaos Dwarfs are the next nearest, but as you say they were not a fully supported army at the time. I suspect I'm some ways they were reading there popularity via the WD army list, and found them not to be very popular so they didn't get official support. Agreed completely on Witch Hunters (you can still buy some of their minis now from that era, and they have non-legends rules) and Fimirs (such a stretch).

I love that Chariot so much. It's just gorgeous. Also love the converted lord!

They are surprisingly big yes. If you're interested: https://old.reddit.com/r/WarhammerFantasy/comments/1br8mp3/dragon_ogre_shartak_ready_for_paint/ One of the things that's a bit weird is that the existing (or formerly existing) Shaggoth is hardly bigger than the plastic Dragon Ogres (and both are on 50x75mm bases in TOW). Seems a shame not to have Shaggoths be significantly bigger.

Also interested.

A fifth grand alliance, and then a souping of the existing four into a great resistance. Like the crowning of Malekith as Phoenix King (where seemingly all the High Elves just shrugged their shoulders at the centuries of war crimes and said "well I guess the fire says he's a goodie so we forgive him"), no one will bat an eyelid at Archaon working alongside Stormcast.