Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[Walrustaco]

yes 😈

[Kasper]

15 hours ago, MKsmash said:

Sir, I was talking to @Sleboda, as he had made this same comment after I lost to Petrifex the first time. Yes, I had played them before this and I was continuing a conversation. Thank you for the criticism, but please don't interfere. And if you must, see the whole conversation beforehand.

How am I supposed to know from your reply that you are continuing a conversation that apparently requires 20 pages of reading?

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Just a thought, but maybe consider not calling someone with whom you disagree "stupid."

I wasn't calling him stupid, but his post? More specifically I was referring to his comment about requiring a "peer reviewed analysis".

[Scurvydog]

11 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I wasn't calling him stupid, but his post? More specifically I was referring to his comment about requiring a "peer reviewed analysis".

It seems you misunderstood his post. He made a joke which was more a jab at this entire thread than your post, looking at the reactions to his post, clearly a lot of people found that funny as well. 

His point was jokingly saying that someone commenting on an armys performance based on at least some kind of playing experience is still far better than creating a topic with a hyperbolic title based on no data or experiences at all, which as has been proven will achieve little less than being an echo chamber for complaining about the "new thing". 

Anyway next month we can close this thread and move on to "Slaves to Darkness, hideously overpowered?", as the longbeards shift focus to grumble about the next new thing some people might be excited about. 

"Command Points!? Bah! back in my day we had to pretend to twirl our mustaches to rerolls and talk to our imaginary horse!"

"Things were better when terrain was homemade and did nothing, as good terrain should"

"Made up things before 1990 are the only decent made up things #not my make-believe"

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ Mod Hat On +++
 

Just read through the last few posts over the last few pages and can I remind  you all that TGA is for everybody. We may not all agree on the same things but there’s no reason to be nasty about it. Any more toxic posts will result in this thread being locked and warning points being issued.

[Ser_namron]

Ya i think terrain needs to be costed as well, or they need to keep the power levels toned down. Gnawholes and bone tithe nexus and sylvaneth forests are the ones that stick out to me. The forest is pretty important to the armies gimmicks though, so that one may be harder to balance without taking away from the tome. 

Bone tithe nexus has what, 5 options? all are viable, and the size/range on them is never really going to be an issue as the one setting it down. Compare that to older terrain like the deepkin ships, or the fyreslayers forge and its just laughably overpowered compared to those. I dont think its winning any games on its own ( allthough the option to slow down a unit is pretty insane) but when you get it FOR FREE, in every OBR list you run....thats just way too good for something that cost you nothing but actual money.  Its the saem for Gnawholes, they are so much bang for your buck when it costs 0 points. 

I like seeing terrain on the field, but if GW is going to powercreep terrain just to sell kits than i would rather not have any, or have them costed as needed.

** rereading the thread, i missed liek2 pages of discussion, but it had ntohing to do with my comment anyways sooooo, carry on  **

Edited December 2, 2019 by Ser_namron

[Pennydude]

I played a friendly game against OBR with my Sylvaneth on Sunday and learned really fast how deadly Mortek Guard can be.   Seems like shooting is how you take them off the board or you try to snipe the heroes if the bodyguard unit isn't around.  Learned that Drycha just blends Arkhan and Mortek Guard with her deadly bugs.

One issue I have, kinda piggybacking on what Ser_namron mentions, is how the OBR faction terrain operates.  My wyldwoods help me with movement and area control, the Fyreslayer's forge (or pizza oven) helps with their prayers, the Skaven's gnawholes help with movement and spellcasting, etc.  The Bone-Tithe Nexus does nothing to actually help their own army.  It just deals damage or de-buffs the enemy.  It feels extremely tacked-on and unnecessary.  

Just my two cents.

[Chumphammer]

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

I played a friendly game against OBR with my Sylvaneth on Sunday and learned really fast how deadly Mortek Guard can be.   Seems like shooting is how you take them off the board or you try to snipe the heroes if the bodyguard unit isn't around.  Learned that Drycha just blends Arkhan and Mortek Guard with her deadly bugs.

One issue I have, kinda piggybacking on what Ser_namron mentions, is how the OBR faction terrain operates.  My wyldwoods help me with movement and area control, the Fyreslayer's forge (or pizza oven) helps with their prayers, the Skaven's gnawholes help with movement and spellcasting, etc.  The Bone-Tithe Nexus does nothing to actually help their own army.  It just deals damage or de-buffs the enemy.  It feels extremely tacked-on and unnecessary.  

Just my two cents.

As a DoK player I am just jealous those listed armies get faction terrain

Shooting is a good way to deal with them, as are mortal wounds.

I have found Blood Sisters amazing vs OB

High bravery, usually 4+/5++ with 2W

3 attacks 3+/3+ -1 1D (though most o the time with Mindrazor for the rend -2) plus with Crystal touch make them really useful in that fight (well most fights really bar Slaanesh)

 

[Scurvydog]

1 hour ago, Pennydude said:

I played a friendly game against OBR with my Sylvaneth on Sunday and learned really fast how deadly Mortek Guard can be.   Seems like shooting is how you take them off the board or you try to snipe the heroes if the bodyguard unit isn't around.  Learned that Drycha just blends Arkhan and Mortek Guard with her deadly bugs.

One issue I have, kinda piggybacking on what Ser_namron mentions, is how the OBR faction terrain operates.  My wyldwoods help me with movement and area control, the Fyreslayer's forge (or pizza oven) helps with their prayers, the Skaven's gnawholes help with movement and spellcasting, etc.  The Bone-Tithe Nexus does nothing to actually help their own army.  It just deals damage or de-buffs the enemy.  It feels extremely tacked-on and unnecessary.  

Just my two cents.

Shooting and mortal wounds does absoutely wreck them, which is a stable for expensive units per wound, every single mortal wound hurts a lot and healing output is extremely limited for a death army.

Faction terrain is completely fine in theory. It is the extension of allegiance abilities and should not be considered a "unit". The talk about the Fyreslayer forge being terrible and the nexus insane next to it makes no sense at all, how is the pizza oven giving +cast to prayers bad and can even be used to give mystic shield army wide for a turn, that is not insignificant.

The Nexus I agree is odd, it looks cool, but takes a lot of space, is set up before sides are chosen and other terrain is placed, so will usually just be put right in the middle. It does not make a lot of sense and while the effects can be potent, it is also very unreliable and not something to plan any strategy around, making it feel sort of pointless, yet a nice bonus for the OB player but plain annoying for the opponent. It feels cooler in the battletome battleplan where the OB player needs to defend it against attacks, but in the normal scenarios it is just sort of there.

[Inquisitorsz]

Considering how difficult and restrictive it can be sometimes to put down a Sylvaneth wyldwood , it's annoying that the Nexus get's free reign with pretty much no restrictions. And it really didn't have to have such a massive footprint. If it was like a 60mm or 100mm base that would be fine. Otherwise I think it should be limited to the OBR's deployment zone. That way it's a bit more defensive, doesn't get to automatically cover the whole table and might even force them to think about their deployment a bit.   
I mean it's free, so even if you don't get use out of it for a turn or 2, then it's not like you're losing anything. 
That, or it needs it massive range reduced a fair bit. Wyldwoods are huge but their effects are very short range, same for most other faction terrain, especially the ones that affect enemy models. 

[Eldarain]

My biggest source of annoyance isn't just their power level (which is very high) It's the comprehensive stacking of special exceptions/crutches. It's just irritating that it feels like I'm playing one game and they ignore most/all the restrictions I'm following.

I get 1 CP a turn with a couple of my armies being able to get 1-3 extra sometimes. They get 5-11 a round (and are immune to the negative effects armies have against CP because of course they are) They also generate them at the start of a round so are fully able to buff anything needed in case they are alpha'd

They're Endless Spells completely negate the double edge sword mechanic most others have to consider because of course they do.

I have to keep my units supported with heroes close by to use command abilities on them. Every Champion in theirs fills the same role. Positioning is for the weak.

Their terrain piece gets complete freedom to dominate the table with long range debilitating debuffs while mine can struggle to be placed/clog up small deployment zones etc

Army wide Battleshock immunity because an army ignoring an entire core mechanic while already being incredibly tough to do damage to is fun. (Even more egregious as making them save some RDP for an IP equivalent would help with the next point)

Their "Battleline" unit is insane. 3+ rerolling saves in melee all the time. And when needed whichever unit of 20 needs to can pump out 61 2+ to hit rend -2 attacks that explode on 6s (can be 5s) These guys do it all. Most armies elite units envy the comprehensive ability of these guys.

 

As a new player it's just a lot. If I'm not playing shooting/mortal spam it just feels like a wasted evening as my army bounces off and crumbles.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Eldarain

[zilberfrid]

51 minutes ago, Eldarain said:

My biggest source of annoyance isn't just their power level (which is very high) It's the comprehensive stacking of special exceptions/crutches. It's just irritating that it feels like I'm playing one game and they ignore most/all the restrictions I'm following.

I get 1 CP a turn with a couple of my armies being able to get 1-3 extra sometimes. They get 5-11 a round (and are immune to the negative effects armies have against CP because of course they are) They also generate them at the start of a round so are fully able to buff anything needed in case they are alpha'd

They're Endless Spells completely negate the double edge sword mechanic most others have to consider because of course they do.

I have to keep my units supported with heroes close by to use command abilities on them. Every Champion in theirs fills the same role. Positioning is for the weak.

Their terrain piece gets complete freedom to dominate the table with long range debilitating debuffs while mine can struggle to be placed/clog up small deployment zones etc

Army wide Battleshock immunity because an army ignoring an entire core mechanic while already being incredibly tough to do damage to is fun. (Even more egregious as making them save some RDP for an IP equivalent would help with the next point)

Their "Battleline" unit is insane. 3+ rerolling saves in melee all the time. And when needed whichever unit of 20 needs to can pump out 61 2+ to hit rend -2 attacks that explode on 6s (can be 5s) These guys do it all. Most armies elite units envy the comprehensive ability of these guys.

 

As a new player it's just a lot. If I'm not playing shooting/mortal spam it just feels like a wasted evening as my army bounces off and crumbles.

Not just shooting, high rend shooting, which pretty much counters everything (as with mortal wounds). Darkshards are not going to cut it outside of Anvilgard (and your casters are dead, because catapults).

[Walrustaco]

Yeah idk If they’re op but they are not fun to play against. At all. Boring actually.

[Souleater]

I think most of @Eldarain's points are valid. 

Even just using Null Myriad or Crematorian I have found them to be pretty tanky against regular wounds...plus they have some recursion...and Battleshock is something that happens to other armies.

There are some negatives- for example my Leige Kavalos flubbing a 3" charge last game. I had four RDP...but nothing I could do to get him into combat.

The battletome really feels like it came out in a different era to other recent ones like Orruks, for example. 

At the moment my thoughts are to play OBR for a bit to see if they feel less like my SCE...if not I fully intend to go Soulblight instead.

 

@Eldarain you can still steal CP from us, if your army has that ability. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Souleater

[Galdenistal]

1 hour ago, Souleater said:

The battletome really feels like it came out in a different era to other recent ones like Orruks, for example.

I was going to say something similar, it feels like it was written by someone who hasn't read any of the other battletomes and / or playtester feedback was ignored as the direction of the army was already set in stone by that point.

[Overread]

GW does have different teams working on the books - I think there's two. Also its important to realise that many of these books might be months old by the time we get them - so chances are that much of the last 6 months of feedback was just not possible to work into the Reapers gameplay wise. 

 

I think the real test for AoS and GW in general is how they adjust the game moving forward. With the faster turn around to updates there is potential for GW to react in a more favourable way to user feedback and adjsut the game. I just hope that they do it with MORE tools than just point cost chances (which they seem to prefer doing). I say that because most of the time its dealing with overpowered stuff and the point cost change to fix that is to increase points. Which to me is a bad approach because it means powerful armies start to just become elite armies putting fewer and fewer models on the table. For a miniature wargame I feel that's the wrong direction to take (outside of curtailing summoning). 

 

That said GW has never been brilliant with balance and I think part of it is their key writers tend to be more casual minded players than s trict highly competitive ones (even if they do compete). It's an attitude that you can see in the way that they write rules and the language they choose and you can contrast it to a game like Magic the Gathering (which in fairness actually has very simple rules - in that game its more about interactions than rules); where you've very tightly written and specific language and universal phrases. GW also shoot themselves somewhat because they do a lot of "here's a rule" " now here's a battletome rule that breaks that rule." Which then creates confusion when two abilities break the same rule at the same time from different battletomes. 

[Scurvydog]

18 hours ago, Eldarain said:

My biggest source of annoyance isn't just their power level (which is very high) It's the comprehensive stacking of special exceptions/crutches. It's just irritating that it feels like I'm playing one game and they ignore most/all the restrictions I'm following.

As I new player I can understand this but can't agree either, as this is basically the norm for every new tome to break some core rule. In fact besides how CP work, the reapers "break" far less than many other armies. The trademark of the top armies currently is to mess with the order things happen in phases, especially the combat phase, where you will see the strongest armies being able to dictate the flow, like fighting first no matter what you do. The Reapers do not do this and they do not limit YOUR gameplay and options in the same degree.

People need to discard the thought that OB just get free CPs. They completely discard one mechanic for another. Their battleline litterally have no abilities at all besides these discipline triggered abilities, so GW has made this a different economy, it is not like any other army has 0 rules for their units and need CP to activate those. It needs to be understood their entire allegiance abilties are centered around this mechanic, the nexus and the discipline points is what this army is all about. 

Maybe as a new player you are not aware of all the allegiance abilties floating around, but many armies can summon completely new units to the tabe, force you to fight last no matter what in combat, teleport at will and so on and so on. GW made something new with the system, which is an economy that replaces something else, so it is a tradeoff too. Orruks for example in Big Waagh get both their Waagh points and CP as normal, but that is all part of an overall design, you can't just cherry pick pet peeves here and there.

Armies like Khorne and Fyreslayers already "broke" endless spells by having judgements and invocations doing the same thing, but with 0 risk at all. Slaanesh is also entirely immune to their own endless spell effects, the reapers can control their predatory spells, but suffer a -1 cast pentalty as long as they have it active. 

The only thing this thread should be concerned with might be the Petrifex Elite legion which is insanely poorly balanced, it is too strong and gives the entire army a bad rep, which the Mortek Guard reroll ability magnifies. Any other legion is far from as oppressive. Against other legions games will be "regular" warhammer most of the time, they are one of the new tomes breaking the least rules, while just being strong in general. 

Take this, a single Keeper of Secrets alone breaks far more rules of the core game than all of the OB book. 1 model can manipulate the fighting phase order, fight twice, auto hit with traits, summon more units by just killing and taking damage, force you to take mortal wounds or possibly die, heal itself from both attacks and spells.

Even regular legions of nagash can have entire units wiped out and replace them, recently with the reapers with 4+ unrendable saves in 30 man blocks which could be entirely replaced for 1 CP. Yet these lists fell from grace due to the above.

If GW just erratas petrifex with some nerfs, that should mostly fix the tome, and at that point it will just be a good tome but not a top 5 tome compared to others out there. They are certainly not the only ones in need of being brought in line.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Scurvydog

[Scurvydog]

15 hours ago, Walrustaco said:

Yeah idk If they’re op but they are not fun to play against. At all. Boring actually.

I am curious of what you find fun to play against?

Slaanesh who wipes you out before you can strike?

DoK with 10 pt battleline with  5++ rerolling save and 4 attacks? Morathi who cannot take more than 3 wounds per turn?

Lords of the lodge fyreslayers striking first and 2 times with hearthguards? 

Deepkin with all of the army striking first in turn 3?

I really want to know what is "fun" and why can't OB be fun? Is it just the people you have fought only owning buckets of Mortek Guards making a wall? The army can make many builds, and comparing it to the variety found in many other tomes, they are doing quite well with multiple units and could field both cavalry and monster armies, a Nagash list or Arkhan with his explosive friends. I also own Ironjawz and Nighthaunt and they are far more one dimensional, either having only 3 units to choose from in total or every single thing being a 1 wound ghost with 4+ ethereal save.

 

[chosen_of_khaine]

18 hours ago, Eldarain said:

My biggest source of annoyance isn't just their power level (which is very high) It's the comprehensive stacking of special exceptions/crutches. It's just irritating that it feels like I'm playing one game and they ignore most/all the restrictions I'm following.

It's interesting people are finding OBR as  getting "exceptions to core rules", whereas I've found the opposite to be true in terms of actual gameplay - they fight completely traditional combat, just extremely efficiently (which makes sense fluff wise). They have no fight first / force enemy to fight last abilities, no pile in  / fight twice abilities (barring very limited Immortis shield attacks), no deep strike / teleport, no exceptional mortal wound output, no summoning, etc. 

High CP generation and battleshock immunity are not unique to OBR, or to many 2.0 tomes.

[Overread]

I think the "lack of fun" with Reapers that some experience is that you can't just mash into them mindlessly in combat and have a hope to win. A lot of armies have power tricks, but once you get into the meat of combat, even if they are better than you, you can still take a lot of casualties with you as you go. Even with Slaanesh getting all their "fights last" tricks you can still take out a good chunk.

 

With Reapers there's a good chance that if you just blindly attack not only will they kill your models, but you'll hardly take out many and those you do might well come back to life. Reapers are almost the perfect tarpit army that will simply outlast many in close combat if you're not careful. To many that seems "unfun" because they've got to change their method of play to adapt to a new situation. It's also not always apparent about what you have to do at first - even to the point where you have to learn that the block of guard and two or three harvesters - whilst very attractive to attack - might actually be something you leave alone. You leave it to let it move up slowly and instead you focus on other areas of the game board. 

Honestly I'm actually quite happy with Reapers being like that. I think they are one army, more than others, that will force an element of adaptive play and learning new approaches to the game. It doesn't make them boring to play against (any more or any less than others) it just makes them different. I think once we are past the initial learning phase people will get a handle on how to tackle them. On going for the harvester over the warriors; on ignoring powerblocks; on accepting that you might not win in combat but if you can lock their army down for one or two turns they can't move fast enough over the whole army to recover board control. 

[Eldarain]

3 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

As I new player I can understand this but can't agree either, as this is basically the norm for every new tome to break some core rule. In fact besides how CP work, the reapers "break" far less than many other armies. The trademark of the top armies currently is to mess with the order things happen in phases, especially the combat phase, where you will see the strongest armies being able to dictate the flow, like fighting first no matter what you do. The Reapers do not do this and they do not limit YOUR gameplay and options in the same degree.

People need to discard the thought that OB just get free CPs. They completely discard one mechanic for another. Their battleline litterally have no abilities at all besides these discipline triggered abilities, so GW has made this a different economy, it is not like any other army has 0 rules for their units and need CP to activate those. It needs to be understood their entire allegiance abilties are centered around this mechanic, the nexus and the discipline points is what this army is all about. 

Maybe as a new player you are not aware of all the allegiance abilties floating around, but many armies can summon completely new units to the tabe, force you to fight last no matter what in combat, teleport at will and so on and so on. GW made something new with the system, which is an economy that replaces something else, so it is a tradeoff too. Orruks for example in Big Waagh get both their Waagh points and CP as normal, but that is all part of an overall design, you can't just cherry pick pet peeves here and there.

Armies like Khorne and Fyreslayers already "broke" endless spells by having judgements and invocations doing the same thing, but with 0 risk at all. Slaanesh is also entirely immune to their own endless spell effects, the reapers can control their predatory spells, but suffer a -1 cast pentalty as long as they have it active. 

The only thing this thread should be concerned with might be the Petrifex Elite legion which is insanely poorly balanced, it is too strong and gives the entire army a bad rep, which the Mortek Guard reroll ability magnifies. Any other legion is far from as oppressive. Against other legions games will be "regular" warhammer most of the time, they are one of the new tomes breaking the least rules, while just being strong in general. 

Take this, a single Keeper of Secrets alone breaks far more rules of the core game than all of the OB book. 1 model can manipulate the fighting phase order, fight twice, auto hit with traits, summon more units by just killing and taking damage, force you to take mortal wounds or possibly die, heal itself from both attacks and spells.

Even regular legions of nagash can have entire units wiped out and replace them, recently with the reapers with 4+ unrendable saves in 30 man blocks which could be entirely replaced for 1 CP. Yet these lists fell from grace due to the above.

If GW just erratas petrifex with some nerfs, that should mostly fix the tome, and at that point it will just be a good tome but not a top 5 tome compared to others out there. They are certainly not the only ones in need of being brought in line.

A well thought out and helpful post.  I definitely don't have a comprehensive knowledge of AoS.

I know that much of my frustration can probably be placed that my favourite army doesn't feel like it has much to make the OBR player worried at all.

All my Squigs, Trolls, Fanatics just bounce off the Guard and get one shotted. My wizards are cowering all game as being visible= death with Sniper Rifle Catapults

[Walrustaco]

8 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

I am curious of what you find fun to play against?

Slaanesh who wipes you out before you can strike?

DoK with 10 pt battleline with  5++ rerolling save and 4 attacks? Morathi who cannot take more than 3 wounds per turn?

Lords of the lodge fyreslayers striking first and 2 times with hearthguards? 

Deepkin with all of the army striking first in turn 3?

I really want to know what is "fun" and why can't OB be fun? Is it just the people you have fought only owning buckets of Mortek Guards making a wall? The army can make many builds, and comparing it to the variety found in many other tomes, they are doing quite well with multiple units and could field both cavalry and monster armies, a Nagash list or Arkhan with his explosive friends. I also own Ironjawz and Nighthaunt and they are far more one dimensional, either having only 3 units to choose from in total or every single thing being a 1 wound ghost with 4+ ethereal save.

 

Dang maybe this whole game sucks when its fully optimised and WAAC 🤨

[Eldarain]

9 hours ago, Overread said:

I think the "lack of fun" with Reapers that some experience is that you can't just mash into them mindlessly in combat and have a hope to win. A lot of armies have power tricks, but once you get into the meat of combat, even if they are better than you, you can still take a lot of casualties with you as you go. Even with Slaanesh getting all their "fights last" tricks you can still take out a good chunk.

 

With Reapers there's a good chance that if you just blindly attack not only will they kill your models, but you'll hardly take out many and those you do might well come back to life. Reapers are almost the perfect tarpit army that will simply outlast many in close combat if you're not careful. To many that seems "unfun" because they've got to change their method of play to adapt to a new situation. It's also not always apparent about what you have to do at first - even to the point where you have to learn that the block of guard and two or three harvesters - whilst very attractive to attack - might actually be something you leave alone. You leave it to let it move up slowly and instead you focus on other areas of the game board. 

Honestly I'm actually quite happy with Reapers being like that. I think they are one army, more than others, that will force an element of adaptive play and learning new approaches to the game. It doesn't make them boring to play against (any more or any less than others) it just makes them different. I think once we are past the initial learning phase people will get a handle on how to tackle them. On going for the harvester over the warriors; on ignoring powerblocks; on accepting that you might not win in combat but if you can lock their army down for one or two turns they can't move fast enough over the whole army to recover board control. 

Maybe it's just my Gitz not having the ranged output/mortals necessary to properly counteract them.

My experience hasn't aligned with what you've put here. The Morteks move 9-14 putting them squarely on mid field objectives.

No idea what to "lock them up with" their offense is nuts. 61 2+ 4+ -2 rend attacks that can reroll 1s and explode on 5s make a puddle of most things I've tried.

[Dolomyte]

1 hour ago, Eldarain said:

Maybe it's just my Gitz not having the ranged output/mortals necessary to properly counteract them.

My experience hasn't aligned with what you've put here. The Morteks move 9-14 putting them squarely on mid field objectives.

No idea what to "lock them up with" their offense is nuts. 61 2+ 4+ -2 rend attacks that can reroll 1s and explode on 5s make a puddle of most things I've tried.

Can’t you give a unit of 60 grots reroll pretty much everything and do mortal wounds on sixes?  and with like a bajillion attacks? 

[Chikout]

A gloomspite army with lots of cheap  casters, morks mighty mushroom, purple sun and the pendulum should do some work against OBR. Purple sun is 50 points particularly well spent as it ignores all the OBR saves.