Ossiarch Bonereapers, hideously overpowered?

[HollowHills]

I know there is a general discussion for the Bonereapers, but I wanted a separate thread to discuss their powerlevel from a neutral perspective. 

Obviously we haven't seen the points costs or full rules yet, so there is a pinch of salt here. 

Based on the warscrolls, the subfactions and even the scenery piece today I have to say I am concerned. 

Several warscrolls contain abilities that allow full rerolls, which we've seen to be incredibly powerful in the past with DoK. The subfactions bonuses seem way better than other armies, for example I believe the run and charge with retreat and charge ability is likely to be incredibly good for board control. 

Everything I'm seeing is saying to me this is another instance if powercreep. I strongly suspect it has been done to ensure the models sell. So GW don't have a KO or IDK situation where the armies largely have weak rules that prohibit model sales. (I don't mean eels, I mean everything else). 

Thoughts? 

[Emissary]

I know you mention it, but lets get at least half the full picture of the army before we start running around with our hands in the air.

We haven't seen anything allowing them to fight twice or change the fighting order and it was mentioned they won't be able to summon which are the main drivers of the meta.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Emissary

[Forrix]

I'd say its more like the ingredients are all there for the most OP battletome we have ever seen but we just don't know yet. An army wide +1 save in an army that is already 4+ for the most part is extremely potent. Depending on point cost and model recursion ability I got see Mortek Guard being beyond disgusting.  

We will know very soon but I'm confident enough to predict they'll at least be a strong army. I'm going give GW the benefit of the doubt and hold off on hitting the OP button until I've watched the battletome reviews tomorrow.

[Overread]

I would wait and see for launch day. It's way too early to be crying wolf on overpowered aspects when we can't see the full rules nor points for anything in the army. Right now I think they are rather like Gotrek. They sound really powerful and really nasty, but in actual playing they are bound to have some weak points. Also don't forget that right now GW is selling them (along with Ogors) and is focusing on all the benefits and strengths of the army. Showing off all the unique and powerful things that they can do. They do the same for any army launch. 

My impression is that they are going to be an army that can work really powerfully, but which is harder to control because you won't be able to just mindlessly charge them forward. There has to be a plan and intention and well timed choices. 

 

 

But its still all up in the air. Even the battletome reviews won't show it all in terms of how they actually perform. You'll want to wait at least a few weeks after launch before worrying about their overpowered nature. Plus remembering that sometimes an army appears overpowered because opponents don't yet know how to deal with them. So they make choices that play into the factions strengths without abusing their weaknesses. 

 

[Mayple]

I think they'll definitely be on the strong side. The +1 to saves for your whole army is going to be a clear default winner, with the other subfactions fitting more specialized builds. If they ship out with re-animation abilities/return slain units to the field like other death factions, it might very well be a top contender right off the bat.

I'd imagine the faction is meant to be hindered by its own mobility, but we'll see how that turns out. For all we know, they got spells/abilities to work around that

Either way; it's hard to say anything for certain, but we can at least deduce that it is a strong faction. Broken? Eh, we'll see once the book comes out.

[Charleston]

 

 

Edit: Sorry, I couldn´t resist. 

To submit a serious answer to the topic: There are several reasons why OBR will have a powerfull start into the game.

• First of all GW often tunes newer factions to have some neat toys older factions don´t have. One can argue if it is devs learning or selling technique.
• People need to adapt how to play with/against them. It´s easier to learn how to do some serious stuff with a faction than to learn how to outplay it. This is something a lot of players don´t concider. When you play the first times against a faction, you really do not know what to expect if you´re not really into it. It is easier for your opponent to suprise you with stuff you won´t let happen again.
• It takes time until points are settled down to be on a valid level
• GW always tend to make new factions stronger than existing as they have to make sure that it is attractive for players to buy them.

Despite of this: Yes, the OBR look damn impressive right now. Like every other new tome they are packed with rules, maybe some more than it is good for the game. But this is the general state of the game right now, with Age of Goodstuff and things.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Charleston

[Forrix]

2 minutes ago, Overread said:

Even the battletome reviews won't show it all in terms of how they actually perform. You'll want to wait at least a few weeks after launch before worrying about their overpowered nature. Plus remembering that sometimes an army appears overpowered because opponents don't yet know how to deal with them. So they make choices that play into the factions strengths without abusing their weaknesses. 

Honestly, when a battletome is busted level OP its been pretty clear to me just from the rules. A fast monster that kills anything it touches (pretty much) and always attacks before anything else? Yup, RIP armies that don't fight first or have good shooting. A glass cannon army that's actually made out of steel due to a lodge-equivalent ability or crazy summoning? Yeah, that's gonna be winning more than a few tournaments.

With Bonereapers  my concern is how much power is in their allegiance/sub faction rules and will they account for that power appropriately when assigning them points cost. If its apparent they just went off of the base warscroll when pointing things then I'll start waving my arms around.

[Emissary]

10 minutes ago, Mayple said:

I think they'll definitely be on the strong side. The +1 to saves for your whole army is going to be a clear default winner, with the other subfactions fitting more specialized builds. If they ship out with re-animation abilities/return slain units to the field like other death factions, it might very well be a top contender right off the bat.

I'd imagine the faction is meant to be hindered by its own mobility, but we'll see how that turns out. For all we know, they got spells/abilities to work around that

Either way; it's hard to say anything for certain, but we can at least deduce that it is a strong faction. Broken? Eh, we'll see once the book comes out.

We've already seen the boneshaper card.  It's a wizard and in your hero phrase you pick a unit near it and heal 3 wounds on the unit or resurrect up to 3 wounds worth of models.  I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't the only model that can do things like that (I'm looking at you Gothizar Harvester).  It has been mentioned that they cannot create new units.  Have to see when the leaks really start flowing.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Emissary

[Mutton]

Let's wait for them to be on the table first.

[Panzer]

Way too early to call the sky is falling. We don't even know the points yet.

[smartazjb0y]

7 minutes ago, Panzer said:

Way too early to call the sky is falling. We don't even know the points yet.

I've never understood the rush to judge the balance of things before points are even out. That's like, a core part of the discussion. That's like saying "does anyone think this laptop is overpriced?" based on the features, before we even get the price announced. 

[PJetski]

My favourite part of reveal season is that some people lose their minds and cry that it is overpowered even though we have only seen a few sentences of rules.

[Scurvydog]

GW usually also only shows the coolest parts and leaves the "Tax" stuff out, like bad artifacts and command traits forced on your for different legions. Yes they CAN be tough in 1 of the legions giving 3+ save, Saurus guards can get 2+ saves but nobody cries about them, why are they not dominating the meta with that logic then? Quite clearly many factors are in play.

I see no "fight again" command abilities, I see no fight first or fight last stuff either, the activation wars is everything currently and we have seen none of that in the bonereapers.

Saying anything we have seen is hideously overpowered is quite premature, at least compared to so many other things in the game currentl. Have you seen a Skarbrand buffed with more attacks and angry, doing 3 attacks doing 8 to 16 mortals wounds per attack on a 1+? then using 1 CP to do it again? Idoneth eels with 2+ unmodified saves and army wide first strike. DoK with 5+ rerollable damage ignore saves on their 10 pts battlelines. 

There is nothing indicating Bonereapers will smash anything to pieces of the top dogs currently, it looks good and solid, but I have seen no auto win stuff, and especially with no points, even the stuff we have seen is hard to value properly.

[jackmcmahon]

Game is ruined. Let's play Monopoly.

[Mayple]

14 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Yes they CAN be tough in 1 of the legions giving 3+ save, Saurus guards can get 2+ saves but nobody cries about them, why are they not dominating the meta with that logic then? Quite clearly many factors are in play.

I agree with your post's overall point, but I don't think this is a fair comparison to make. Saurus Guard is a heavy heavy heavy elite/expensive unit which requires a fair few moving parts to get to that point (as well as a battalion? Unsure) -- and that would only affect them. They're great, but aren't comparable to a faction-wide save bonus, since that's a different fruit entirely, no?

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Emissary said:

I know you mention it, but lets get at least half the full picture of the army before we start running around with our hands in the air.

We haven't seen anything allowing them to fight twice or change the fighting order and it was mentioned they won't be able to summon which are the main drivers of the meta.

Agreed. If they get non of these abilities, their warscrolls overall have to be quite strong to stand a fighting chance against the current meta. 

I would wait and see.

[Reuben Parker]

Not sure they will be OP as others have said we need to see points, number of models and speed for objective play. However the part I don’t like is that +1 save in a faction that has multiple units that can re roll all saves may render the other subfactions obsolete. Looking at the ogres who I also have the subfactions all seem good.

Im primarily a tournament player but I still have to play armies / lists that I enjoy. As such I only want to play reapers if it’s using mainly the big stuff (I have lots of horde / number armies already) and may well be the ivory host who have the most rules for those models. 

[Indecisive]

lol
can we wait a tiny bit to see an actual warscroll in full first?

[HollowHills]

I get what people are saying about waiting for points, but I do think what we are seeing is a really strong army based on the previews. 

I mean I've been playing aos for awhile and try to follow the rules of all the armies to judge their competitiveness. I always work in the assumption gw will show off cool rules for new armies, but even based on the preview these rules are better than similarly previewed abilities in the past. 

People are talking about the standout plus one save, but even look at the other bits. Such as a unit that can reroll all saves, a unit that can pick between lots of reroll options or extra damage and a subfactions that allows run and charge plus retreat and charge at all times. 

Hell even the free faction scenery can make stuff minus 1 to hit or minus 1 to cast fairly reliably. Compare that to other faction scenery and its so much better. 

Also just as a note, I know the thread title is a bit extreme but "are bonereapers looking a bit op based on previews" probably wouldn't have generated as much chatter. 

[zilberfrid]

I agree waiting is in order, but I do think there are quite a few components of an overpowered faction.

Just like I will probably choose not to fight a triple keeper army after trying twice, I always have the option not to play if they are as/more broken than the current most broken ones.

By just conceding that these types of armies should not be played against, maybe people will choose a more balanced one if they want to play.

Edited October 25, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Reuben Parker]

The interesting thing I think is that the run away best army at the moment are SCE and if you asked people to list “broken” armies they wouldn’t be at the top. 

So what people hate playing against and feel is OP maybe not that insane at top tier play  

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-stats-21st-october-2019/

[Panzer]

17 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I get what people are saying about waiting for points, but I do think what we are seeing is a really strong army based on the previews. 

I mean I've been playing aos for awhile and try to follow the rules of all the armies to judge their competitiveness. I always work in the assumption gw will show off cool rules for new armies, but even based on the preview these rules are better than similarly previewed abilities in the past. 

People are talking about the standout plus one save, but even look at the other bits. Such as a unit that can reroll all saves, a unit that can pick between lots of reroll options or extra damage and a subfactions that allows run and charge plus retreat and charge at all times. 

Hell even the free faction scenery can make stuff minus 1 to hit or minus 1 to cast fairly reliably. Compare that to other faction scenery and its so much better.

And nothing of that is going to be overpowered or even strong if the units are overcosted. Still, you are overreacting quite a bit.

 

17 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

Also just as a note, I know the thread title is a bit extreme but "are bonereapers looking a bit op based on previews" probably wouldn't have generated as much chatter. 

So you are a fan of clickbait, I see.

[Sleboda]

Powercreep is an illusion.

Meta is a prefix for other words, not a word in its own right.

And, for good measure, NMM is wrong.

Lastly, my lawn is not to be walked upon.

 

That all said, I would love it if this army is totally OP. After decades of suffering with the weakest army ever in Warhammer, the Tomb Kings (especially that last version that was burped up by the worst Warhammer designer ever to write a fantasy rule, Robin Cruddace*), I would really enjoy a nice stretch of time being "rewarded" for my suffering.

😁 

 

 

*From what I understand, he's a perfectly nice person. It's just that he had zero understanding of Warhammer or the Tomb Kings when he was assigned their book and it showed massively. That book was the single worst Warhammer Armies book ever written, from a the rules perspective.

Edited October 25, 2019 by Sleboda

[Galas]

I just don't understand how a +1 save to all the army is a subfaction bonus comparable with +6" range for your leadbelchers... 

[jackmcmahon]

Well shooting in 5 turns instead of 4 is a 25% damage increase for what I assume would be the core of your army if picking that one can be pretty good.