The weird state of AoS Forgeworld

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

In reading this thread realized how deep I’d actually gotten into FW.  It started with a Chaos Dwarfs project I did for a friend which was a nightmare to get the two handed weapons aligned and reminded me how much I struggle painting at that small of a scale.  My most recent is a Mournghul kitbashed into a Varghulf Courtier.  In between I ran an Execution Herd (fully painted originals luckily acquired at a discount) w/Artillery and have managed to pick up some other pieces here & there.

My basic issue with the rules vs models gets right to the heart of the disconnect I see between FW and GW and it can be seen in with Sons of Behemat and the Bonegrinder even though they actually pretty quickly got a new WS out for it.  Given that WS’s limitations in interacting with rest of tome though I would most likely want to run it as an alternate Gatebreaker a majority of the time.  The problem is that the Bonegrinder is on a 120mm base vs rest of the Megan’s on 130mm.  Okay, so not too big a kitbash issue there but while Nurgle’s Exalted uses the same base size as its closest proxy in a GUO the Tzeentch is on a larger base than a regular LoC, the Slaanesh Exalted isn’t even on the same shape base and simply put the Khorne Bloodthirster on FW will never be a potential proxy for the rest.  

I’m  actually mostly fine with the latter Khorne example as it is FW trying to truly do something different but to be so close  but no cigar so often is just frustrating given the rules gap.  With Guild of Summoners it would be nice to be able to easily distinguish between your extra LoCs be proxying in an Exalted.  Assume the same is true for the multiple Keepers option for Slaanesh.  Making this a simpler option I would think would go along way to creating some goodwill to offset other FW frustrations.  When there is a rules “gap” let me still put this awesome model on the table.

And I’ve intentionally focused here mainly on Chaos Daemons models that play in both AoS and 40k because honestly I think that’s the most likely way we are to see new AoS FW models (though as another poster mentioned I’m still waiting for a WS for those awesome HH Khorne Daemons...)

Edited December 10, 2020 by Beer & Pretzels Gamer

[Noserenda]

6 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Not sure if you read my post.  All bar a couple of game systems are designed by the Specialist Games team run by Andy Hoare, it appears a deliberate move away from the old set up, which has received various amounts of bad press over the past few years (which is something we will not be discussing on here).

...

TL:DR FW as an entity does have a bit of bad rep in some circles, however let's not slate them for decisions that came from the business side of GW.

 

I did and its largely correct but Forgeworld and Specialist games as a whole is still run by Tony Cottrell and while they dont talk about him much these days (For various problematic reasons) he still puts his oar in on things, and most of the business decisions still ultimately lead back to him rather than some nebulous part of main GW. 
 

[Beastmaster]

I don’t really see a place for FW AoS models anymore. How I understood it, their business model was offering something special (big, exotic or just out-there) for a special price. It’s what current GW AoS is all about atm. And since rules are updated faster in AoS now, FW models lag behind even faster than in the olden days. 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Beastmaster

[SunStorm]

Is The Old World project being run by FW guys? Could work as a line like 30k working alongside 40k?

[Overread]

42 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

Is The Old World project being run by FW guys? Could work as a line like 30k working alongside 40k?

They've basically said that is their intention. However we've only got a tiny fraction of information and no idea how it will shape up. 

 

 

[Kaleb Daark]

56 minutes ago, Beastmaster said:

I don’t really see a place for FW AoS models anymore. How I understood it, their business model was offering something special (big, exotic or just out-there) for a special price. It’s what current GW AoS is all about atm. And since rules are updated faster in AoS now, FW models lag behind even faster than in the olden days. 

hmmm... I'd tend to disagree... ish.

FW AoS success does rely on GW as well.  Its easy to lambast FW and their frankly rubbish rules but GW also don't help matters.

You've got several tiers of tedious going on .  The GW rules team have taken up the rules writing for forgeworld, and lets face it, it's very sloppy.  What could be a lovely opportunity I always get the feeling for them is the wooden spoon, almost a give it to the work experience guy to do.  I mean come on the greater Khorgorath of Khorne doesn't even have the Khorgorath keyword for goodness sake!

There's no visibility in mainstream products.  I don't see one Exalted bloodthirster in the blades of Khorne book, all I see is that rubbish leaping kitty thirster which next to a FW thirster is just total and utter dog log.

GW could have a great revenue stream by promoting FW stuff in the main battletomes.  They could make a point of saying that it's challenging models for advanced modellers, whatever, but the point being that they don't.  if you don't know FW you'll never know it exists.

The Legion is another example of this, such huge potential, het left to fall by the wayside.  Again, they could be mentioned and featured in other battletomes but no. 

The original monstrous arcanum was a masterwork, and had the most wonderful allies and allegiance matrix in it, they could have made something special again and given a new lease of life to those models, but no.  Imagine a fireslayers or legion army being able to take a magma dragon for instance even if in the case of the legion it would be bound and enslaved to their will.  So much thematic sense, but no.

We go back to the same old arguments.

Back in the day, the mammoth was withdrawn together with the empire landship because of poor sales.  Yet they were both not legal tender in official GW tournaments until the penultimate tournament of 8th edition at warhammer world.  So who was to blame?

Any freeguild army would kill for that land ship now, in the same way that any Maggotkin army would love to have a toad dragon or Tamurkhan as a named character - would it have hurt to include either or in the maggotkin battletome?  

For a few brief games last year I managed to finally play my army that i'd cried out for since 8th, with my two mammoths, my curs'd ettin and all my marauders and bloodreavers running around in angry norscan style.  It was great, and it was brilliant.  Competitive? who cares, visually it was the absolute nuts.

That mammoth would sell by the bucket load now, especially as prices have aligned themselves a little better and in fact modern GW prices make some FW seem almost reasonable,

So in answer to your original thought, I do think that there is a place for them still , but I really really feel that it needs a shared co-operation, otherwise just can the whole lot and go home.  I love the FW vision as it suits my sense of grittiness and style rather than the super bling and edge highlighting style that most of the GW stuff it now, but whether by intent or design it's always been the white elephant in the room and of old that was by GW's design rather than FW.

Going back to the mammoth back in 8th, thre was no end of people willing to drop the small mortgage on one, but only if they could play it - and they couldn't, so no point.   Put a proper thirster in a battletome and see how many get bought the day after. Hell, I might even buy me a third.

[Popisdead]

13 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Unless something has changed, FW had nothing to do with Finecast.  I did hear a rumour that they may have some involvement in some of the newer miniatures (for example the resin Black Library miniatures), but they don't appear to be the same Finecast as other miniatures.

I heard FW took over casting the non-plastic models.  Shrugs. doesn't matter.  I don't buy that generation of models.  

[RuneBrush]

17 hours ago, Noserenda said:

I did and its largely correct but Forgeworld and Specialist games as a whole is still run by Tony Cottrell and while they dont talk about him much these days (For various problematic reasons) he still puts his oar in on things, and most of the business decisions still ultimately lead back to him rather than some nebulous part of main GW. 

Not going to get too far into this conversation as it's not the forum and sounds like you've got a fairly firm opinion.  What I will say is I think you're overplaying the influence the various hobby managers (senior or not) have at a business level of the company.  From speaking to people the move to disband the FW AoS & 40k teams and centralise them to the main studio came from "on high".

[Shearl]

I think it’s important to note that Forgeworld had another strength besides making large boutique models, but they could make things that GW couldn’t justify spending resources on. The extreme price of plastic injection molds means GW won’t want to release a product that won’t sell well enough to justify the price of production.

Forgeworld’s resin and silicon molds are cheaper to produce (while more prone to damage and wearing out) which allows them to produce characters, monsters, and conversion kits what they don’t need to sell as high a volume of.

As others have said I believe the reason for Forgeworld’s  AoS line to currently be on life-support is simply a result of neglect from rules writers and marketing. They produced a range of beautiful monsters, yet made it very difficult to include them in armies and when you did their rules were often pretty lackluster. I can’t help but wonder if the fear of people claiming FW was too over powered resulted in them course correcting too far in the opposite direction.

It’s a shame because I own probably too much FW resin, and just recently I’ve had my 20 something fimir warriors, 2 nobles, basilisk, magma dragon, and Tamurkhan relegated to legends. I will say that when I purchased them I knew they weren’t great game wise and that it would be more of a passion project. I have hope that one day FW will figure out what it’s doing with AoS.    

 

[Nullius]

I think piracy is a central problem here, especially where the larger models are concerned. A significant proportion of gamers feel entitled to buy a pirated recast if they think the price for forge world  is too high. (In their opinion) The recasters are very quick. The purpose of the occasionally baroque detail in the plastic large models is that it’s impossible to recast without the original injection-molded technology (Which is proprietary). But large resin models are easy to recast because they are cast in resin in the first place.

[Greybeard86]

On 12/13/2020 at 6:33 AM, Nullius said:

I think piracy is a central problem here, especially where the larger models are concerned. A significant proportion of gamers feel entitled to buy a pirated recast if they think the price for forge world  is too high. (In their opinion) The recasters are very quick. The purpose of the occasionally baroque detail in the plastic large models is that it’s impossible to recast without the original injection-molded technology (Which is proprietary). But large resin models are easy to recast because they are cast in resin in the first place.

At this point, recasters are as easy to buy from (and sometimes more) as GW official products. FW is, IMHO, what truly kicked off the recasting business. Although plastic kits are pricey, if you compare them to the resin recasted prices you don't safe that much, but have to deal with all the resin issues. Now, for FW models, the savings are large and the costs minimal, I am surprised at how much one cannot tell them apart.

I do not know what the solution is, but I know that constantly squatting FW products does not make one want to buy more of the "official" models.

PS - Still salty over the squatting of the Marienburg land ship, for example.

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Greybeard86

[Nullius]

1 hour ago, Greybeard86 said:

At this point, recasters are as easy to buy from (and sometimes more) as GW official products. FW is, IMHO, what truly kicked off the recasting business. Although plastic kits are pricey, if you compare them to the resin recasted prices you don't safe that much, but have to deal with all the resin issues. Now, for FW models, the savings are large and the costs minimal, I am surprised at how much one cannot tell them apart.

I do not know what the solution is, but I know that constantly squatting FW products does not make one want to buy more of the "official" models.

PS - Still salty over the squatting of the Marienburg land ship, for example.

 

I feel you, but unfortunately I don’ see it being cost effective or practical for Forge World to try to compete with recasters. It also must feel damned frustrating and disappointing to the artists responsible for these magnificent hand-sculpted kits. But gamers can be an entitled bunch, and people who would never consider -say- stealing a candy bar or snatching a stranger’s wallet, see no problem at all in stealing from artists at forge world. They believe they have the right to pick the price for someone else’s work.

[sandlemad]

One of the caveats there though is that no one who buys e.g. a recast Marienburg Landship or Tamurkhan or various 30k bits or any other of their many, many discontinued products is stealing from those artists. They can't buy these squatted kits officially, why not buy them from a recaster?

More generally I really can't imagine the impact from recasters is anything close to the impact of the disastrous mismanagement, poor organisation, and lack of support (in rules but even in marketing) around FW in general and AoS FW specifically.

[Kyriakin]

1 hour ago, Nullius said:

I feel you, but unfortunately I don’ see it being cost effective or practical for Forge World to try to compete with recasters. It also must feel damned frustrating and disappointing to the artists responsible for these magnificent hand-sculpted kits. But gamers can be an entitled bunch, and people who would never consider -say- stealing a candy bar or snatching a stranger’s wallet, see no problem at all in stealing from artists at forge world. They believe they have the right to pick the price for someone else’s work.

It's cause and effect, though. Models getting squatted due to recast buyers, or people buying recasts due to squattings? It seems that trust has broken down in both directions.

I have never (knowingly) bought a recast myself, but many of those who spent a fortune on expensive genuine Myrworms, Preytons, Skin Wolves, Carmine Dragons, Dreadmaws, Fimir Warriors, Wolf Rats, (etc.) from ForgeWorld are probably regretting supporting the company now.

Very few want to pay for Forgeworld, as they now have a history of not supporting their models (i.e. no correct KEYWORDS, current state of LoA, etc.) and then suddenly squatting them.

Hell, even Legion of Azgorh players are telling newcomers to not buy a Legion of Azgorh army on their thread in the Chaos section here. Since such projects rely on strong sales numbers for continued support/releases, this self-sabotaging shows how little faith their own customers have in the company's future. They've been sold a pup (unless they are old WHFB players or 9th Age players, who already get/got some value out of the army), and are trying to prevent others from falling into the same trap.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Kyriakin

[Greybeard86]

27 minutes ago, Nullius said:

I feel you, but unfortunately I don’ see it being cost effective or practical for Forge World to try to compete with recasters. It also must feel damned frustrating and disappointing to the artists responsible for these magnificent hand-sculpted kits. But gamers can be an entitled bunch, and people who would never consider -say- stealing a candy bar or snatching a stranger’s wallet, see no problem at all in stealing from artists at forge world. They believe they have the right to pick the price for someone else’s work.

You have the answer below. Squatting models, leaving them unsupported for years, combined with high prices is what turns people away. Sure, some people will buy recast even if the rules and support are amazing. But frankly, as the poster above me says, even those who bought the original models are telling people not to buy certain FW models.

It is painful to see. Chaos dwarves are so much more flavourful than some of the, IMO, super bland options in plastic (cough sigmarines cough).

[Kaleb Daark]

On 12/14/2020 at 1:50 PM, sandlemad said:

One of the caveats there though is that no one who buys e.g. a recast Marienburg Landship or Tamurkhan or various 30k bits or any other of their many, many discontinued products is stealing from those artists. They can't buy these squatted kits officially, why not buy them from a recaster?

More generally I really can't imagine the impact from recasters is anything close to the impact of the disastrous mismanagement, poor organisation, and lack of support (in rules but even in marketing) around FW in general and AoS FW specifically.

Quality.  Put simply quality.

How good a company is, is not measured when theings are great, but how they handle things when you have a problem.

With the pound being what it is, a recast doesn't really save you very much money, sure 50%if you're lucky? - but that's before you've hit import duty  and tax if youre unfortunate enough to get slammed with it.

Now, you go and buy say a model that's still in production, and its brittle and breaks or its just plain pants.  You call FW and they replace or swap out depending on size - of course, of you like so many others ring and say my bloodthirsters axe is broken, can you send me another, they will tell you to do one as the recreate skarbrand blag is well tried, but if it's genuinely bad, you'll get a replacement.  And that's before we  get into the quality of the resins used.  I've seen a recast mammoth for instance. Now that's a solid slug of resin and the FW one was a damn sight nicer to work with than some of the horrible recast stuff I've seen.

Recast stuff won't allow you to do that, you pay your money and pray its ok.

 

However... I agree with you that FW has been so neglected as an opportunity by main business that it's almost comedy in its effect.

I'd love to see a built to order on some classic FW stuff, the landship and the mammoth being a prime example.  Release a made to order like GW do, and a nice set of rules for it that are valid in match play and open the cash till and let the money roll in.  Honestly if there was great integration between the two houses, then dear lord, they could open up a glorious new revenue stream for next to no investment.  If nothing else it would help to give them some sort of idea about what is popular and give the main business an idea for how to move the narrative and model lines.  Remember the demigryph was out in FW first as the mount of Theodore Bruckner - there's a model for a new free guild named character right there.

The IP argument is of course valid, but I don't think that IP is a real driving force, as we all know that everyone out there has a "not GW name" equivalent for anything they do, and unless you play at warhammer world then pretty much anything goes on the table from whoever.

I do think with the passing of Alan Bligh, FW has lost a lot of direction and vision - he was a very cohesive force in driving their narrative and roadmap.  I feel that all this time on, it's still a ship with a great potential that still doesn't know with conviction what rudder to fit.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Kaleb Daark

[novakai]

it is weird though since Forgeworld 40k is way better supported then AoS forgeworld, they got their own  compendium and quite a few things have good enough rules that people field them (Ork warboss on bike and Adeptus Custodes tanks to name a few)

they even get some steady releases from HH like those Adeptus custodes jetpack units that was release from last year, though i think the last true 40k release was the Necron walker or the AD mech Drill transport that where like two years ago.

[PlasticCraic]

On 12/15/2020 at 12:53 AM, Kyriakin said:

I have never (knowingly) bought a recast myself, but many of those who spent a fortune on expensive genuine Myrworms, Preytons, Skin Wolves, Carmine Dragons, Dreadmaws, Fimir Warriors, Wolf Rats, (etc.) from ForgeWorld are probably regretting supporting the company now.

Speaking as someone who was naive enough to buy loads of legit FW in good faith (including Fimir, Magma Dragon and Dread Maw) - can confirm.

[Greybeard86]

5 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

Speaking as someone who was naive enough to buy loads of legit FW in good faith (including Fimir, Magma Dragon and Dread Maw) - can confirm.

Preach! Discontinuing models is in the top 3 worse things GW can do to consumers.

[Clan's Cynic]

I'd rather see Forge World go back to producing smaller, alternate-part releases. Things like the Cadian respirators, the male/female Stormcast head packs, alternate sculpts of characters, that sort of thing.

The problem is that these days any Forge World model feels like it's on borrowed time, no matter how new, because the rules will either have an expiry date or they're just utter rubbish compared to their mainline equivalent.  When a model is cheap, it's one thing to shrug but when you're paying premium prices of what's already a premium product, people expect longevity and not a shrug of the shoulder.

Edited December 16, 2020 by Clan's Cynic

[TheCovenLord]

It is definitely sad to see such beautiful sculpts like Tamurkhan, Carmine Dragon, Fimir, Dreadmaw languish for so many years with awful rules then suddenly be swept away. Always was a tough sell to get consumers to buy overpriced underperforming minis but I also understand that they had to toe the line and not be so OP that it took away from the rest of the lines or cause a form of Pay for exclusive rights to win situation. But they definitely could have used more love. 

[Nullius]

On 12/14/2020 at 8:50 AM, sandlemad said:

One of the caveats there though is that no one who buys e.g. a recast Marienburg Landship or Tamurkhan or various 30k bits or any other of their many, many discontinued products is stealing from those artists. They can't buy these squatted kits officially, why not buy them from a recaster?

More generally I really can't imagine the impact from recasters is anything close to the impact of the disastrous mismanagement, poor organisation, and lack of support (in rules but even in marketing) around FW in general and AoS FW specifically.

The reason these kits go off market to begin with is because they are recast within weeks of release. The recasters prefer to take advantage of the free (for them) marketing around the time of a model’s release.  This allows them to maximize their opportunity to parasitize the work of others and the better harness the grotesque sense of entitlement that many gamers have. 
 

(also, “Disastrous Mismanagement” may be a bit hyperbolic, particularly for a company that outperformed most of the London Stock Exchange last quarter and has never failed to pay dividends in it’s decades of existence and has never lost control of their IP or been sold to a large conglomerate).

 

The piracy is a primary issue, especially where a niche within a niche hobby is concerned. I don’t suppose you’ve asked yourself why large figures in plastic post end-times invariably have loads of tiny thin bits on them (lightning, smoke...the entire Nighthaunt range, etc), and why the end times stuff was loaded with recessed details of skulls.  it’s, in part, to thwart recasters and 3D printing with details that foul their process. 

if you design a product to net a profit (after paying artists’ salaries and benefits for full time work, plus studio space, plus writers, tools, networks, leases on buildings, leases of warehouse storage, manufacturing, quality control, insurance, middle managers, etc etc etc) and your expected sales are cut by 10% loss to recasters (the actual number is likely higher), then you are likely to miss your mark. There is little point in continuing to produce these products or to even bother storing kits in your warehouse. 
 

discontinued kits are an exception, but the discontinuation of kits is connected to recasting to begin with. 

[Greybeard86]

Well, GW margins are public information. In any case, blaming on recast ers the demise of those iconic models seems a stretch. Bad rules, uncertainty over updates, high prices, or a history of squashing models are likely reasons why some of the evil entitled gamers turn to recasters. 

I mean, it is not like knock offs are exclusive to the miniatures market. Here they are a very natural reaction to prices that are, to a large extent, the result of excessive market concentration. 

The success of GW is bittersweet for hobbiests, since it does keep the game alive and thriving, and creates a certain common home (easy to find games, common interest to large numbers, those are positive externalities) but it also fuels some of the “bad practices” by GW (rules inconsistencies to fuel sales, prices hikes, planned obsolescence of models, , aggressive market domination strategies against competitors). From a selfish standpoint, I want GW to do well, and the hobby to be popular, but I do not want that success to be capitalized by GW too much. I am not a huge fan of recasts, I’d prefer legit companies to enter the fray, but someone is needed to keep GW on their toes.

[Nullius]

9 hours ago, Greybeard86 said:

Well, GW margins are public information. In any case, blaming on recast ers the demise of those iconic models seems a stretch. Bad rules, uncertainty over updates, high prices, or a history of squashing models are likely reasons why some of the evil entitled gamers turn to recasters. 

I mean, it is not like knock offs are exclusive to the miniatures market. Here they are a very natural reaction to prices that are, to a large extent, the result of excessive market concentration. 

The success of GW is bittersweet for hobbiests, since it does keep the game alive and thriving, and creates a certain common home (easy to find games, common interest to large numbers, those are positive externalities) but it also fuels some of the “bad practices” by GW (rules inconsistencies to fuel sales, prices hikes, planned obsolescence of models, , aggressive market domination strategies against competitors). From a selfish standpoint, I want GW to do well, and the hobby to be popular, but I do not want that success to be capitalized by GW too much. I am not a huge fan of recasts, I’d prefer legit companies to enter the fray, but someone is needed to keep GW on their toes.

I agree with much of what you’re saying, but the simple fact when it comes to using price as a justification for stealing is that no matter what the price point it, recasters will be able to beat it.

they can do so because they didn’t incur the expense of employing the artists or writers and do not need to rent the warehouse space. They didn’t establish the IP, or the publishing house, and they didn’t pay for the marketing or the digital infrastructure.

the percentage by which they undercut the prices of forge world is a relatively small chunk of change when it comes to small models like Necromunda bounty Hunters or 30k characters or whatever. Who really cares about 20% off a $30 model? But when the model is hundreds of dollars that discount becomes very appealing.

the large models in the main plastic line sidestep this issue by designing the models in such a way that can only be recreated with proprietary injection-molded plastic technology, and that proprietary tech is safely kept in the factories in the UK and NOT overseas where it would be stolen and replicated. (The intentional difficulty of recasting gives us the ubiquitous fiddly bits and unusual weight distribution  that almost all the large kits now have). Forge world kits ,by definition, are designed to be easy to cast in resin. That fact will ultimately doom all the large kits, excepting the gigantic kits like Warlord Titans whose buyers aren’t very price sensitive. It’s simply not worth the shelf space, let alone the artists’ time. Pity, as I love the big hand-sculpted kits.

[EccentricCircle]

1 hour ago, Nullius said:

I agree with much of what you’re saying, but the simple fact when it comes to using price as a justification for stealing is that no matter what the price point it, recasters will be able to beat it.

they can do so because they didn’t incur the expense of employing the artists or writers and do not need to rent the warehouse space. They didn’t establish the IP, or the publishing house, and they didn’t pay for the marketing or the digital infrastructure.

the percentage by which they undercut the prices of forge world is a relatively small chunk of change when it comes to small models like Necromunda bounty Hunters or 30k characters or whatever. Who really cares about 20% off a $30 model? But when the model is hundreds of dollars that discount becomes very appealing.

the large models in the main plastic line sidestep this issue by designing the models in such a way that can only be recreated with proprietary injection-molded plastic technology, and that proprietary tech is safely kept in the factories in the UK and NOT overseas where it would be stolen and replicated. (The intentional difficulty of recasting gives us the ubiquitous fiddly bits and unusual weight distribution  that almost all the large kits now have). Forge world kits ,by definition, are designed to be easy to cast in resin. That fact will ultimately doom all the large kits, excepting the gigantic kits like Warlord Titans whose buyers aren’t very price sensitive. It’s simply not worth the shelf space, let alone the artists’ time. Pity, as I love the big hand-sculpted kits.

This is fascinating. I'd never considered that the elements of modern models which you describe might be anti-counterfeiting measures, but now that you've pointed it out, it makes so much sense! No wonder they are in love with very thin strands and tiny little details these days!