The Rumour Thread

[madmac]

27 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

I think this follows newest trend though. An update for a army comes normally with one new model and a book. Maggotkin had not received anything since their book (which was older then IDK) and got the same treatment. I feel like book updates with now follow this trend.

I mean it's a trend yes, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing or can't be complained about. It's basically a figleaf towards pretending your army is getting any attention, because GW has figured out that it looks better if a new book comes out with at least "a" new model attached, and they've already basically run the whole endless spell/terrain thing into the ground.

Deepkin specifically aren't as bad off as many other AoS 1st edition armies, but still they basically didn't get anything for three years, and getting the model+book treatment now signals they very likely won't get anything for another three...six+ years is not a trivial amount of time for anyone with a normal human lifespan, really. Wargaming is its own niche and all, but sometimes I have to genuinely wonder how many people who buy an army when it comes out end up selling it off and quitting the hobby altogether before it ever gets a major update.

For Fyreslayers, again, they have one of the smallest rosters in the entire game, they were added in (IIRC) 2016, so after three years they got an oven and endless prayers, another three years wait for one no-effort hero and then what, hoping that after nine years and three editions, next time in 2025 maybe the hopes of Fyreslayer players won't be crushed?

Not really complaining about any army in particular here, these are just examples but I think it's worth remembering that the time-scales involved in this hobby are kinda insane when you take a step back, and that anyone's favorite army getting basically a pass-over for any given edition is a not-insignificant blow. Few people can say for certainty that they'll be around to see their army get updated, except for Space Marine/Stormcast players.

[madmac]

1 minute ago, Noserenda said:

I mean literally any faction can support a full book if you are using FS as your standard, its more a case of SHOULD they

Id expect every new book to get a vanguard asap, its just supply is utter chaos behind the scenes right now and its bumping stuff all over the place, and repacks like that are much easier to shift.

Yes, they absolutely should. Getting shoved into a book with other armies is not a boon to an army you play. It just means less playtesting, less options, less lore and less effort was put into your army than it received previously with good odds of a bunch of previously good stuff getting nerfed because it's too strong in combination with some other armies model you never wanted to use, or because it intrudes on some other soup factions perceived niche, etc. 

There's a strong undertone of "armies I don't like should get souped and they'll love it. Armies I like should never, ever be souped." going around these days, you almost never see people who play that army advocating for it.

[EccentricCircle]

5 minutes ago, madmac said:

 Wargaming is its own niche and all, but sometimes I have to genuinely wonder how many people who buy an army when it comes out end up selling it off and quitting the hobby altogether before it ever gets a major update.

I think the thing to remember is that those of us who care about updates, metas and the upcoming release schedule at all aren't the bulk of the customer base. We talk loudest on the internet, but there are a lot of people who only play and collect casually. Around here, you get the impression that if you are a fan of an army, you buy all the units soon after release (or at least enough for 2k points) and then sit around waiting for more shiny things. However, there are a lot of folks, young people in particular, who don't have that kind of disposable income. They might play with basically a couple of boxes, and maybe get a bigger monster at christmas. For casual players there is no rush to update, and a single hero model, who can more or less be bought at a whim, is probably a pretty nice addition. For that audience, Fyreslayers aren't a ridiculous lineup.

A lot of folks wont even know how old the book is, let alone be hampering for an update.

[AaronWilson]

13 minutes ago, madmac said:

I mean it's a trend yes, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing or can't be complained about. It's basically a figleaf towards pretending your army is getting any attention, because GW has figured out that it looks better if a new book comes out with at least "a" new model attached, and they've already basically run the whole endless spell/terrain thing into the ground.

Deepkin specifically aren't as bad off as many other AoS 1st edition armies, but still they basically didn't get anything for three years, and getting the model+book treatment now signals they very likely won't get anything for another three...six+ years is not a trivial amount of time for anyone with a normal human lifespan, really. Wargaming is its own niche and all, but sometimes I have to genuinely wonder how many people who buy an army when it comes out end up selling it off and quitting the hobby altogether before it ever gets a major update.

For Fyreslayers, again, they have one of the smallest rosters in the entire game, they were added in (IIRC) 2016, so after three years they got an oven and endless prayers, another three years wait for one no-effort hero and then what, hoping that after nine years and three editions, next time in 2025 maybe the hopes of Fyreslayer players won't be crushed?

Not really complaining about any army in particular here, these are just examples but I think it's worth remembering that the time-scales involved in this hobby are kinda insane when you take a step back, and that anyone's favorite army getting basically a pass-over for any given edition is a not-insignificant blow. Few people can say for certainty that they'll be around to see their army get updated, except for Space Marine/Stormcast players.

I didn't say people should or shouldn't complain I was just saying that it's probably to be expected. 

I'm personally not fussed, an updated rulebook is exciting enough as you get to try new lists, new warscrolls, new synergies, etc. I'd rather they not add 5/6 different warscrolls to every book every time it gets updated. AoS is wide enough already, refining is what in it I'd prefer. 

[madmac]

3 minutes ago, AaronWilson said:

I didn't say people should or shouldn't complain I was just saying that it's probably to be expected. 

I'm personally not fussed, an updated rulebook is exciting enough as you get to try new lists, new warscrolls, new synergies, etc. I'd rather they not add 5/6 different warscrolls to every book every time it gets updated. AoS is wide enough already, refining is what in it I'd prefer. 

Eh, for me it depends a lot on the army. For something like Nurgle, or say Mawtribes sure they're pretty much fine. Could use some resin models replaced and there's things you could do with them but it's not a huge deal if they have to wait a bit.

So many of the "new" AoS armies though, just feel like budding flowers that might never bloom. So much unrealized potential, which makes getting left as a skeleton force for years and years that much more frustrating.

You can only do so much with books for these armies, also. Deepkin almost couldn't get a new battletome that's as good as the one they have now+BR. Sure some things might get shifted around slightly but it's probably not a huge upset, and if it is that might not be a good thing.

Armies like Fyreslayers and Ironjawz even more so. It almost doesn't matter what they do with them ruleswise. Fyreslayers went from Vulkites good, HGB Bad, to Vulkites Bad, HGB Good, resetting the clock to Vulkite spam isn't going to excite anyone. Ironjawz flip between leaning Ardboyz or Brutes depending on the edition but it makes zero real difference to how the army plays at the end of the day.

[AaronWilson]

1 minute ago, madmac said:

Eh, for me it depends a lot on the army. For something like Nurgle, or say Mawtribes sure they're pretty much fine. Could use some resin models replaced and there's things you could do with them but it's not a huge deal if they have to wait a bit.

So many of the "new" AoS armies though, just feel like budding flowers that might never bloom. So much unrealized potential, which makes getting left as a skeleton force for years and years that much more frustrating.

You can only do so much with books for these armies, also. Deepkin almost couldn't get a new battletome that's as good as the one they have now+BR. Sure some things might get shifted around slightly but it's probably not a huge upset, and if it is that might not be a good thing.

Armies like Fyreslayers and Ironjawz even more so. It almost doesn't matter what they do with them ruleswise. Fyreslayers went from Vulkites good, HGB Bad, to Vulkites Bad, HGB Good, resetting the clock to Vulkite spam isn't going to excite anyone. Ironjawz flip between leaning Ardboyz or Brutes depending on the edition but it makes zero real difference to how the army plays at the end of the day.

I think this is a case of lets agree to disagree my friend

 

[JackStreicher]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

Just curious what kind of unit is it IDK players would like. Looking at all the other factions right now, IDK seems to have one of the most varied rosters with all new and nice models, like far far far ahead of armies like Fyreslayers, nighthaunt, bonesplitterz, ironjawz etc etc. 

IDK got unique ranged and melee infantry, got 2 variants of super useful "cavalry", "heavy cavalry" shark units, a great behemoth and the 2 eidolon variants as well as the mounted king hero and multiple foot heroes. That seems to be a pretty complete roster, only things I can see lacking to have everything is artellery and a generic hero on behemoth sort of thing, although the eidolons sort of fill that role already, and I do not think artellery fits IDK really. I think it would be better to just have as many of them viable in the rules as possible, as that is really one of the most well rounded rosters out there of all new models.

Short answer: A tentacle-monster or a mounted hero on eel/allopex, heavy infantry.

simply more crazy deep sea beasts.

[HollowHills]

1 hour ago, madmac said:

I mean it's a trend yes, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing or can't be complained about. It's basically a figleaf towards pretending your army is getting any attention, because GW has figured out that it looks better if a new book comes out with at least "a" new model attached, and they've already basically run the whole endless spell/terrain thing into the ground.

Deepkin specifically aren't as bad off as many other AoS 1st edition armies, but still they basically didn't get anything for three years, and getting the model+book treatment now signals they very likely won't get anything for another three...six+ years is not a trivial amount of time for anyone with a normal human lifespan, really. Wargaming is its own niche and all, but sometimes I have to genuinely wonder how many people who buy an army when it comes out end up selling it off and quitting the hobby altogether before it ever gets a major update.

For Fyreslayers, again, they have one of the smallest rosters in the entire game, they were added in (IIRC) 2016, so after three years they got an oven and endless prayers, another three years wait for one no-effort hero and then what, hoping that after nine years and three editions, next time in 2025 maybe the hopes of Fyreslayer players won't be crushed?

Not really complaining about any army in particular here, these are just examples but I think it's worth remembering that the time-scales involved in this hobby are kinda insane when you take a step back, and that anyone's favorite army getting basically a pass-over for any given edition is a not-insignificant blow. Few people can say for certainty that they'll be around to see their army get updated, except for Space Marine/Stormcast players.

This is perfect 👌. It captures my sentiment exactly.

The other point I would add is that both heroes, as mentioned previously, are extremely bland. The Fyreslayers get another foot hero that on the table will be indistinguishable from their other heroes. The Idoneth get a foot slogging support hero, again not very exciting looking, when the army already has foot slogging support heroes that rarely see play.

It would be nice to see all of the "new" armies designed for aos start to get roster expansion. Even if it's only a single new unit and a hero, like how khorne got the hounds and the dog hero.

[sandlemad]

Nurgle really could have done with more though. They’re not in the FS range of a small range of largely identical minis and they’re a working faction but e.g. Nurgle mortals are just two units and a plethora of assorted special characters. They’re a smaller and less diverse range than Khorne, Tzeentch and Slaanesh. In many ways they are closer to the likes of FS, IJ or IDK.

[KingBrodd]

I do feel for FS players if there is indeed not anything more coming this Edition.* I know it's not as bad as WHFB days but if it's your Faction, especially if you only play one, that gets ignored it may as well be. 

6 years is a hell of a ****** long time to wait for minis and the thought of waiting another 3? Nah mate.

 

*Fingers and Ur-Runes crossed there will be another unit revealed.

[Kronos]

3 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

I think the thing to remember is that those of us who care about updates, metas and the upcoming release schedule at all aren't the bulk of the customer base. We talk loudest on the internet, but there are a lot of people who only play and collect casually. Around here, you get the impression that if you are a fan of an army, you buy all the units soon after release (or at least enough for 2k points) and then sit around waiting for more shiny things. However, there are a lot of folks, young people in particular, who don't have that kind of disposable income. They might play with basically a couple of boxes, and maybe get a bigger monster at christmas. For casual players there is no rush to update, and a single hero model, who can more or less be bought at a whim, is probably a pretty nice addition. For that audience, Fyreslayers aren't a ridiculous lineup.

A lot of folks wont even know how old the book is, let alone be hampering for an update.

 

Self indulged post warning*
I’d like to add in how much agree with this. I’ve been collecting for nearly 25 years. Mostly for building and collecting. Sometimes I might even paint, but haven’t happily painted for nearly 2 years 😂.

Love reading Lore (like bestiary entries and even some extended short background (Tamurkhan, Monstrous arcanum and Malign sorcerer, along with FW HH books as best examples) . 
 

I couldn’t care less about rules, or rather gameplay, because even as a collector I love comparing unit stats and reading about special rules. I normal just glaze over as soon as I start seeing points balance, errata, faq talk. But it’s no less interesting to read. Went to school game night many many moons ago. The crowd really put me off gaming, the attitude, the snarkyness, the condescending statements. As a kid I’d just shut up, as an adult now, I’m happy not to pit myself into that situation. Give me some binge worthy tv, dog by my foot, and a couple hours of kitbashing please. 
 

I’ll splurge on a big kit every couple of years (big resin monster) or create a really elite army with bespoke bits. But I just couldn’t see myself ever trying to build and paint a full on army. It’s taken me nearly 6 years just to build up a monstrous Horde, Throgg isn’t even in lore anymore. But I’m happy sitting in this little Niche of the hobby. And chat about the cool things coming out. Occasionally bashing that odd bad model (never gonna get over Ventris’ hair).

 

As you were*

On a side note, and bringing up warhammer + again, 2 Chaos models is quite the statement thinking about it. I feel GW has wanted to truly embrace it’s love for evil and Chaos. Maybe that’s their new poster boy now. Chaos. StD and beasts, and Chaos Marines with Primarch Daddies will soon be their new loves as Chaos in both universes drives for a bigger push. 

 

 

[Ratboy genius]

Didn't std and chaos space Marines just get a big narrative push last edition? Theyve always been the baddy poster boys 

 

Even in the necron focused 9th edition chaos was front and center on the cover at least 

[JackStreicher]

10 minutes ago, Ratboy genius said:

Didn't std and chaos space Marines just get a big narrative push last edition? Theyve always been the baddy poster boys 

 

They might be in Lore however ingame both armies do not represent what they are supposed to be AT ALL. Well, at least some consistency with Chaos

Edited January 6, 2022 by JackStreicher

[Kaleb Daark]

2 minutes ago, JackStreicher said:

They might be in Lore however ingame both armies do not represent what they are supposed to be AT ALL. Well, at least some consistency with Chaos

Nonsense man.

ask any beasts player and he will tell you its just like the lore..

put lots of beast down… they get slaughtered to a hoof.

just like the lore.

[AngryPanda]

4 hours ago, EccentricCircle said:

I think the thing to remember is that those of us who care about updates, metas and the upcoming release schedule at all aren't the bulk of the customer base. We talk loudest on the internet, but there are a lot of people who only play and collect casually. Around here, you get the impression that if you are a fan of an army, you buy all the units soon after release (or at least enough for 2k points) and then sit around waiting for more shiny things. However, there are a lot of folks, young people in particular, who don't have that kind of disposable income. They might play with basically a couple of boxes, and maybe get a bigger monster at christmas. For casual players there is no rush to update, and a single hero model, who can more or less be bought at a whim, is probably a pretty nice addition. For that audience, Fyreslayers aren't a ridiculous lineup.

A lot of folks wont even know how old the book is, let alone be hampering for an update.

By your description I’m more of a casual player. I like to collect an army over a period of time because of school commitments, and when I have the opportunity I paint what I already have. Plus, I like to take my time with what I paint by carefully basing and layering, as opposed to washing over a layer of contrast paints and callIng it a day, which also means that I don’t purchase as often because I like also finish my projects before buying more. Occasionally I might buy something on sale or if a battlebox is released, but that’s pretty much it. I have both a Slaanesh and Khorne collection that I’ve been gradually building for a couple of years, and until school is over, I probably won’t have enough time to finish them. 
 

Something to also consider is that a Warhammer army is more akin to a fixed asset, meaning that once you’ve purchased a model, it usually stays in value for a number of years and doesn’t need to be traded/replaced often. For example, I have ten Painbringers in my HoS army, and it’s likely I won’t need to replace them anytime soon b/c they’ll probably still be in style for the next 10+ years or so. 

[Ratboy genius]

1 hour ago, JackStreicher said:

They might be in Lore however ingame both armies do not represent what they are supposed to be AT ALL. Well, at least some consistency with Chaos

Let's be real, very few armies represent what they're supposed to be in totality on the tabletop

 

At most some 30% if you're lucky

[Ganigumo]

5 hours ago, madmac said:

Yes, they absolutely should. Getting shoved into a book with other armies is not a boon to an army you play. It just means less playtesting, less options, less lore and less effort was put into your army than it received previously with good odds of a bunch of previously good stuff getting nerfed because it's too strong in combination with some other armies model you never wanted to use, or because it intrudes on some other soup factions perceived niche, etc. 

There's a strong undertone of "armies I don't like should get souped and they'll love it. Armies I like should never, ever be souped." going around these days, you almost never see people who play that army advocating for it.

I've got a KO army and am all for a combined dwarf book, I was also quite happy with warclans in 2e (Which I also play.) I don't consider these soup books though, since they still retain their unique allegiances and playstyles. Cities of sigmar is a soup book, and so is ogor mawtribes.

Just because armies share a book doesn't necessarily mean they have less options, or less effort put into the book. If that's the case (like with bonesplitterz in the 3e warclans book) it's not because the book was "souped" but because the developers/designers failed. A book like that obviously requires more playtest work than a book with a single allegiance, and not adapting to those needs is a failure on GWs part, not a result of it being a soup book. 

[Carnelian]

I really wouldn't mind if the trend was a single unit and a new book for each army in each edition - if only it was sometimes an actual new battleline unit or new cavalry/warmachine/monster etc and not mostly just a little foot hero each time

 

[Morglum StormBasha]

I’d actually question the idea that each faction should even get a tome each edition. Idk and Maggotkin never got a second Ed tome and actually I think that’s fine if the books is well written when it initially dropped (eg Maggotkin).

I don’t want to see books every 3 years if there’s no reason for them. 5 is fine for books when there’s nothing incompatible about their mechanics and the edition. 
 

as for new model releases I think it really depends on if expanded factions is more fun than brand new ones. Third is probably the first time gw could consider not launching 2 brand new concepts each year and could probably go down to one if they wanted as the games matured 

[Noserenda]

7 hours ago, madmac said:

Yes, they absolutely should. Getting shoved into a book with other armies is not a boon to an army you play. It just means less playtesting, less options, less lore and less effort was put into your army than it received previously with good odds of a bunch of previously good stuff getting nerfed because it's too strong in combination with some other armies model you never wanted to use, or because it intrudes on some other soup factions perceived niche, etc. 

There's a strong undertone of "armies I don't like should get souped and they'll love it. Armies I like should never, ever be souped." going around these days, you almost never see people who play that army advocating for it.

Bit of an incorrect assumption there about timescales, as i understand it they often have plenty of time to work on things for a book, reams gets tossed or delayed based on other factors and the plans for models, they might have been working on FS on and off the whole time whether or not they get souped, they got two books with a pitiful range, what makes you think they would be losing out much more than column inches in a joint book anyway?

Personally i wouldnt want them anywhere near the proper dwarf armies but i dont think its some crippling insult if it did happen, especially as one of the alternatives is just nothing at all, come back in a few years.

[KingBrodd]

1 hour ago, Carnelian said:

I really wouldn't mind if the trend was a single unit and a new book for each army in each edition - if only it was sometimes an actual new battleline unit or new cavalry/warmachine/monster etc and not mostly just a little foot hero each time

 

I agree. If Idoneth and Fyreslayers both had a new unit in that box and available separately people would be loving it. A new Battleline or Behemoth/War Machine as a single model for most releases is far better than a new Hero. Troop choices IMO are the most important minis in a Faction. 

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

Is it possible that/is there precedence for factions getting the new hero in a battlebox treatment AND a new unit, released normally and outside of the battlebox? Ie. could there still be more to come for the IDK and FS and perhaps GW haven’t shown us yet in the interest of extending the hype cycle, given the current global circumstances? 

[Magnusaur]

I want to say no. There's been cases were a battlebox included multiple new units for an army that then received more stuff later or in parallel, like with Genestealer Cults and Ossiarchs, but when it comes to single-model releases it's a one-and-done type of deal.

Wait, I suppose Sisters got a bunch of stuff alongside the Palantine that was included in Piety and Pain? And Daughters of Khaine got endless spells alongside the Ironscale Medusa. Maybe?

[Fellman]

Paint paint paint
Blight bligth bligth!

[woolf]

one other thing on this about army updates, how many of us actually play exclusively one army? has there been any polls on how many armies ppl typically collect?

I still consider myself fairly new to the hobby (about 2.5yrs) and already have started 3... and it's the same with others in my group. And I would assume I will add to that number over the coming years so it's not really a huge issue (for me at least) if a particular one goes without update for quite a while... still so much more models available than time to paint 😅