Oh god this article...

[lare2]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Heck these days cut out social drinking and that can be a £5-20 saving easily per week (and possibly more for some). 

No kidding. Haven't really drank in a while now and the money I've saved is crazy. My old man used to say "if you don't drink or smoke you'll be fine"... beginning to realise he wasn't kidding. 

[calcysimon]

I would say that 99% of people saying that this is an expensive hobby go out 3 times a week spending 50% of their incomes or buying some useful things as new phone, ipods ecc or go abroad each year 

I can bet on it

[Mosquito onthe TenthFloor]

Bit of a mass generalisation in play there. You know, people can have money and still consider something to be expensive? They can even buy something and think its expensive.

[SirPug]

13 hours ago, HollowHills said:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/jan/21/heroin-for-middle-class-nerds-how-warhammer-took-over-gaming-games-workshop 

Heroin seriously? Middle class? Coupled with comments about ruining your social life...

This guy seems ashamed of liking the hobby. 

People shouldn't take articles about nerd culture too seriously, expecially when written by a person disconnected from that demographic. 

Also middle class? I make waaay under middle class income and still play this game,  sure it might be month of noodles and porridge when i buy more that i should but still.

They should consider following smoking can cost 5euros a day once you get it going and going to a bar can cost you 80-200euros for one evening of "fun". 

I think when one sees this as hobby and compares it to other expensive hobbies or activities, it wont look that expensive in the end.

[JPjr]

I think focusing on the economic aspect of 'middle class' is probably a slight red herring here, whilst the game undeniably does involve a fairly sizeable buy-in (both monetarily and time-wise) which it would be odd to ignore, I'd say that in terms of this article at least, middle-class is being used as more of a cultural shorthand, which again you can dispute fore sure but as the term is commonly used (in the UK and especially in Guardian reading circles (of which hands up, that's me)) it has certainly some resonance.

It's tricky, I'd say 'middle class' has a lot of odd (sometimes subtle) connotations in the UK that I'm not sure translates exactly elsewhere and stand for and mean all kinds of different things depending on whom you're talking to.

[Nos]

1 hour ago, calcysimon said:

I would say that 99% of people saying that this is an expensive hobby go out 3 times a week spending 50% of their incomes or buying some useful things as new phone, ipods ecc or go abroad each year 

I can bet on it

Strawmen are always appealing to bet on I guess 

[Nos]

2 hours ago, JPjr said:

I think focusing on the economic aspect of 'middle class' is probably a slight red herring here, whilst the game undeniably does involve a fairly sizeable buy-in (both in monetarily and time-wise) which it would be odd to ignore, I'd say that in terms of this article at least, middle-class is being used as more of a cultural shorthand, which again you can dispute fore sure but as the term is commonly used (in the UK that is) it has certainly some resonance.

It's tricky, I'd say 'middle class' has a lot of odd (sometimes subtle) connotations in the UK that I'm not sure translates exactly elsewhere and stand for and mean all kinds of different things depending on whom you're talking to.

Yeah GW is middle class in the UK for the same reason that cooking for yourself is primarily middle class or reading is middle class or being engaged in politics is primarily middle class or travelling is middle class. They’re dependent on an inheritance of privelege and education which make things which *should* be innate for everyone readily apparent. The lower class population are largely deprived of  the resources and investment that allow them to discover or enjoy those things in the same way sadly.

GW originally sprang up in a time when it was perfectly feasible to be working class and still have literature and libraries and folklore form part of the culture you were exposed to. But that died at the sane time that GW found it’s voice, sadly. The thing that killed that tradition was what inspired the Fiction of Grim Dark in Warhammer in fact, as the article states. 

[HollowHills]

I think it just rubbed me the wrong way, the tone came across like those articles from the late noughties about games like world of warcraft. Where they'd talk about how it destroyed young people's lives etc. 

The guardian also ran an article a few months ago about a a lady who spends money on warhammer to the expense of her children. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/sep/15/spend-games-warhammer

It seems to imply that warhammer is somehow sinister in encouraging people to spend beyond their means. 

I also find it ridiculous to make comments about how it's an antisocial hobby even though the game require you to spend hours playing with other people in person. 

Spending £20 going to the cinema, a main course in a restaurant or on drinks is perfectly normal. But £20 on a box of models is disturbed. I mean look at the price of actual kids toys these days, a lot of Lego sets push the £100 mark. 

It reminds me of a time playing with a few good friends at the local and a girl came over asking if she could interview us for her media degree. We said to go ahead and she began to ask us idiotic questions like "do you feel it helps to develop your social skills" and generally treating us as if we were complete basement dwelling pariahs despite us being working responsible adults with partners and families. 

[JackStreicher]

22 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

t reminds me of a time playing with a few good friends at the local and a girl came over asking if she could interview us for her media degree. We said to go ahead and she began to ask us idiotic questions like "do you feel it helps to develop your social skills" and generally treating us as if we were complete basement dwelling pariahs despite us being working responsible adults with partners and families. 

But you are aware that her hypothesis might have been that warganers do not suffer from the things she asked, right?

if you don‘t know the entire motivation of the questions (which you shouldn‘t since it would influence the answer) all questions are „stupid“.

[Ollie Grimwood]

On the subject of being middle class, discussing a Guardian article about a Wargaming company on a website dedicated to a Wargame is probably pretty darn middle class. I know the middle class get a lot of stick from stand up comedians but we’re ok really and those comedians tend to be Top university  grads anyhow 😉

[Mosquito onthe TenthFloor]

33 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I think it just rubbed me the wrong way, the tone came across like those articles from the late noughties about games like world of warcraft. Where they'd talk about how it destroyed young people's lives etc. 

The guardian also ran an article a few months ago about a a lady who spends money on warhammer to the expense of her children. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/sep/15/spend-games-warhammer

It seems to imply that warhammer is somehow sinister in encouraging people to spend beyond their means. 

I also find it ridiculous to make comments about how it's an antisocial hobby even though the game require you to spend hours playing with other people in person. 

Spending £20 going to the cinema, a main course in a restaurant or on drinks is perfectly normal. But £20 on a box of models is disturbed. I mean look at the price of actual kids toys these days, a lot of Lego sets push the £100 mark. 

It reminds me of a time playing with a few good friends at the local and a girl came over asking if she could interview us for her media degree. We said to go ahead and she began to ask us idiotic questions like "do you feel it helps to develop your social skills" and generally treating us as if we were complete basement dwelling pariahs despite us being working responsible adults with partners and families. 

You should have been around during the satanic panic. AND the video nasty era!

[Nos]

44 minutes ago, HollowHills said:

I think it just rubbed me the wrong way, the tone came across like those articles from the late noughties about games like world of warcraft. Where they'd talk about how it destroyed young people's lives etc. 

The guardian also ran an article a few months ago about a a lady who spends money on warhammer to the expense of her children. https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/sep/15/spend-games-warhammer

It seems to imply that warhammer is somehow sinister in encouraging people to spend beyond their means. 

I also find it ridiculous to make comments about how it's an antisocial hobby even though the game require you to spend hours playing with other people in person. 

Spending £20 going to the cinema, a main course in a restaurant or on drinks is perfectly normal. But £20 on a box of models is disturbed. I mean look at the price of actual kids toys these days, a lot of Lego sets push the £100 mark. 

It reminds me of a time playing with a few good friends at the local and a girl came over asking if she could interview us for her media degree. We said to go ahead and she began to ask us idiotic questions like "do you feel it helps to develop your social skills" and generally treating us as if we were complete basement dwelling pariahs despite us being working responsible adults with partners and families. 

That’s an interview transcript in which the woman in question herself states that she spends a lot of money on Warhammer and that her kids also get everything they need and most of what they want.

The only person making her “sound like “ anything is herself because hers is the only voice in the piece, and I think it’s a perculiar reading of what she’s saying to take away the implication that her hobby affects her children’s well-being when she expressly states that it dosent. She also says that she has £2000 in savings and puts £300 aside a month on top of all this and she invests her time helping the homeless. To be honest it sounds like she’s got everything very nicely balanced and is a model example of a good citizen and mother who also plays Warhammer. 

I can’t actually begin to think how anyone could read that as remotely offensive or stigmatising in any respect, honestly.

[PlasticCraic]

I thought I recognised that line about "More is more"...

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-17274186

 

[AGPO]

It's mostly not too bad, but the thing that gets me about it is that at 'nerd' communities are doing lots of good work demonstrating that there are plenty of well adjusted people outside the anti-social neckbeard stereotype who can enjoy these hobbies, the writer is reinforcing lazy stereotypes about geeks being social pariahs. I remember during my brief spell working in a school asking a couple of my students I saw at GW if they'd be interested in a school club. Their response was that they were worried about social repercussions and even bullying if other students found out about their hobby. Even amongst adults, there are plenty of hobbyists who conceal their hobby from friends for fear of the same judgement they got as kids, or keep it off their social media for fear of putting off prospective employers.

[Mosquito onthe TenthFloor]

Well of course! This is the hobby that dare not speak its name!

[Captain Marius]

Interesting article but completely misses the mark with the reason for GWs success. Three years ago we didnt have GW social media, twitch or warhammer community - since their launch its been a textbook demonstration of the power of digital consumer engagement. Hardly "White Dwarf is the only way they communicate with customers"!

Also plastic crack would have been way more appropriate than the heroin comment.

Also maybe the Guardian/news media in general could maybe learn something from GW - i dont see any articles on Warhammer Community ending begging for money 😁

Not a bad article tbough, the heart was just about in the right place.

[schwabbele]

Hmm the article isn‘t so bad actually - very positive in fact - or at least i interpret it that way

[valenswift]

I thought the article was ok and seemed to be more about promoting Keiron Gillen's new comic more than anything else. Having read Gillen from his days as a PC Gamer journalist and through his comic book career, that isn't such a bad thing.

[RuneBrush]

I read this yesterday and overall it's a pretty solid and current article.  It's got the usual dramatic heading and odd sentence flung in - but it's still a much better read than the counter article Spikey Bits wrote!

Let's try to not go too far down the road of of "I'm middle class" (a la Two Ronnies), it's a hugely subjective system, a few years back there was a study that proposed changing it from 3 classes to 7 (BBC website has a class calculator on - again it's very subjective!)

[Jamopower]

21 hours ago, AGPO said:

It's mostly not too bad, but the thing that gets me about it is that at 'nerd' communities are doing lots of good work demonstrating that there are plenty of well adjusted people outside the anti-social neckbeard stereotype who can enjoy these hobbies, the writer is reinforcing lazy stereotypes about geeks being social pariahs.

I didn't read it as that it would make the gamers social pariahs, more so that it takes a lot of time. If you're painting models 4-5 hours per week and having a game of 2-4 hours it takes a pretty reasonable chunk out of a free time available to a person with other commitments in his life. At least this is true for me. As a parent of a small kid, who still wants to have his gaming "fix", I see my friends who don't play miniature games much less than I would like. As with the comparison, guys who shoot heroin are usually also pretty social bunch of people, but not too much outside of their own social sphere

[AaronWilson]

Article doesn't seem too bad. 

[EccentricCircle]

3 hours ago, Jamopower said:

I didn't read it as that it would make the gamers social pariahs, more so that it takes a lot of time. If you're painting models 4-5 hours per week and having a game of 2-4 hours it takes a pretty reasonable chunk out of a free time available to a person with other commitments in his life. At least this is true for me. As a parent of a small kid, who still wants to have his gaming "fix", I see my friends who don't play miniature games much less than I would like. As with the comparison, guys who shoot heroin are usually also pretty social bunch of people, but not too much outside of their own social sphere

Agreed, I also felt that the implication was that if you are gaming, when do you have time to do all the going to the pub? I think he could have done a better job of making it clear that this is a social hobby as well, but it doesn't come across like that. Personally I tend to think that hanging out around a gaming table is far more social than going to the pub, because most of the people won't be getting progressively more drunk as the night goes on. I know a lot of people who would disagree though...

[Kirjava13]

1 hour ago, EccentricCircle said:

I also felt that the implication was that if you are gaming, when do you have time to do all the going to the pub?

If you're collecting Warhammer, when can you afford to do all the going to the pub? 😅

[PlasticCraic]

13 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Let's try to not go too far down the road of of "I'm middle class" (a la Two Ronnies), it's a hugely subjective system, a few years back there was a study that proposed changing it from 3 classes to 7 (BBC website has a class calculator on - again it's very subjective!)

Yeah I find that part really interesting...as someone who grew up in the UK but lives in Australia, I am very aware of the different connotations of "middle class" in different countries. 

I've seen responses to that aspect ranging from "Middle Class??? You don't have to be driving a Rolls Royce and holiday on the Moon to afford Warhammer!" through to "Middle Class??? People eating canned spaghetti for tea can't afford this stuff!"

[TheAntsAreBack]

Gnome Battletome confirmed though😲