How would you 'fix' Destruction in the lore?

[Enoby]

It seems like many people are unhappy with where Destruction stands in the lore - that is, they are relatively ignored and do very little of importance. In addition, they are all very one dimensional in that they just like to fight/eat, aren't all too clever, and don't really make long lasting alliances. They seem almost like the red shirts of AoS; they exist as a tertiary threat to Death and Chaos, and really just act as a nuisance that gets in the way of the main fight. 

 

While GW could do a grand waagh campaign, I'm unsure if that would fix the core issues of being a one dimensional faction. Sure, they'd be a threat for a while, but they don't really have a grand goal so it's not likely that it'd have a major impact on the lore that wasn't just 'loadz moar fitez'. 

 

How would you improve Destruction in the lore? Are you happy with where they are currently? 

[Skreech Verminking]

1 minute ago, xking said:

There is nothing wrong with destruction in the lore, they are all the followers of Gorkamorka and their worship of him manifest in different ways.  Gorkamorka will get his time in the light most likely after Nagash. I also think we should not create head-canon, as it might spread. We don't need another " Malerion fused with dead dragon" situation.   

 

By the way, Malerion did NOT fuse with his dead dragon, people.(I still encounter this)

Wait Malekiths dragon died?

[amysrevenge]

I really think all it needs is more pages.  Spend the narrative time on it, and it is fine.  

[Mohojoe]

I would like to see a more I'm depth look at the factions. Wanting to fight all the time is great for a background faction but if they are to be a big player we need to see characters, religion, mythos and all the boring bits in between. Although short there was a great small story in the hammerhal audio books where a group of stormcast save a band of barbarians from an orruk hunt. Not much was particularly said but detail went into the voices and the descriptions. Their attitude had a drunken swagger that struck a chord more than the usual idiotic brutes and attention was paid to their evolution.

 

However I'm also aware that there are some strong minded fans with their own firm views of what an ork/orruk should be and some level of that needs to be continued. 

[michu]

As a true fan of Destruction (my Skaven army notwithstanding) I only need a good scrap to be happy.

But honestly, I think that Destruction is in good place in lore and only bad in rules. I know that possible "Gordrakk's Great Waaagh!" storyline seems too simple for someone, but look at the 40k "War of the Beast". Underestimating Greenskinz, be it Orcs, Orks or Orruks, is very dangerous. And I believe that BL authors are capable of creating interesting Destruction character even mind-bended on fighting (again look at 40k - Ghazghkull, Nazdreg and classic "Deff Skwadron")

[amysrevenge]

I think back to Grom the Paunch and Gorbad Ironclaw and Grimgor Ironhide.  Those guys cut meaningful swaths across the Old World.

[Icegoat]

Orruk will soon disappear from aos completely anyhow. The grots are practically gone now. The narrative will always focus on the SCE and just like the space marines they will always be able to smash orks anytime. One of the best interpretation of orcs as enemies in warhammer was in the books about sigmars early life. They were a dire and dangerous threat. The tribes expected to die fighting them. Now who cares there are no normal humans in the fluff just SCE and their mighty bashing super powers. It's awful. 

[Skreech Verminking]

2 minutes ago, Mohojoe said:

I would like to see a more I'm depth look at the factions. Wanting to fight all the time is great for a background faction but if they are to be a big player we need to see characters, religion, mythos and all the boring bits in between. Although short there was a great small story in the hammerhal audio books where a group of stormcast save a band of barbarians from an orruk hunt. Not much was particularly said but detail went into the voices and the descriptions. Their attitude had a drunken swagger that struck a chord more than the usual idiotic brutes and attention was paid to their evolution.

 

However I'm also aware that there are some strong minded fans with their own firm views of what an ork/orruk should be and some level of that needs to be continued. 

I’m Fully with you.

to get a Battletome consisting of Grots,Ogres and Orruks would literally just mean the discontinuation of the grand allegiance destruction.

it would be probably a better idea in making like only Grots, Orruks and Ogre battletomes.

it would also work fluffwise rather good.

[Skreech Verminking]

5 minutes ago, Icegoat said:

Orruk will soon disappear from aos completely anyhow. The grots are practically gone now. The narrative will always focus on the SCE and just like the space marines they will always be able to smash orks anytime. One of the best interpretation of orcs as enemies in warhammer was in the books about sigmars early life. They were a dire and dangerous threat. The tribes expected to die fighting them. Now who cares there are no normal humans in the fluff just SCE and their mighty bashing super powers. It's awful. 

Well should in some distant future only Stormcast exist in the age of Sigmar.

 thanGw complety #^}€~€|!!,£}€ up.

it would probably also be the end of Gw.

only one faction existing in the whole game. Well not sure how long Gw would exist than must be a lot of money lost.

also not sure if there are too many people interested In playing Sigmarines Vs. sigmarines.

sounds a little bit boring.

[novakai]

7 minutes ago, michu said:

As a true fan of Destruction (my Skaven army notwithstanding) I only need a good scrap to be happy.

But honestly, I think that Destruction is in good place in lore and only bad in rules. I know that possible "Gordrakk's Great Waaagh!" storyline seems too simple for someone, but look at the 40k "War of the Beast". Underestimating Greenskinz, be it Orcs, Orks or Orruks, is very dangerous. And I believe that BL authors are capable of creating interesting Destruction character even mind-bended on fighting (again look at 40k - Ghazghkull, Nazdreg and classic "Deff Skwadron")

yeah the Background lore on Destruction faction are really good and flavorful, they just need more presence in the current timeframe then being redshirts or waiting for their time to unleash the Mega-Waaaagh!. they have like only two named characters at the moment, they need more of them and them actually doing something.

Funny note I do like how Sigmar and GorkaMorka meeting for the first time was pretty much a rehash of the Emperor meeting Leman Russ in 40k.

[ManlyMuppet88]

Gotta agree that there’s nothing really wrong with the fluff, there just needs to be more.

[Shankelton]

I'm guessing, since Age of Sigmar really likes to lean on the idea that the gods walk among us, is that GW will push forward with Gorkamorka as the focal point of the story and the idea of the great Waagh... Which admittedly, I think a lot of people are totally fine with.

Personally, I'm more then fine with the idea of the forces of destruction being the innumerable hordes that populate the wild places of the world. Grots, at least the moonclan, being the hordes that bubble up from the cracks and crevices to wash over the unsuspecting. They occupy an interesting spot for me. Underdogs at first, but once you realize they repay the treatment to those unfortunate enough to be under them 10x. You just can't help but hate them lol.

Greenskins roaming the realms in warbands and tribes of different flavors, occasionally coming together to pose serious threats to the other powers in the realm. Ogors being the "human" aspect of destruction I see so many people hoping for. Tribes unconcerned with politics and planning, simply travelling the lands in nomadic herds taking what they want, when they want.

You don't need to be a schemer with destruction, at least not in the sense of death, order or chaos.  Gorkamorka doesn't need to have a grandiose plan to remake the world in his image. The focus should instead be on warlords within destruction. Characters like Skarsnik, or Grimgor from the old world. They had plans, the former especially, but it didn't have to be grandiose. You didn't want to see either of them sitting on a throne with their plans realized like Nagash or Sigmar, their plans were ultimately doomed to failure given the inherent nature of destruction. But they were still fun to follow, and they gave interesting ways to play the other forces off of them.

Karak Eight Peaks would have been far more boring, and the dwarves as well, without grots to play off them.

[Kronos]

Too small a pantheon for such a varied alliance, persinally. It wprls for Nagash and co, and even then I’d love to see Vampires fully return, or least Aborash and Ushoran, and Mlekior siding once again with Nags. 

 

Id like to see more more being done in terms of fluff for ogors and Monnclan, to set them apart, sure they could form some uneasy alliances with Orruks and othe Gorkamork, but Id like to see a butcher or tyrant, like Skrag, try to bring back the great Maw, or. Monnclan phrophet of the Bad Moon, spider gods etc. Just think more flavour like Order and Chaos is due.

[Zambo]

If you want a character that can add depth and intriguing to destruction this is the chap 

bring him back as the prophet of mork I’m sure the games workshop writers can come up with a suitable story line, hopefully involving ridding the world of them damned rats ? 

[TheMuphinMan]

Just have destruction have the same place in the lore as Grimgor's army did. Find a crossroad that a lot of armies go through to invade their neighbors and have orruks set up shop there. For the grots, skaven tunnels could easily end up in moonclan caves, and spiderfang poachers could ****** off sylvaneth. Ogres could be mercs hired to wreck supply lines/caches. Grimgor also horded artifacts because he new people would fight him to take control of those artifacts. So you could have gordrak make a crude statue of himself bejeweled with things that sigmar/nagash/etc need. Ogres could be driven by money/food, grots by power/influence and orruks by a desire to paint targets on themselves.

[JPjr]

A few suggestions, some ******, some crapper...

1) Firstly, just maybe there's no fixing needed and not everything needs to be part of some all encompassing cosmic game. Orks and Ogres just exist in the wilds, plains and mountains and do what they do. Sometimes they accidentally stumble into big universe shaking events but they're just semi-nomadic tribes that fight and eat and fight and eat and whilst they can be a threat to isolated settlements they're not an existential problem. They're fun to play and that's all that matters, no one needs a trilogy of orc books filled with painful sub cockney noises.

2) As you say some great Waagh, it's old but gold. Maybe one that threatens to overrun the Free Cities of Ghur. Seems the most obvious but also doesn't really move them forward, so depends on how much that matters to you. When we were discussing what to do with the various destruction factions a bit ago I was talking about some kind of Ogor Khan arising, and that might be more interesting than just a big Ork chief I guess and leaves the more flavourful sub factions to do their own thing.

3) Or don't stress their big role in the universe but still each faction more of a purpose and them a defined enemy.

Then things like Beastclaw are cool and thematic, and just interesting to be in the background I'd say. 

It falls back on old fantasy tropes but for Grots the obvious one here would be something like Dwarfs setting out to reclaim their mountain strongholds which during the age of chaos have now been taken over by Moonclan tribes or something like that.  You could easily create a good narrative campaign out of it that could also throw some light on the various Duardin factions too. I could imagine a cool Dispossessed or KO vs. Moonclan box set, with a campaign focussed on underground cave fighting.

Then with Orks the levelling up that IronJawz have experienced from centuries of fighting chaos continues and as well as getting bigger and meaner they get smarter, still very orky but less comedy, dumb brutes. At the same time push Bonesplitterz in the other direction, make them more and more religious, wilder and weirder, lots of big beasts to ride and control. Send them on a quest, a green jihad, to reunite Gork & Mork which naturally brings them into conflict with someone.

OR...

What could be more thematic of Destruction than CIVIL WAR with Bonesplitterz angry that IronJawz are getting too hooomany what with their fancy armour and the like.  So evolved orcs vs savage orcs in a battle for the soul of orcdom. 

[Zambo]

Im envisaging a race of heavily bearded mountain men that wear nothing but bear skins and exist entirely on chewing tobacco 

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

No need to fix just needs more.  The stuff in the BCR,  Ironjawz  and Bonesplitterz Battletomes is really good and allows for much more depth for characters from those factions.  Fury of Gork is good and the other appearances from Destruction in Black Libary stuff are good there’s just not enough of them.   Orruks, Grots and Ogors are much more intelligent and nuanced than  their WFB counterparts  

Destruction is quite a useful plot device as well as a balancing factor, if one of the factions gets too powerful the forces of destruction are going to become much more interested in them.  

For expanding their narrative I think they should continue along the line of the Orks with them having a destinct culture by be quite alien from humans. 

[flamingwalnut]

One thing I like the most about Destruction is how wonderfully potent some primal forces can be. I love the idea of a shaman, chanting into the wind, cackling as castle walls just crumble around him, or a natural disaster just crashes into an Order city. I want to see elementals, crazy storms, massive hordes of chanting maniacs, and unstoppable hunks of earth and fire and elemental fury just stampede into everything held dear by Civilization.

One idea I would LOVE to see finished is the Incarnate Elementals from Forge World. They did Fire and Beasts, and then they went OOP, never to be finished. I want to see how each Realm gets PRIMAL, how the very magic and foundation of the Realms take root and rampage. I want to see what a crazed Destruction Shaman of Shadow looks like, or Metal, or Life. And I want to see them surprise everyone who doubted them.

For story, while I do agree with more stories is always a good start, and adding some interesting characters, both new and old, but Destruction can still have a great place in the "cosmic" level of things. Great Waagh, sure, but I want the Realms to start to thrash. The Necroquake just ripped open magic all over the place across the Mortal Realms. I want to see that continue to grow. Sure, the Orruks and Grots and Ogors go nuts and ransack the place, but the LAND needs to join them.

And for a big ole twist, what I would LOVE to see, is that Azyr itself gets attacked. NOT by Gordrak bashing in a Realmgate, but by the sheer anger and madness of the land itself awakens Azyr to do battle. Stormcast seeking a cure for their reforging problems and fighting Death, everyone on the guard for Chaos both without and within, but then, when they feel guarded and safe, does the very nature they have tried to time bite them. I want Sigmar to fight mountains and cities to be swallowed by the earth they thought was stable and safe. Get creative, get crazy, let it go all out.

[Dirtnaps]

I think all it really needs is more fleshing out, to me it seems like the faction with the least backstory currently which can be easily fixed with new battletomes and some novels written with a focus on destruction as the antagonists sort of like in the Soul Wars, Spear of Shadows and Shadespire (really like the parts with Gurzag Ironskull in it and wish there were more) novels how we follow along with the heroes as well as the main antagonist for the story.

Hell they could do like a Thanquol thing and have a short series of books built off this one awesome character if they really wanted and that would add a nice bit of depth to the lore and be a hell of a lot better if they make a model off it than just dumping one on the webstore (I see you random stormcast characters).

[PlasticCraic]

I think there are a few themes coming through that are at face value conflicting, but I actually agree with all of them.

 

“The Destruction lore is fine, we just need more of it”

The lore from the Battletomes and books is truly excellent.  I love the Everwinter as something Beastclaw simultaneously harness and flee from.  I love the snippets in there of the Frostlord looking to find Gordrakk and join his Waaagh.  I love their history as mercenaries (which is great for multiplayer games, because you always have a hook for teaming up with ANYONE).

Bonesplitterz as a Faith Militant, with this primal magic they can barely control or understand, but ocassionally catch lucky and harness to explosive effect. 

Ironjawz, having a great time throughout the Age of Chaos and getting bigger and stronger throughout.  The snippet of Zogbakk Realmrippa in the GH18 Batallion (again pointing to Gordrakk’s Mighty Waaagh! as the next phase).

Whenever I explain to people that the Firestorm ability of rolling twice and picking a Strategem comes from Stoneklaw Gutstompa listening to advice from 2 severed heads he carries around with him on poles, and picking one to follow, they love it.

Even the GA Destruction book is outstanding.  Seriously, read the story of Firebellies worshipping Gorkamorka in his aspect of the Sun Eater, it’s a great hook for a faction. 

When GW focuses on Destruction, they do a great job.  We just need more.  So much more. 

Literally the only Black Library book I’m aware of that is even ostensibly Destruction-focussed is Fury of Gork, which ultimately turns out to be the Stormcast ‘n’ Chaos show yet again.  Which brings me to the next theme...

 

“Destruction are just Red Shirts”

Unfortunately, this is true whenever you look at their presence outside of their own books and Battletomes.  Their presence in the wider setting is always the immediate threat, to be cleaned up before the grown ups get to work on the serious business:

Spoiler

 

For example in City of Secrets, the Orruk tribe exists as a distraction so Tzeentch can launch his attack on the City with the Guards away

In the Malign Portents short stories, we had Ironjawz as stooges to make Idoneth look good, Spiderfang as stooges to make Death look good, and Beastclaw as stooges to make Death look good, and Moonclan as stooges to make Death look good. 

 

It really starts to get wearying after a while, and I think we are at / well beyond that point now.

 

What next?

More focus on Destruction in the setting has been needed for several years now.  I’m sure it will come and that GW will do a great job.  What that means specifically is up for grabs.

I would be in the camp that is happy with Gordrakk’s Mighty Waaagh!, uniting all the Megabosses in the fight to end all fights.  That would be fine with me, and is the most likely next step imo based on the hints we’ve seen.

All I would ask is that if we go down that path, they leave their mark.  Maybe raze a Free City or two to the ground, so we can take them seriously going forward.  Maybe the novels could mention refugees from those Cities appearing in other Cities afterwards, so someone who has done a beautiful themed army is still able to use it.

There are some great ideas in here.  I like the stuff about Destruction as a force of nature.

There are great threads in the Battletomes that could be developed further.

And my own personal suggestion is the Terrorists or Freedom Fighters paradox.  We know that GA: Order is essentially fascist.  “Empire Builders and colonists” tend to end up on the wrong side of history:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/05/12/your-intro-to-the-mortal-realms-may-12gw-homepage-post-4/

I would like to see a storyline based around Destruction tribes who were forced off their land by settlers in the Free Cities, rising up and rebelling to push out the invaders.  Maybe some Troggoths had their swamps drained to create farming land for example.  This could totally tie in with Gordrakk’s Waagh and give some extra motivation for how it is coming together and why.

This would also push the theme of “Order doesn’t mean good guys” which GW seem keen to progress, and it would be a great way to create reader / player sympathy with the non-human factions and their motivations.

 

Anyway.  Thanks for posting @Enoby, this is a great thread.  Very interesting, and I like a lot of what people have been coming up with.

[Wraith01]

I think they are fine lore wise. Just need more factions, preferably new ones that fit the AoS aesthetic. 

[Durnaxe]

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

And my own personal suggestion is the Terrorists or Freedom Fighters paradox.  We know that GA: Order is essentially fascist.  “Empire Builders and colonists” tend to end up on the wrong side of history:

Destruction should neither be Freedom Fighters or Terrorists. Both fight with a political agenda in mind and Orruks, Grots, Troggoths, and Ogors shouldn't be the political type. Why should I, say as an Orruk, want with politics when I can just smash someone in da 'ead to make em do what I wants? Or attack a city for a good fight? Races that are made and live for fighting shouldn't need a reason to fight, other then its fun.
 Also that last sentence is confusing to me, is that supposed to be a real world jab or something? Seems like trying to stir the pot for no reason.
 

3 hours ago, PlasticCraic said:

I would like to see a storyline based around Destruction tribes who were forced off their land by settlers in the Free Cities, rising up and rebelling to push out the invaders.  Maybe some Troggoths had their swamps drained to create farming land for example.  This could totally tie in with Gordrakk’s Waagh and give some extra motivation for how it is coming together and why.

This would also push the theme of “Order doesn’t mean good guys” which GW seem keen to progress, and it would be a great way to create reader / player sympathy with the non-human factions and their motivations.

I really hate this idea that seems to crop up in all fiction. "Lets humanize the monster races if we want people to like them!" "Why?" "Because da feels!" No, I want my monsters to stay monsters. I find it really uninteresting and boring if the only way they could write a destruction novel was to "humanize" their race of choice. Last time I checked, Tyranids are an awesome concept, Orks in 40k are an awesome concept, and Zerg from starcraft WERE an awesome concept before starcraft 2 (at which point the whole "humanzing" happened) and became extremely watered down. 
Also last I checked DoK was order and they are like, one step away from being Khorne like. Oh and Idoneth like to steal souls. Not exactly what I would call a "good guy". Just that GW likes to push their "sigmarines" like their smurfs.

As for story, I would like to see Ogors bring back the Great Maw, making Orruks mad and having a story line about "which god is the right one" for destruction.
Maybe some stories of Bonesplittaz battling Chaos by hunting down their beasts they had planned to use for some nefarious purposes. Hunting chimeras and jabberslyths seems like a fun time for a tribe of them savage orruks.
I like the Idea of Dwarfs trying to reclaim mountain holes filled with fungoid and spider grots.

[Luke82]

All that’s needed to bring the Destruction faction into a better place is to let them actually Destroy some stuff. There’s nothing wrong with being a perennial foil to the heroes, as long as you’re an actual threat. Let the Stormcast actually take a beating from a waaaagh and bingo, instant narrative credibility.

The orcs, ogres, and goblins should be a terrifying prospect, an enemy that cannot be bargained with or persuaded away, the war for its own sake is their goal. There is no choice but to stand and fight them head on.

[Barkanaut]

I've been saying for a long time destruction is too one dimensional of a faction. Every single faction is some minor variety of gork and mork and orks. Death you can have all sorts of undead and different after life concepts. Chaos same thing there is a lot of room for interpretation of following g and spreading chaos. Order is even more free than these. Destruction is so narrowly focused on Gork and Mork is has no room for any other types of destruction. There is no room for mindless strange automatons who are set to destroy stuff or strange cthulhu esque factions of mysterious horror destruction. No room for quasi ordered forms of destruction like imagine if giants were smart in the setting and had a strong city but believed they and their god gork and mork were the only right way so they seek to destroy lesser races and put themselves on top of the heap. 

You can't do any of these right now under the current destruction god because gork and mork is a bad god for this sort of setting. He was a joke god that worked well in fantasy but its clear he isn't working here he should be a major deity but demoted from THE god of destruction so something far more encompassing can take his place. That's how you fix destruction and no one will care until massive and I mean huge swathes of lore update happen to destruction because most people find them way too limited. 

I say this with pain as I even have BCR and Ironjaws models even if the lore and fluff is kinda of samey. I want to eventually see much more interesting variety fall into the destruction GA. That or rename it to Hordes of Destruction or something since its such a misnomer.