AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Rizara]

So i am thinking about getting some KO now that I can finally field the balloon guys as troops.   So i put together this list but it feels rather small to me.  So i figured I would ask you guys to see what you think.

Its a 2k list, and haven't really decided on which skyport yet, but might have to go with the hate magic one to get some dispells in there.   Its exactly 2k, as well. 

General is the new flying Edrinmaster.

2 units of skywardens (minimum units)

2 units of edrinriggers (minimum units)

2 gunhaulers

1 ironclad

1 unit of 10 thunderers (not sure on loadout here)

Battalion,  Gunhaulers skywing

Khemist or Arknaughts ( same cost, just not sure if the hero would be more useful to buff thunderers or the unit to get more bodies)

Edrinmaster on foot, or a navigator. ( Edrinmaster comes in start collecting so it would be the budget friendly option, plus extra heal for ships).

 

Again depending on which skyport I take, some other units could become battle line,, but I only got 3 airships, and 4 units of hitchhikers so the entire army can't go in the air.   I really would like 2-3 heroes at least because I always seem to get those missions that require heroes to hold objectives.     I also was thinking of another list that got 6 airships, but it requires taking the skyports to make frigates or gunhaulers battleline but could be any skyport really.    That list had no battalions, an ironclad, 2 frigates, 3 gunhaulers, the balloon general, and 2 units of edrinriggers, and left me with 120 points for another character or a unit of thunders/edrinriggers.  It seemed more like a fun hey i got airships list but not much to hold objectives.    

They just feel super elite in number of models, but with all the shooting/mobility could be quite effective. 

 

[5kaven5lave]

Also have a list, this one depends on the ships actually doing some work and the Rigger healing being good, but here we go. Should be thematic at least:

Zilfin

Balloon Hero 220 (maybe general - extra rigger heals trait, Zilfin +1 to hit artefact)

Navigator 100 (rule of cool) (maybe general - +3” ship move, auto dispel artefact)

2x6 Riggers 2x200

10 Thunderers 240

10 Arkanaut 90

2x Frigates 500

2x Gunhaulers 300

(3x traits tbc)

Escort Wing 140

1990

 

So it’d be 6 riggers per Frigate keeping it healed up and they could hitch when they moved. Balloon hero to oversee and boost the heals. Other stuff to shoot. Optimistic hoping that their shooting along with the boat shooting can take stuff down with the assorted buffs. Might give it a whirl at the weekend once I have the book. 

Edited January 5, 2020 by 5kaven5lave

[ArkanautDadmiral]

7 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

Ofc I'll play with everythin that this book gave us but until it come up I can only build theories about working/not working mechanics. If you can tell something constructive I will read it with pleasure, but if you think that you have any rights to attack me personally then you free to gtfo. 

To be fair I agree with his point. It’s all compounded by a few irrationally negative players across these forums at the moment though.

Also, you’ve been spelling unit names wrong constantly. At first I thought they were typos but they’ve been consistent. Is English your second language? Are they called Gunhowlers, Ironclade’s or Alchemists in your native language? Fair dos if so, but if not, why? Maybe there’s a good reason for it.

But If someone is going to be looking out for a constructive, knowledgeable voice on here, I think the guy who doesn’t spell his own units names wrong while complaining probably isn’t the one they’re going to listen to.

This new book has fixed so many glaring issues, I.e the need to convert all those Skyhooks which was a huge barrier to entry to the army. More battle line options. Great fluffy and thematic ideas and rules. Pretty much every unit is useful.

But you’re sat here complaining about points before playing a game. Hell, points can change twice a year. You may only have to wait until July to see some adjustments anyway, is it really that catastrophic? At least have some fun with the new book until then.

Personally I don’t want to table my opponents army turn one. I want to know I’ve played a game. So far from the reviews, the book looks fun, I don’t know why anyone would ask for more than that.

[cofaxest]

4 minutes ago, ArmyOfGrodd said:

To be fair I agree with his point. It’s all compounded by a few irrationally negative players across these forums at the moment though.

Also, you’ve been spelling unit names wrong constantly. At first I thought they were typos but they’ve been consistent. Is English your second language? Are they called Gunhowlers, Ironclade’s or Alchemists in your native language? Fair dos if so, but if not, why? Maybe there’s a good reason for it.

But If someone is going to be looking out for a constructive, knowledgeable voice on here, I think the guy who doesn’t spell his own units names wrong while complaining probably isn’t the one they’re going to listen to.

This new book has fixed so many glaring issues, I.e the need to convert all those Skyhooks which was a huge barrier to entry to the army. More battle line options. Great fluffy and thematic ideas and rules. Pretty much every unit is useful.

But you’re sat here complaining about points before playing a game. Hell, points can change twice a year. You may only have to wait until July to see some adjustments anyway, is it really that catastrophic? At least have some fun with the new book until then.

Personally I don’t want to table my opponents army turn one. I want to know I’ve played a game. So far from the reviews, the book looks fun, I don’t know why anyone would ask for more than that.

1) Yes English is my second language and at the same time I'm writing on my phone and constantly rewrite typos so sometimes it looks like a mess.

2) I can start to playtest only after 10th of january (probably will play against SCE, Goblins, Greenskinz and NH)  so right now I try to imagine how our faction works and play. Is that a crime? 

3) Yes I'm negative about alot of things even before playtesting, but from my perspective other people are unreasonably positive without playtesting. In my country we say: "Be ready for the worst, but hope for the best". 

 

 

[michu]

3 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

3) Yes I'm negative about alot of things even before playtesting, but from my perspective other people are unreasonably positive without playtesting. In my country we say: "Be ready for the worst, but hope for the best". 

Because many people doesn't care if it's not Slaanesh-level BT, they just want a BT that is fun to play (and Slaanesh is not). Mid-tier is good for local tournaments.

And I think that saying is not good for any hobby. I have better - "its just a hobby,  focus on the positives, it's better for mental health".

[Reuben Parker]

53 minutes ago, michu said:

But they do that. That playtesters group is called "The Faithful" and @Mengel Miniatures belongs to them. 

That’s good to know but it does still then beg the question how things like stacking command abilities etc are getting missed. Or if you look at OBR no one even had to play a game to know petrifex elite was miles away the best (plus save trait and some of the best artifact and command ability giving plus save and plus rend to the same sub faction)  

Im not having a big rant I was even originally defending GW saying they test but obviously not correctly. 

Overall I like the new books coming out. I play IJ and was arguing with people that obviously the new ardfist wasn’t supposed to be spammed and it took several months for it to be faq. GW need to understand the style of players out there and make sure they write tighter wording especially on not making command abilities spam and other abilities not stackable. 

[michu]

The answer is that there are probably some communication issues. When Iron Hands got their supplement they have some really broken rule and GW said that playtesters knew about that but that information didn't reach desingers before printing.

[stratigo]

9 hours ago, FatherTurin said:

Since the warscrolls aren't updated yet, I’m going off assumptions here, but isn’t an Ironclad with 10 rifle armed thunderers, an admiral, and some endringger/Skywardens hitching along for a screen an abjectly terrifying prospect that can delete almost anything?

It can sit on the back table edge to avoid a first turn charge, then fly high and just straight up murder things.  It’s a LOT of points, to be sure, but my other army is Ogors, and it seems like everything from a full block of Gluttons to a FLoSH (without the ethereal amulet) dies to that HARD.

Sure, basic Arkanauts are looking pretty meh right now, but they are a 90 point unit of objective grabbers now, not a giant blob protecting a chemist and some skyhooks.  
 

Also, a Gunhauler yanking some balloon troops backfield to mess around with casters, support, or artillery seems awesome.

What I’m seeing so far is that KO are now pretty much the undisputed kings of movement in a game where movement is king.  We can apply pressure from unpredictable threat vectors and do it without spending any kind of resource or needing any kind of terrain or spell.  At the same time we have the tools to gimp some truly terrifying first turn or otherwise early game chargers (navigator vs FEC or Maw Krushas), drop a comet on someone’s head with a Khemist, shoot the enemy in the face, and all while the Arkanaut company are sitting on objectives with 4+ sometimes rerollable save.

In short, we are an army of distraction carnifexes, and so far I’m more than ok with that.

If you are dedicating 1000 points to shoting something, that something really should get deleted. But your strike force is legit 1000 points of stuff. If all it kills is, like, a 300 point monster before the enemy army slams your into your face, you kinda got the raw end of that trade

9 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

@stratigo 

listen, I play an army called the legion of Azgorh. They have an infantry block designed for blocking enemy melee so my guns can shoot them to death. 

These armours troops are 9 points per model and have a 4 up save. I am positive that if I can block charges sufficiently enough to win games with them that KO can with arkanauts and boats.

Ive played bad armies. I played S2D before the new book and they are currently my largest collection (I may have more points in space marines it’s pretty close). I’ve played armies who get nearly nothing in support (Azgorh). Looking at this book I think the tools are there. Here is what’s I think

due to the fast nature of close combat armies we will need to focus on a few things to be competitive. 

1) for shooty armies our ability to continue to shoot and avoid being tied down is key. Things that keep us doing that will be priority for these lists. (Perhaps spell in a bottle emerald lifeswarm and some Endrinriggers or the character who heals)

2) for melee armies I think allies are the key. We have a port that allows us to take one of the best grindy anvils in the game. They have orange hair. Promise them a share of the gold and go win games 

3) for objectives arkanauts are decent battleline. We have lower damage then melee armies because they strike twice a round. Don’t let them do that. We have 9 inch guns so we should be able to put more models in a fight. Chokepoints are your friends. If we hit first we can beat a few people in a fair fight. But use of gold shares is key. 

4) mobility, our playstyle May evolve to one that doesn’t care about objectives in the early game. You could mess up some opponents that set up in a spread out formation. Figure out what flank you can devastate and fight a portion of your enemies army your whole army. Play like dark Eldar and never have a fair fight. You will need a plan for taking back objectives mid game but this can easily put an enemy in disarray and make them castle up in later games. A castled up enemy has less board presence. Try to play against that.

honestly the tools are there, this is a mid tier army from my first few looks. You won’t be beating the big boys but the mid tiers will be worried

 

The thing is, like, everyone's a big boy now. KO is a rarity in the new AoS Battletomes of not being drastically stronger than its previous iteration or breaking some part of the game. KO's kinda stuck in the same pit as ogres, but to me it feels even worse since my alternative is like, even a not optimized CoS list feeling just much better a choice. 

4 hours ago, Kramer said:

I love how this always seems to happen. Not saying you were one of them, and this isn’t meant at your personally . But the overal consensus before this Saturday has been for that KO were bottom of the pile, absolute garbage tier and needed a complete rework... 

now there is a book on their way and suddenly Everybody knows where will end up in a tier list without playing. It’s definitely not high enough and the changes suck. 
this happened for every army that I played and saw updated in the last years. Even with the daughters of Khaine release the first few posts were riddled with complaints that the army wouldn’t amount to much because everything was too fragile, not mobile enough etc. And GW  only wanted to make money on the witch  elves Because the snake ladies weren’t any good. That turned out very different  

if KO good get to the top table last round on cancon before I’m very excited to see what the truly good players will achieve now. When the book truly drops I’m really excited to hear how things work for you all. But until then I won’t believe any estimates on where it will fall. 

 

for my two cents on the whole balance thing. I’d rather not GW keep releasing broken armies. Rather fix the broken ones. I’m happy this army doesn’t look to further the broken tome Cold War. 

I mean, some good players kept assuring me that KO made good anti meta lists, though I never saw KO actually winning against the real tournament meta lists, so I always took that with a grain of salt. The main issue is the gulf between the best armies and the rest armies is so vast it is hard to really make a tier list that isn't essentially "Slaanesh, skaven, that one build of FEC before they nerfed it too many times, OBR probably, CoS maybe, Hey look greenskins too, DoK. And then everyone else". Also StD have a really dumb set of interactions that annihilate anything attacking one of their units, but I imagine that's an FAQ target shortly. But maybe not, Slaanesh lived a while not getting touched.

 

The quality of the new battletomes have constantly got me thinking that GW's approach to balance is to Syndrome it. "If everything is broken, then nothing is" but then a mawtribes or sylvaneth or, now, KO come out and they feel in line with the older pre 2.0 faction releases. Which means they just get stomped by the people who have the broken nonsense. And it is like "Well I guess I have another two or three years before I can hope to beat someone playing slaanesh. Or skaven. Or....." you get it?

3 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

Actually balance wise I think AOS is doin pretty good if that’s what people are complaining about 

It really isn't

2 hours ago, TheadTheOgorSlayer said:

No the game is pretty balanced. I’ve played other games before. The balanced ones are boring and bland. Dnd 4th edition was not the best 

Middle earth SBG is a well balanced game that does have a faction beating all others 80 percent of the time and remains very very fun. You don't have to be chess to be better balanced than AoS. A lot of games manage better balance than AoS, and are quite fun. 

1 hour ago, plavski said:

They do a lot of internal testing. Then they do a lot of external playtesting with top players. Then they do a lot of internal playtesting with the changes suggested by the top players. Then they test some more.

They have written and spoke extensively about this. Just read any Jervis White Dwarf article or watch him on Warhammer TV.

How is "GW don't test" still a thing?

People trying to rationalize how slaanesh became a thing.

 

 

 

[ArkanautDadmiral]

41 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

1) Yes English is my second language and at the same time I'm writing on my phone and constantly rewrite typos so sometimes it looks like a mess.

2) I can start to playtest only after 10th of january (probably will play against SCE, Goblins, Greenskinz and NH)  so right now I try to imagine how our faction works and play. Is that a crime? 

3) Yes I'm negative about alot of things even before playtesting, but from my perspective other people are unreasonably positive without playtesting. In my country we say: "Be ready for the worst, but hope for the best". 

 

 

No not a crime.

But generally trying to get someone to see the positive side of something is a good thing.

Trying to bring people into a negative atmosphere isn’t healthy.

We’ve already had one guy go from ‘GW hates me’ to ‘We’re so buffed’ to ‘I quit the hobby’ in the space of a day.

I’m sorry KO aren’t fulfilling your needs though. Like I say, maybe in the summer things will be better for you.

 

[Kramer]

3 minutes ago, stratigo said:

The thing is, like, everyone's a big boy now. KO is a rarity in the new AoS Battletomes of not being drastically stronger than its previous iteration or breaking some part of the game. KO's kinda stuck in the same pit as ogres, but to me it feels even worse since my alternative is like, even a not optimized CoS list feeling just much better a choice. 

How can you say this. Ogors is soo sooooo much better than before. And KO is not even out. Just like you predict they aren’t drastically improved.... I predict it’s a massive improvement. 
And CoS has some pretty good non optimised options, def true. 😁 

 

26 minutes ago, Reuben Parker said:

 

1 hour ago, michu said:

But they do that. That playtesters group is called "The Faithful" and @Mengel Miniatures belongs to them. 

That’s good to know but it does still then beg the question how things like stacking command abilities etc are getting missed. Or if you look at OBR no one even had to play a game to know petrifex elite was miles away the best (plus save trait and some of the best artifact and command ability giving plus save and plus rend to the same sub faction)  

Im not having a big rant I was even originally defending GW saying they test but obviously not correctly

 

Just a thought about this. And it’s not excusable let me say that upfront. But I can easily believe that the issues arise due to the fast turn around. You can instantly see petrifax will be an option. But how many play testers will have seen those rules. Too many stories of feedback arriving after printing. I can easily believe petrifax was something else and this is the result of feedback overshooting it. 

[madmac]

Just now, Kramer said:

How can you say this. Ogors is soo sooooo much better than before. And KO is not even out. Just like you predict they aren’t drastically improved.... I predict it’s a massive improvement. 
And CoS has some pretty good non optimised options, def true. 😁 

 

Just a thought about this. And it’s not excusable let me say that upfront. But I can easily believe that the issues arise due to the fast turn around. You can instantly see petrifax will be an option. But how many play testers will have seen those rules. Too many stories of feedback arriving after printing. I can easily believe petrifax was something else and this is the result of feedback overshooting it. 

Anyone who has beta tested video games knows about the nerf cycle. The most OP thing when a game releases is usually the thing that was underpowered for months and got a huge buff right before production.

[mikethefish]

5 hours ago, Entombet said:

But we could scare middle tier already, and most wanted to be able to compete with big boys

Could we?  Could we really?

[GeneralZero]

I wanted to start a KO army since they are out but it was expensive and I had some other opportunity. But now, I'm in, thanks to the aether box. Is it an expensive army anymore? Well, let's do some math together. What I want? A valid matched play KO army, with movment shoot and fluff. I like balloon guys and ships. Here is what I did/will do: 3 aether box KO halves (54€/each) resell 25€ one hero = 137€ (I think that I'll keep 2 heros they are so good lol). Then I'll just get one SC and an Ironclad (this is just above 100€ , I don't give a shoiot if it's the best choice, it is iconic!). From there, I'll think of what is the best choice (probably 1 or 2 units of thunders and one or 2 heros)

So, at 240€ I have:

6*3 balloon guys (600)

2 balloon heros (440)

4 gunhaulers (600)

5 thunder (140 or so ...dunno)

Ironclad (510)

Endriger (100  or so ...dunno)

=> 2400pts or more.

So, guys, tell me how to have a GOOD 2400pts or more for 240€ in other armies? (I did often that with dualarmies boxes). I now have plenty of time to affine the list, add some more units, etc....while being able to PLAY a FULL 2K points army. And as a bonus, I'm pretty sure that this kind of build is not bad at all. (probably not super higly competitive but I DONT CARE).

[SireScott]

This is of course premature before my first game but i think people are vastly underrating the effect of the kharadron mobility.

Any objective that isn't permanently manned can just be teleported onto. Any which is lightly held can be assaulted with the right units/ formations (e.g. brokk, iron sky squadron, or even frigates with harpoon.

I play bonereapers and i can imagine many missions which will be very hard against kharadron as any character/ catapult is vulnerable to the high rend firepower kharadrons can output and bonereapers dont have great mobility to retake captured backline objectives

I would estimate that what may hold kharadron back from top tier will be:

1. their inability to put very tough models on objectives in missions with few objectives

2. lack of tough characters and characters in ships not being able to capture in things like balance of power

3. not being great at removing tough units from objectives

but this is all guesswork and there seems some tricks id love to explore, e.g. the endless spell, or allying in some deepstriking berserkers who strike back when killed

[Maximum]

Hello, I'm a DoT player, with the release of the etheric war, I decided to start the KO, do you think it's a good start for a new player?
Should I add a start colleting?
Or buy separate things?

[Gecktron]

1 minute ago, Maximum said:

Hello, I'm a DoT player, with the release of the etheric war, I decided to start the KO, do you think it's a good start for a new player?
Should I add a start colleting?
Or buy separate things?

Its good. You get a very useful hero, who makes the 2 units of ballon duardin Battleline, plus a now improved Gunhauler. 

[Gypsy_Pistolero]

Seems like the perfect time to start the kharadron army Iv always wanted 😂 

 

Thinking 2 start collecting boxes if I convert the endrinmaster to the new hero for, 

 

Flying endrinmaster

2x3 skywardens battleline 

10 thunderers

2x gunhaulers

960 points apparently if right 

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, michu said:

Because many people doesn't care if it's not Slaanesh-level BT, they just want a BT that is fun to play (and Slaanesh is not). Mid-tier is good for local tournaments.

And I think that saying is not good for any hobby. I have better - "its just a hobby,  focus on the positives, it's better for mental health".

With that I'm totally agree. But I can't help myself and can't stop imagine more abilities and options that we doesn't get with new tome. I don't want to say that new BT is bad... but we could have much more interesting and cool rules and abilities (why GW! Why you refuse to do aether alchemy "lore" for us!)

[Eevika]

2 hours ago, plavski said:

They do a lot of internal testing. Then they do a lot of external playtesting with top players. Then they do a lot of internal playtesting with the changes suggested by the top players. Then they test some more.

They have written and spoke extensively about this. Just read any Jervis White Dwarf article or watch him on Warhammer TV.

How is "GW don't test" still a thing?

They released OBR in a state where you could create a unit that needed something like a million damage to be killed

[prochuvi]

I am a dwarf lover and after finish my dispossesed army and almost my fyreslayer army now come the turn to KO but.........i have a big problem and the reason that i didnt get them before: fliying bases.

 

I really hate that new fliying bases and i cant imagine me playing a game with some big ships moving in the table with that faill of design stand.

 

But i couldnt avoid it and i have got arkanaut boxes x2 and one aether war box.

 

Any tip for the enrigdigger to keep them on the fliying stand? I was thinking about try pinning the backpack to the stand? But i have fear to break it as those stand are so weaks.

 

Also would be "decent" use those units that i have as city of sigmar? I have been reading and it seems now every infantry unit seem weak if not used with the big boats.

 

My tougth was use my dispossesed\fyreslayers as melle slow units and a blob of enridiggers(6) and the small boat gunhauler together getting objetives

[Eevika]

6 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Any tip for the enrigdigger to keep them on the fliying stand? I was thinking about try pinning the backpack to the stand? But i have fear to break it as those stand are so weaks.

Super glue my man

[Azamar]

38 minutes ago, SireScott said:

 

This is of course premature before my first game but i think people are vastly underrating the effect of the kharadron mobility.

 

This was my thought as well- I was surprised to look back to this thread and see all the doom and gloom over the last few pages (not from everyone obviously, but more than I would expect before the book is even in our hands).

I have very limited experience with Sylvaneth so far, but I’ve already learned that tree revenants create a threat disproportionate to their apparent strength in combat.

The fact that KO can now do this with a considerable chunk of their army- or with their whole army if the fancy takes you- sounds really quite strong to me. 

[Reuben Parker]

Yeah I think the “secret sauce” may turn out to be

mobility 

screens 

add a dash of triumphs (re roll saves on ironclad or models in cover especially for the sweet 3+ re rollable.). 10 Thunderers would make a great objective holder in this role. 3+ re roll in cover when charged, then in their turn they get plus 1 attack potentially with some special weapons mixed in rather than full rifles. 
 

We will see where things shake out but my initial feelings are that this book can win games even against strong lists due to pretty good ranged damage output / pretty good survivability and then late game redeployment. However ranged mortal wound as against so many armies will be terrible for KO who have no shrugs. At least a lot of lists I’m conceiving have a higher wound count than the previous book at 130 ish. 

[Thostos]

7 hours ago, Phasteon said:

Guys, did we lose our ability to put units into ships when we deploy them? 

I think the rules just state that units can garrison the ships, not deploy together. 

Which means without battalions we have lots of drops now

  Looking at the BRB rules on Garrisons,it states that a unit can start the game inside a garrison as long as the garrison is in friendly territory.Now of course there are cities that would allow a boat to enter the game in enemy or neutral territory,but since the rule that allows that is part of a subfaction within a specific army then it overrides the BRB and would be fine.

 That would be my take on it.

 

[Just_Flo]

I am still between shock and curiosity.

I still have to math a lot of things out, 

I belive most of what people celebrate was already possible and what I and others shrugg at might in a not yet discovered was turn out more solid than expected.

Will it be solid enough? We will see.