AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[Mark Williams]

3 hours ago, Milano said:

For a beginners friendly army (at least it was advertised that way to me) they are absolutely not beginners friendly. Ok painting maybe. But otherwise too many units doing closely the same. Being +- 20pts in difference. Listbuilding becomes a nightmare until you figure out what works and what not. Until then you may spend a lot of time and money on dead ends. Keeping fingers crossed that a new battletome brings 2-3 new chamber units and a new hero - but losing a the same time redundant units, big style! Ps: GW should also check community updates for the warscrolls/abilities. Stuff like @PJetski did. I know they, wont but still 😅

Completely agree. It’s not a beginner army. Trap army all the way.

[jhamslam]

On 5/8/2020 at 1:40 PM, Milano said:

For a beginners friendly army (at least it was advertised that way to me) they are absolutely not beginners friendly. Ok painting maybe. But otherwise too many units doing closely the same. Being +- 20pts in difference. Listbuilding becomes a nightmare until you figure out what works and what not. Until then you may spend a lot of time and money on dead ends. Keeping fingers crossed that a new battletome brings 2-3 new chamber units and a new hero - but losing a the same time redundant units, big style! Ps: GW should also check community updates for the warscrolls/abilities. Stuff like @PJetski did. I know they, wont but still 😅

Theyre not even beginner friendly painting army.

Yes large flat round surfaces is all good, but you need for the basics, a gold, kantor blue, some red, leadbelcher.
Flesh eater courts is far easier in paints and you can just slap contrast and make it look good

[readercolin]

3 hours ago, jhamslam said:

Theyre not even beginner friendly painting army.

Yes large flat round surfaces is all good, but you need for the basics, a gold, kantor blue, some red, leadbelcher.
Flesh eater courts is far easier in paints and you can just slap contrast and make it look good

Flat round and more importantly - metallic surfaces.  Even as a more experience painter, I absolutely suck painting flesh (especially faces) and they never turn out well for me.  Metallics though are significantly easier, whether I am painting them with a metallic, or I am painting them more solid colors.

Flesh eater courts could be considered easier.  And now that contrast paints have come out, they might even be easier.  But for an introduction to painting, having large, easy to paint surfaces that you don't even really need a good brush for is great.  And having push to fit models is also great for beginner hobbiests.  Lastly, having all the detail available to the stormcast units allows someone to easily track how to get better at painting.  Just start filling in more and more of those details, and your skill level will go up in a visible fashion.

Just saying, there is a reason that both Stormcast and Space Marines are considered the "introductory" armies for GW.

[Mark Williams]

The original stormcast units aren't bad to paint at all.

The new sacrosanct units however have a tremendous amount of detail, and use an ungodly number of paints compared to a lot of other armies. Even if you just follow the WH TV guides to paint a sequitor, you end up using like 30 different paints. And contrast doesn't work too well on stormcast models because there's not really a metal equivalent that looks right.

But liberators are pretty easy to paint. So yeah at least once upon a time they were a really good starter army to paint. Not sure about now though with the sacrosant units....

[The World Tree]

8 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

The original stormcast units aren't bad to paint at all.

The new sacrosanct units however have a tremendous amount of detail, and use an ungodly number of paints compared to a lot of other armies. Even if you just follow the WH TV guides to paint a sequitor, you end up using like 30 different paints. And contrast doesn't work too well on stormcast models because there's not really a metal equivalent that looks right.

But liberators are pretty easy to paint. So yeah at least once upon a time they were a really good starter army to paint. Not sure about now though with the sacrosant units....

I prefer the sacrosanct design, but this is absolutely true. Although, if you are playing non-Hammers of Sigmar stormhosts, there is a lot more detail on the warrior chamber. 

[jhamslam]

On 5/8/2020 at 8:54 AM, The World Tree said:

The downside to grouping up warscrolls is point costing becomes harder. I'd recommend combining similar units so that you have combat dracoth and range dracoth for example. Condense rules, where possible and make balanced weapon options. Really, they need to cut some units. I'd do this;

• all named units removed except Prime (-6)
• Prosecutors can become one (-1)
• Dracoth riders become  1 melee/1 shooting (-2)
• Paladins = 1 unit (-2)
• remove castigators (people can use them as judicators/vanguard hunters anyway)
• Vanguard raptors become 1 (-1) Another alternative would be to make them an upgrade to judicator units?
• Make Lord Exorcist and Incantor same warscroll but alternate loadout (-1)
• Make Lord Relictor and Veritant same warscroll but alternate loadout (-1)
• Remove Drakesworn Templar (-1)
• Remove Knight Questor/Errant Questor/Zephyros (-3)

This is quite aggressive, but I like it. It clears out 18 scrolls. 

I don't like all the duplications of Lord Arcanum/Celestant, but maybe that is ok. Perhaps the arcanum on gryph charger/celestial dracoline can be alternative builds.

For the love of god, we don't need more units, especially not heroes!

I dont really see any reason to have different points for different loadouts as long as a "median" point value is achieved.

200 or 220 for all dracothion guard is fair

170 or 180 for all paladins is fair. 

Plenty of other armies have these kinda options. For instance demigryph knights, do you want a charger unit with lances or a halberd unit that gets stuck in, both for 160. 

They dug the hole themselves when they started costing different loadouts differently.

[Lucur]

Having the different paladins costed differently isn't inherently a bad thing, as it gives more angles for balancing and room for different, fun rules. Having them all overprized is, though ^^

[Troll.exe]

Hey guys just double checking, if I run the Vanguard Auxillary Chamber does that count as a single drop? Or do I drop it in 3 for each battalion? I’m assuming that it is a single drop but I just want to double check. I’m going to be doing some pretty terrible things with those Longstrikes so I’d hate to get the drops wrong on top of that lol.

[armisael]

I have read the rumor about Stoneguard

100 pts / 5 models Save 3+ possibly can ignore rend -1 and rend -2 with some rule....

Looking at my poor Liberator....

Edited May 13, 2020 by armisael

[Skreech Verminking]

2 hours ago, armisael said:

I have read the rumor about Stoneguard

100 pts / 5 models Save 3+ possibly can ignore rend -1 and rend -2 with some rule....

Looking at my poor Liberator....

And my poor doom flayer weapon team😭😭

Edited May 13, 2020 by Skreech Verminking

[Milano]

11 hours ago, Troll.exe said:

Hey guys just double checking, if I run the Vanguard Auxillary Chamber does that count as a single drop? Or do I drop it in 3 for each battalion? I’m assuming that it is a single drop but I just want to double check. I’m going to be doing some pretty terrible things with those Longstrikes so I’d hate to get the drops wrong on top of that lol.

Yes its a single drop. Just sad that the Raptor Longstrikes don’t fit in on 2k. And “only non hero’s +1 attack” come on GW

[hughwyeth]

21 hours ago, armisael said:

I have read the rumor about Stoneguard

100 pts / 5 models Save 3+ possibly can ignore rend -1 and rend -2 with some rule....

Looking at my poor Liberator....

My SC liberators and sequitors are crying, but my 120pts for 10 plaguebearers are outraged. 

[Turragor]

4 minutes ago, hughwyeth said:

120pts for 10 plaguebearers are outraged.

I dont know what plaguebearers are supposed to do tbh. Think their locus needs changed to a bonus to their ward save instead of rerolling saves of 1. Or maybe rerolling all saves. Anyway, thats another thread!

[LordPrometheus]

Anybody else thinking the new Lumineth armor suit dude would be a good ally for us?

[Marcvs]

1 hour ago, LordPrometheus said:

Anybody else thinking the new Lumineth armor suit dude would be a good ally for us?

Honestly, as a slow hero on foot which we cannot deepstrike with scions or give bonuses to charge/move, I don't see much use for him -still loving the mini of course. I am more curious about the warscroll spells of the wizards

[Juicy]

Really hope that our liberators getting some kind of defensive buf and our judicators drop 20 points.  

[NauticalSoup]

5 hours ago, Juicy said:

Really hope that our liberators getting some kind of defensive buf and our judicators drop 20 points.  

I dunno, are Judicators worth it at 140? Still p expensive if you ask me for a Liberator with a bow. I'd rather they be good shooters than cheap shooters.

Liberators are in a bad spot due to being the baseline unit for much of AoS. Compare to stuff like Chaos Warriors who are strictly superior in virtually every dimension and are still one of the crappier units in their own book. I honestly doubt GW is up to fixing them since it would require a deep dive overhaul of probably both SCE in totality, and the Liberator warscroll individually. Especially since new rules probably means SCE battleline opens up like everyone else's has and there are good odds that leaves Liberators in the dust if anything else becomes remotely take-able.

[Juicy]

Im not sure, 140 points for judicators could see them being played more and wouldnt be to OP to field as allies. I would love it to be even lower points at some where around 120 but i cant see that hapening. I couldnt believe my eyes when after 2 point adjustments these judicators are still 160 points for this insanely low damage output they have.

for Liberators i think they should be a defensive unit that can sit like a roadblock. Think we need a new book for that.  And so many people have liberators in there shelves that i dont think they get a huge buff. GW needs to make money from units we hardly play. Incoming prosecutors being battleline and doing everything 

 

[readercolin]

Lets give judicators a little bit of statshammer:

A 5 man squad will do an average of ~3.72 damage to a 6+ save.  To compare a similar shooting unit, lets take a look at the Cities of Sigmar irondrakes.  Irondrakes cost 150/10, have a 4+ save (3+ vs shooting), and get to shoot twice if they don't move and no one is within 3" of them.  A unit of irondrakes will deal ~4.9 damage on average to a 6+ save, IF they move AND they don't have any buffs running.  Keep them stationary?  Congrats, you just doubled their damage to a solid ~9.8.

This is a direct comparison of just the raw warscroll power between the two units.  Judicators should probably have a little bit less damage than irondrakes because they can decend from the sky in stormcast armies, and they have a 24" range as well.  But about 1/3 the damage of unbuffed drakes?  This is getting a little ridiculous.  On top of that, drakes have easy ways to get +1 to hit (hurricanum, or greywater command ability), a few easy ways to get +1 to wound (tempest eye's hawk eyed trair, or Hallowheart ignite weapons), and they can re-roll 1's to hit from a command point or greywater command ability, and they can re-roll 1's to wound with some longbeards.  Oh, and they can buff their rend from a runelord prayer as well.  Fully buffed, a squad of 10 irondrakes can expect to do ~20 damage per shooting phase.

As for judicators, how can they be buffed?  Anvils shoot in command phase with a command point? umm... thats about it?  How are these things worth 160 points?

I know cities is much more of a shooting army than stormcast, and that stormcast are SUPPOSED to be a strong melee army (even if they actually aren't).  But the disparity here is a little ridiculous.  I don't think lowering the points cost of the judicators is going to be enough though.  They need some sort of buff - either they all get shockbolt bows, or they all get an extra attack, or extra damage from the bows.  Something.

[NauticalSoup]

@readercolin

To add to this, there is a lot of debate about whether or not Irondrakes are actually a good shooting unit compared to other choices in the game book, namely Freeguild stuff and Sisters of the Watch. And as you said they're also point-for-point tougher than Judicators and have better synergies with access to CoS spells and buffs, dispossessed bonuses and better cities allegiances et.

All that and the jury's out as to if Irondrakes are a good unit. Doesn't leave Judicators attractive and I have to wonder how terrible somebody's army book would have to be to seriously consider using them as an ally.

Edited May 19, 2020 by NauticalSoup

[Mark Williams]

@readercolin

Yes most everything in the SCE book is pretty "pillow fisted".

[The World Tree]

Yes. Some armies are designed to have weak warscrolls that are boosted by combinations of synergies and allegiance abilities. Others have strong warscrolls spported by weaker allegiance abilities. We have barely got an allegiance ability and most of our scrolls are barely changed from AOS1.

[Argonte]

Hi all, I am a new stormcast player and I was wondering If It is whorth buying the tome or wait for revamp ¿What do you think? I am a casual player.

[Maturin]

4 minutes ago, Argonte said:

Hi all, I am a new stormcast player and I was wondering If It is whorth buying the tome or wait for revamp ¿What do you think? I am a casual player.

Wait!

 

[Marcvs]

4 minutes ago, Maturin said:

Wait!

 

Well, at the same time, while everyone seems certain that a new tome is just around the corner: a) we do not have any official announcement or schedule or roadmap to know when this will be; b) with other releases being somewhat pushed back because of the covid-19 situation, it seems unlikely that the new BT will be released before autumn-winter (considering they still need to launch the lumineth and sons of bahamat ones). In fact, when I started with stormcast last December, many people told me to wait for a new battletome and here we are

So when considering the choice of buying the battletome now I would essentially weight the amount of gaming one might be doing in the next 6 months vs the price of the battletome (proportionally reduced by the amount of gaming one might still have with the information out there)