Nizrah Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I just spotted they removed discount on seqitors... Jeez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeElectrid Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 7 hours ago, Requizen said: During the 2018/2019 season, I went 5-0 or 4-1 with Anvilstrike in all but one event I went to. The list is still good, though there are more things that can compete at the slow ranged game, which is where it can get dicey for us. Vanguard Aux will likely be a 4-1 list in the hands of a good player. I can see Sequitor blobs coming back in vogue with their point drops. Skyborne went down across the board, and has reasonable matchups against some armies. I'm sure there's more out there to be reconsidered as well. Sequitors went up by another 40 points to 480. That is partly offset by the discount to Lord Arcanum but not fully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PJetski Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Sequitors arent worth 120 points vv 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 50 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said: Sequitors went up by another 40 points to 480. That is partly offset by the discount to Lord Arcanum but not fully. I love sequitors and always try and fit a big block in a list. Then I remember that they die exactly as easily as liberators vs shooting and magic (while costing 30pts more for 5) and in melee they lose to any melee-oriented unit (which, outside of a gav bomb, is everything they're gonna meet, as they lack the speed to manoeuvre around them). My reasoning goes: before investing in melee you were (statistically) going to lose vs tzeentch/seraphon and the likes, now that you invested in melee you're still going to lose against those and are now in a bad spot vs OBR and Fyreslayers too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evantas Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 2 hours ago, Nizrah said: I just spotted they removed discount on seqitors... Jeez Ya bummer. Hope it is unintentional and there's an faq eventually. But meanwhile sequitors are pretty much gone from the meta. You either get cheaper liberators, or find a way to stretch for judicators now. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 41 minutes ago, Marcvs said: I love sequitors and always try and fit a big block in a list. Then I remember that they die exactly as easily as liberators vs shooting and magic (while costing 30pts more for 5) and in melee they lose to any melee-oriented unit (which, outside of a gav bomb, is everything they're gonna meet, as they lack the speed to manoeuvre around them). My reasoning goes: before investing in melee you were (statistically) going to lose vs tzeentch/seraphon and the likes, now that you invested in melee you're still going to lose against those and are now in a bad spot vs OBR and Fyreslayers too. Sequitors are in this strange spot where they are vastly superior to liberators, yet point costs is a thing and SC in general suffer from too many similar units. Evocators do what sequitors do but much better, so filling the batteline tax cheaper and getting more evocators is better. Then we can keep going this route and consider if evocators on dracolines do not just do the same job but better... So Sequitors allows you to take less of the meh unit, but also less of the really good units. I think it is a big problem for Stormcast in general that they made sequitors, another battline with the exact same type of armaments as liberators, same base profile... To make this work at all in future books they need to create better niches for these units entirely, like Liberators being 3+ saves and Sequitors having 5+ MW save instead, making some witch hunters, others frontline infantry... or something like that. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I hope we'll get a rule that shows how Stormcasts explode into lightning when they die: Each time a Model of a unit with the SomeKeyWord Keyword is slain: At the End of the Combat phase roll a dice for each model of this unit that died in melee this phase. On a roll of 1-3 nothing happens, however on a roll of 4+ you can deal one mortal wound to the unit that killed the model, on a 6 you can deal D3 Mortal Wounds to the unit that killed this model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yondaime Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: I hope we'll get a rule that shows how Stormcasts explode into lightning when they die: Each time a Model of a unit with the SomeKeyWord Keyword is slain: At the End of the Combat phase roll a dice for each model of this unit that died in melee this phase. On a roll of 1-3 nothing happens, however on a roll of 4+ you can deal one mortal wound to the unit that killed the model, on a 6 you can deal D3 Mortal Wounds to the unit that killed this model. With this you make them a horde army, and put an emphasis on how dye, that is a goblin thing Gw have to show how much resilient and combat oriented they are The full armored paladin with the armor forged with the core of a dying planet saves like a freeguild guard, THAT is wrong Almost all units need a extrasave, a summoning/reinforcement rule and better melee profiles This is how you make an elite army, we are just overpriced devoted of sigmar Edited July 14, 2020 by Yondaime 8 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scurvydog said: Sequitors are in this strange spot where they are vastly superior to liberators, yet point costs is a thing and SC in general suffer from too many similar units. Evocators do what sequitors do but much better, so filling the batteline tax cheaper and getting more evocators is better. Then we can keep going this route and consider if evocators on dracolines do not just do the same job but better... So Sequitors allows you to take less of the meh unit, but also less of the really good units. I think it is a big problem for Stormcast in general that they made sequitors, another battline with the exact same type of armaments as liberators, same base profile... To make this work at all in future books they need to create better niches for these units entirely, like Liberators being 3+ saves and Sequitors having 5+ MW save instead, making some witch hunters, others frontline infantry... or something like that. Sequitors were amazing when everything in the game had AoS 1.0 stats. Most things didnt have rend and a few things had -1 rend. Sequitors with a castellant would essentially be on 4+ re rollable saves. MWs aside , a pretty sturdy battleline. Most other battlelines didnt even have two wounds. Now the problem is they started handing out 2-3 damage weapons and all kinds of rend like candy. Like 5 Sequitors is about the same as 20 wounds of Vulkites, Sequitors arent winning that engagement If SCE went to 3+ it wouldnt be a problem, but a 5+ re rollable in most cases is just bad for an elite unit with no resurrection like mortek guard. I dont even know why the greatmace is NH and Daemon only, just make it Chaos and Death and MAYBE it makes Sequitors worth it Edited July 14, 2020 by jhamslam 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, jhamslam said: Sequitors worth it It is tough, because they can choose to reroll hits or saves at will, even 5 guys is still 4+ reroll 1s with 2 shields, and 3 maces with 1 on the prime is also 7 attacks with rend 1 and 2 damage. Do reroll to hit and you get 7 damage average vs a 4+ save, that is only 1 damage short of a unit of retributors. Even more damage is probably not the best fix for them, maybe making them wizards as well or some other utility value is a better route for sacrosanct to not just be improved warrior chamber 2.0 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhamslam Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Scurvydog said: It is tough, because they can choose to reroll hits or saves at will, even 5 guys is still 4+ reroll 1s with 2 shields, and 3 maces with 1 on the prime is also 7 attacks with rend 1 and 2 damage. Do reroll to hit and you get 7 damage average vs a 4+ save, that is only 1 damage short of a unit of retributors. Even more damage is probably not the best fix for them, maybe making them wizards as well or some other utility value is a better route for sacrosanct to not just be improved warrior chamber 2.0 With how the melee meta is now. You will never be at 4+ re rollable. Almost every melee unit in the game has rend now barring Khorne (which like us has remained in AoS 1.0 ) or maybe NH. Most of the time a 5+ re rollable isnt gonna cut it. Retributors are just bad as everyone already knew. So yeah more sequitors over those guys for sure. The MWs are nice but not worth the 70 point premium. Yeah making them be able to unbind spells if not cast them would be better Edited July 14, 2020 by jhamslam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 I was just thinking about this in bed last night lol, if LRL have units that are wizards then the entire Sacrosanct chamber should be wizards/able to unbind yes? With the exception of the ballista and Lord Ordinator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrulesok Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said: I was just thinking about this in bed last night lol, if LRL have units that are wizards then the entire Sacrosanct chamber should be wizards/able to unbind yes? With the exception of the ballista and Lord Ordinator. Would be cool if sacrosanct units could unbind however I would imagine castigators would need a point increase because 70 points for a unit that can unbind seems cheap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommissarRotke Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 they could add the "this unit is a wizard with 5 or more models" requirement, so you've got 140pts minimum ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattrulesok Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 6 hours ago, CommissarRotke said: they could add the "this unit is a wizard with 5 or more models" requirement, so you've got 140pts minimum ? Yeh I think that works Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marzillius Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 I've been experimenting with lists since the points dropped of course, and I've been considering 10 man Judicator units with crossbows. They are only 280 points now, and they do put out a whole lot of shots vs infantry units. A 10 man unit with 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows has 32 shots and 2d3 MWs against any infantry. Supported by an Azyros, and having 2 units, you can deepstrike down anywhere on the board and cripple a weaker flank. I came up with this list: Lord-Castellant (Staunch Defender, Lantern of the Tempest) Knight-Azyros Knight-Incantor (Azyrite Halo) Knight-Incantor (Celestial Blades) Celestant-Prime 5 Liberators (Hammers/Shields, 1 Grandhammer) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 6 Desolators Desolators has been a favourite unit of mine during the last year, and they just got even cheaper. Very nice. Since there is no Stormhost that synergises with the list I just go with Staunch. Now they can tank everything except Skarbrand. The Lantern also really mess with Lumineth archers, as long as you scroll their innate spell. It's assuredly not competitive, but hey, there are no major tournaments right now. We might as well muck about and experiment until a new book arrives. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Williams Posted July 15, 2020 Share Posted July 15, 2020 20 minutes ago, Marzillius said: I've been experimenting with lists since the points dropped of course, and I've been considering 10 man Judicator units with crossbows. They are only 280 points now, and they do put out a whole lot of shots vs infantry units. A 10 man unit with 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows has 32 shots and 2d3 MWs against any infantry. Supported by an Azyros, and having 2 units, you can deepstrike down anywhere on the board and cripple a weaker flank. I came up with this list: Lord-Castellant (Staunch Defender, Lantern of the Tempest) Knight-Azyros Knight-Incantor (Azyrite Halo) Knight-Incantor (Celestial Blades) Celestant-Prime 5 Liberators (Hammers/Shields, 1 Grandhammer) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 6 Desolators Desolators has been a favourite unit of mine during the last year, and they just got even cheaper. Very nice. Since there is no Stormhost that synergises with the list I just go with Staunch. Now they can tank everything except Skarbrand. The Lantern also really mess with Lumineth archers, as long as you scroll their innate spell. It's assuredly not competitive, but hey, there are no major tournaments right now. We might as well muck about and experiment until a new book arrives. I ran a list very similar to this for about a year. It works pretty well but you almost have to double turn your opponent to make it work against certain armies. You also have a major issue capturing objectives quickly enough to win on points, as you have to shoot your enemy off an objective and then wait another turn (or 2 if you get doubled) before you can start scoring. Sometimes this means even if you start winning on models you’ll lose the overall game. It helps to have more “moving parts” on the ground to balance it out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Naem Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 Not quite sure where to put this so I leave it here: Have any of you magnetized your Dracothian Guards? Is there a guide somewhere on the web to show where exactly to put the magnets and where to cut something away? Because I lack imagination right now, the spaces at the shoulder for example are to narrow to fit a magnet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maturin Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, Naem said: Not quite sure where to put this so I leave it here: Have any of you magnetized your Dracothian Guards? Is there a guide somewhere on the web to show where exactly to put the magnets and where to cut something away? Because I lack imagination right now, the spaces at the shoulder for example are to narrow to fit a magnet. Yes, you should, especially in a world of changing points value. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucur Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 I'd assume you can just cut off the weapon heads, drill a 2mm×2mm hole in said heads, plunge one magnet in there and the other on the shaft of the weapon, thus creating a guide for the magnets to slip into and hold firmly. I don't own the kit but went with this for others where it worked like a charm. Not sure the weapon heads are wide enough to drill into though. Just thought i'd bring it up until someone with actual experience chimes in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Naem said: Not quite sure where to put this so I leave it here: Have any of you magnetized your Dracothian Guards? Is there a guide somewhere on the web to show where exactly to put the magnets and where to cut something away? Because I lack imagination right now, the spaces at the shoulder for example are to narrow to fit a magnet. Haven't done this yet but it's in my plans for the future. I have bookmarked this, if it's of any help PS: having started magnetising the weapon options for my first army in 40k (26 magnets for a single Wraithlord 😮 ) this seems like a walk in the park lol Edited July 16, 2020 by Marcvs 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turragor Posted July 16, 2020 Share Posted July 16, 2020 The gauntlets /hands are separate so I just magnetised those. There's also a lot. Generous kit for magnets. I've had 3 boxes built and have 6 desolator arms, 4 Fulminator arms, 2 concussors and 2 tempestors painted and magnetised all from those 3 kits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FattBooM666 Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 On 7/14/2020 at 5:30 AM, Requizen said: During the 2018/2019 season, I went 5-0 or 4-1 with Anvilstrike in all but one event I went to. The list is still good, though there are more things that can compete at the slow ranged game, which is where it can get dicey for us. Vanguard Aux will likely be a 4-1 list in the hands of a good player. I can see Sequitor blobs coming back in vogue with their point drops. Skyborne went down across the board, and has reasonable matchups against some armies. I'm sure there's more out there to be reconsidered as well. Seq don't have the bonus of higher units. But maybe 5-10 might be good? 🤔 I was even looking at 30x lib fir 480, its 60 wounds for 25% of army 🤔 (sure you can squeeze more with aetherwings) idk alot worth exploring. 😋 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrimeElectrid Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, FattBooM666 said: Seq don't have the bonus of higher units. But maybe 5-10 might be good? 🤔 I was even looking at 30x lib fir 480, its 60 wounds for 25% of army 🤔 (sure you can squeeze more with aetherwings) idk alot worth exploring. 😋 3 hours ago, FattBooM666 said: Seq don't have the bonus of higher units. But maybe 5-10 might be good? 🤔 I was even looking at 30x lib fir 480, its 60 wounds for 25% of army 🤔 (sure you can squeeze more with aetherwings) idk alot worth exploring. 😋 On 7/15/2020 at 9:16 PM, Marzillius said: I've been experimenting with lists since the points dropped of course, and I've been considering 10 man Judicator units with crossbows. They are only 280 points now, and they do put out a whole lot of shots vs infantry units. A 10 man unit with 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows has 32 shots and 2d3 MWs against any infantry. Supported by an Azyros, and having 2 units, you can deepstrike down anywhere on the board and cripple a weaker flank. I came up with this list: Lord-Castellant (Staunch Defender, Lantern of the Tempest) Knight-Azyros Knight-Incantor (Azyrite Halo) Knight-Incantor (Celestial Blades) Celestant-Prime 5 Liberators (Hammers/Shields, 1 Grandhammer) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 10 Judicators (Boltstorm Crossbows, 2 Thunderbolt Crossbows) 6 Desolators Desolators has been a favourite unit of mine during the last year, and they just got even cheaper. Very nice. Since there is no Stormhost that synergises with the list I just go with Staunch. Now they can tank everything except Skarbrand. The Lantern also really mess with Lumineth archers, as long as you scroll their innate spell. It's assuredly not competitive, but hey, there are no major tournaments right now. We might as well muck about and experiment until a new book arrives. So these lists seem to highlight the SCE dilemma, expressed in two scenarios: Shifting Objectives and Better Part of Valour. One gives bonus points to battleline units within 6” of an objective (restricting deep strikes if you want to take advantage of it), and the other requires battleline to destroy other battleline. In melee. And this is the rub with Stormcast in GHB2020. Total Commitment removes a whole allegiance ability. Two battleplans punish armies with bad battleline. 3 reward armies with good (>5 wound, tanky, mobile) leaders, 1 with good monsters. If you have units that fit more than one of those categories (eg battleline monsters, or monster heroes) then all the better. This means 3/12 battleplans, 25%, are straight up awful for SCE, and 4 more present serious problems. That’s over half which are already an upwards struggle, not counting any other tough scenarios. Ive really no idea how to go about building a good list in this meta. Everything that isn’t Leader/Battleline/Monster feels like dead weight due to scenario scoring, and it’s not like non-L/B/M units in the SCE book overperform to make up the difference. I wonder if lists need to stick to those three unit types (eg battleline Sequitor blobs supported by Stardrakes I guess?), or go all in on other units that seek to overwhelm instead (which I suppose is just the Longstrike build these days). edit: FYI as a comparison, my OBR list is Katakros, Liege Kavalos, Mortek Guard, KDR, Crawler, Harvester. Every single unit in that list scores bonus VPs or can seriously contest ABPoV. How is SCE meant to compete with that on just scoring, let alone when it comes to actually fighting? Edited July 17, 2020 by PrimeElectrid 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Requizen Posted July 17, 2020 Share Posted July 17, 2020 4 hours ago, PrimeElectrid said: So these lists seem to highlight the SCE dilemma, expressed in two scenarios: Shifting Objectives and Better Part of Valour. One gives bonus points to battleline units within 6” of an objective (restricting deep strikes if you want to take advantage of it), and the other requires battleline to destroy other battleline. In melee. And this is the rub with Stormcast in GHB2020. Total Commitment removes a whole allegiance ability. Two battleplans punish armies with bad battleline. 3 reward armies with good (>5 wound, tanky, mobile) leaders, 1 with good monsters. If you have units that fit more than one of those categories (eg battleline monsters, or monster heroes) then all the better. This means 3/12 battleplans, 25%, are straight up awful for SCE, and 4 more present serious problems. That’s over half which are already an upwards struggle, not counting any other tough scenarios. Ive really no idea how to go about building a good list in this meta. Everything that isn’t Leader/Battleline/Monster feels like dead weight due to scenario scoring, and it’s not like non-L/B/M units in the SCE book overperform to make up the difference. I wonder if lists need to stick to those three unit types (eg battleline Sequitor blobs supported by Stardrakes I guess?), or go all in on other units that seek to overwhelm instead (which I suppose is just the Longstrike build these days). edit: FYI as a comparison, my OBR list is Katakros, Liege Kavalos, Mortek Guard, KDR, Crawler, Harvester. Every single unit in that list scores bonus VPs or can seriously contest ABPoV. How is SCE meant to compete with that on just scoring, let alone when it comes to actually fighting? It's not much change from GHB2019 honestly. In pretty much every mission, the Stormcast strategy has been "cripple or table the opponent by the end of the game, or get outscored and lose". The only time that hasn't been true was during times where we were spamming bodies during Warrior Brotherhood, Vanguard Wing, and early Gav Bomb with mass Sequitors. Stardrake builds, Aetherstrike, Anvilstrike, Skyborne, Ballistas with Dracolines - all of these have relied on doing terrible damage before even thinking about playing the objective game in most missions. I think that will continue to be the norm for Stormcast until we get something to mitigate it in a new Battletome. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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