Why do you accept this mess?

[Talas]

52 minutes ago, Eternalis said:

I've yet to hear people playing "Star Wars: Legion" say : I'm afraid the game could die tomorrow.
Yet that's a big dilema for GW players: will the other game i want to try survive the next 6 months? Maybe, maybe not. WFB died, Mordheim died, Gorka Morka died, GW games aren't immune to a collapse either.

It's funny that you mention Legion as a example, it reminds me that I used to play Star Wars: X-Wing a lot a few years ago. That game was number 2 in sales of miniatures just behind 40k and now after its 2nd edition, COVID, the lack of new ships, and the move from FFG to AMG, the local scene just disappeared and it's barely alive online (vassal or TTS). It can happen to any system.

[Twisted Firaun]

20 hours ago, Battlefury said:

I would like to know your opinion about the state of acceptance due to specific points:

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 books / releases to have all of the rules together.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

6. FAQ debacle.

7. Massive FOMO


Why do you accept this mess? Looking for individual opinions here.

cheers///

 

I haven't played an actual game of Warhammer (AOS or 40K) in over five years for various reasons. I'm honestly just in the hobby for lore, conversions, and good cheer. If the price goes up on a model I want, I can't complain since this is a hobby, not a necessity. 

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Eternalis said:

WFB died, Mordheim died, Gorka Morka died, GW games aren't immune to a collapse either.

It might just be the whole global situation we've got going on, but there seems to be a huge appetite for gaming nostalgia right now. It's actually easier to find a game of WFB (7th ed, using 6th ed army books) at my local gaming club than AoS (or 40k!) at the moment. A lot of people have been preparing warbands for an upcoming Mordheim campaign, and I wouldn't be surprised if Gorkamorka started popping up as well.

Obscure games don't die, they just lie dormant, waiting for some enthusiastic player to spark a surge of local interest.

[Eternalis]

7 hours ago, Kadeton said:

Obscure games don't die, they just lie dormant, waiting for some enthusiastic player to spark a surge of local interest.

Of course, and as long as you own the minis/rules you can play!

[Overread]

One thought on the original topic regarding "this mess". If you look at any hobby or interest you will see problems. Things that could be easily fixed, things that baffle your mind as to why they are what they are and things that drive you nuts because the solution is right there to be taken and isn't. 

 

Everything is like that. It's a bundle of different skills, experiences, budgets, design choices, ignorance, staged design failures, keeping it cheap, factory issues, different perspectives, different agendas and more. 

The important thing is that within any hobby the negatives have to be smaller than the positives for a person to enjoy themselves. Age of Sigma has problems; we often talk about them a lot and the internet is a hyper-focal engine for focusing on the negatives, sometimes into the extreme. People are far more likely to post about one problem than the twenty games they've enjoyed; and discussions about one problem are more likely to get a lot of attention over "hey had a great game this weekend" type threads. So one risk with any interest is getting too engaged in online negativity which can then spill over into your real life hobby and suddenly you're hyper focusing on the negatives and missing the reward, the positives. 

It's a big reason that TGA focuses on avoiding negativity on the site. We fully allow critical evaluation and constructive critique; but we try to avoid the hyper negativity which can sometimes plague our hobby. Creating a place on the net that tries to focus more on the positive and to be constructive when looking at the negative. 

Another aspect is that in the real world if you fall out of interest with a hobby you generally won't bother turning up to the store or game night event. You just won't put the effort and money and time into turning up most times. However online its dead easy to turn up to the forum or facebook group every day. Even if you've no longer got an interest and you're more hyper aware of the negatives. This can create a negativity culture where a few people are "out" of the hobby (or one firm) and yet are still coming around talking about it. Again it ends up hyper focusing on the negative. 

 

 

Every single thing has ups and downs, finding the flaws is good; but so too is taking the time to find the good things. Balanced critique of anything has to look at the ups and the downs otherwise you run the risk that you only identify problems and lose sight of the positives. 

[azdimy]

1. Prices increasing with each new release

I ve been buying a lot less as price have kept increasing

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 books / releases to have all of the rules together.

I look for sites where I can find all my rules in 1 place. Eventually the warhammer app could be that but not today

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

it s a mix bag.  New army doesn t always mean higher power level. I d say at this point while I still attend competitive events,  I set goals based on my army only knowing the game is not balanced and some match ups results are set before deployment

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

With so many armies it s not a surprise. Better alternative models are usually available if the current aesthetic feels too old

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.
I convert or buy from third party the model itself if this is something I want

I think lately GW has been faster at releasing them on their own a few months after the box release

 
6. FAQ debacle.

I have a hard time with the FAQs. I admit I always set my expectations too high and I am always disappointed. GW needs to do a better job with this IMO. The battlescroll update feels like a step in the right direction however

7. Massive FOMO

The more GW focuses on 40k the lesser it is a problem for me since I do not play that game system

[Galdenistal]

I don't put up with it anymore, a few months before the covid mess started I was getting bored of playing BoK and tired of the general rate of change in the game and other imbalance issues.

Every so often I come back to see if anything has changed.

[Noserenda]

There is a a fairly big difference between GW killing off support for a game and it actually dying though (Though arguably PP executed Warmahordes i dont think that was intentional...) as the former tends to still have substantial communities playing and supporting them, to the extent that it encourages GW to actually come back again (Lotr, BB and Necro being the big ones) while most other games just fade away despite their manufacturers efforts, never to be seen again until i sell them for pennies on ebay/fb.

Historicals are different but then id argue historicals are a different hobby in many ways, like re-enactment and larp.

[Overread]

Historicals are -- strange. They seem to rely almost totally on a very mature (40+) aged market that sort of seems to just gravitate toward them rather than a strong marketing campaign. Certainly whenever I see historical groups or gatherings there are exceptionally few to no younger gamers present. 

It's a bit of an enigma in the wargame market. I suspect the fact that sci-fi/fantasy DO have market cross over means that young people still get encouraged into the hobby itself and then just seem to gravitate toward historical games once they turn 40 or so

[Brakh]

On 1/17/2022 at 8:53 AM, Battlefury said:

...
Why do you accept this mess? Looking for individual opinions here.

 

I don't. Already left AoS for alternative games such as ASOIAF and SW Legion. From time to time I still like to paint some GW models from my pile of shame but in terms of gameplay IMO AoS ruleset and overall balance is kinda poor. 

[readercolin]

1. Prices increasing with each new release.

I have a budget that I use for my hobbies.  ~$100 a month dedicated to whatever hobbies I want, whether that is warhammer, video games, magic, or other hobbies.  Recently, I have dropped my other hobbies due to time commitments, but I can keep doing warhammer because I can just sit down and paint/hobby in the evenings after the kids have gone to bed.  But $100 a month comes out to $1200/year, and unless I am specifically going and purchasing some high-cost/low points models (ex. gyrocopters), you can generally get 3-4k points of models for that amount of money in a year.  Additionally, because of those other time commitments, in the past 12 months I have gotten ~4k points fully built, painted, and (almost) based.

I could compare this to some of my other hobbies.  Some are more expensive.  Some are cheaper.  If I stop getting excited about building/painting my armies, I will move on and do something else.  But in the end, if prices are going up for models, it just means that I will buy less or I will adjust my hobby budget.

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 books / releases to have all of the rules together.

Meh - the AoS rules aren't particularly bloated in my opinion.  I can bring the generals handbook which has my core rules + battleplans, my faction battletome, and the FAQ (either downloaded or printed out).  There are a few armies that have some optional supplements (ex. cities of sigmar having additional cities in about 4 extra books plus a white dwarf), but unless you are hyper-competitive about it, you can pretty easily just ignore those extra rules.  And if you are getting hyper-competitive about it... you probably are playing the wrong game.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.

Not applicable?  Or are you telling me that the new slannesh battletome has been tearing things up with its new releases?  Or how about how BoneSplittaz are now tearing up the meta?  I know, you can go into detail about how Soulblight Gravelords are taking home all the trophy's.

Anyone that is saying that power level is increasing with new releases is suffering from a massive case of cherry picking.  Did the new edition change things and leave some armies in the dumpster?  Yes.  This is a new edition problem, not a new release problem, and it happens every time there is a new edition.  Some armies do much better with new editions than others (see Sons of Behamet), while some do much worse (see gloomspite gitz). But anyone saying that GW is releasing new books and power creeping older books out when they do so needs to get off their crazy train and do some fact checking, because any amount of that will tell you that is CLEARLY not the case.  Or maybe it is for 40k, but it isn't for AoS.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, wich just don't get anything new and up to date.

It happens.  Sure, it sucks that GW hasn't done jack for Fyreslayers.  Sure, it sucks that you can still buy brand new skaven models in metal.  But if I am buying models, they are because they are something I want to paint and play with, whether they are new models or not.  If you are referring to the rules for the armies, again, not too worried because GW has been going through and updating a bunch of the older factions.  However, if you are limiting yourself to 1 faction being updated a month, it would still take GW 2 years to go through and touch every faction in AoS.

Again, the problem I think people are running into is that they are getting hyper-competitive with AoS, and if they are, they are probably playing the wrong game.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

Whatever.  Is it annoying that if I want a Lord-Relictor, Karkadrak, or Bloodsecrator I have to buy a start collecting that contains a bunch of other stuff I don't care about?  Sure.  But there is this thing called Ebay that I can use instead if I just want those models.  Or I can kitbash something together to make it happen instead.  As for stuff like the Sylvaneth Arch-revenant, or the Endrinmaster with Dirigible suit, yeah, it can be a little annoying to have to wait before you can purchase them, but again, you can use Ebay if you really want just that model, or you can kitbash, or you can just wait.

6. FAQ debacle.

I must have missed something here, because I don't remember this.  So clearly this isn't a big deal.

7. Massive FOMO

This is called marketing.  I recommend you look at ways to ignore it. But when it comes to AoS, there isn't really anything that stays exclusive forever, and a bit of patience will go a long way.  I do this by making a plan of what I'm going to buy/build for the next few months, and then stick to that plan.  Reducing impulse purchases and planning things out helps you both avoid FOMO AND stick to your budget, while avoiding getting mountains of grey.  

[NauticalSoup]

18 hours ago, Talas said:

It's funny that you mention Legion as a example, it reminds me that I used to play Star Wars: X-Wing a lot a few years ago. That game was number 2 in sales of miniatures just behind 40k and now after its 2nd edition, COVID, the lack of new ships, and the move from FFG to AMG, the local scene just disappeared and it's barely alive online (vassal or TTS). It can happen to any system.

It's amazing how basically every game that isn't warhammer seems to die almost overnight after any misstep. 

Warmahordes and X-wing both died pretty ignominiously in our club, after going toe-to-toe with Warhammer for quite some time.

[CommissarRotke]

I don't--I put up with GW enough to play around in the world of AOS. I think players need to reorient away from glorifying large purchases, and back to game/army-crafting and painting.

GW priced me out of model kits with the new stormdrakes, and if that keeps happening then I'll either stick to Soulbound or go find other games.

At least half of GW's business model, including FAQ and rules handling, needs to change drastically to keep up with the very solid wargames that are around now.

[Kadeton]

15 hours ago, Eternalis said:

Of course, and as long as you own the minis/rules you can play!

One of the best things about "dead" systems is that there's no longer a corporate interest telling you what models you're allowed to use. There are a ton of companies out there producing models that are compatible with any of these systems.

Generally, the rules for defunct systems are readily available online, and are often maintained and updated by a passionate community.

[Nirvana]

1. Prices increasing with each new release. 

Well, I accept certain inalienable truths: prices will rise, politicians will philander, you too will get old - and when you do you'll fantasize that when you were young, prices were reasonable, politicians were noble and children respected their elders.  Respect your elders
 

2. Rules bloated. It sometimes takes more than 4 books / releases to have all of the rules together.

Other than the rule book, the Handbook, the Army book, the app, and the campaign book, what am I missing?  Its almost like playing D&D back in 2nd edition and the 8 handbooks you need to create a character.

3. Power level increasing with new releases, leaving older armies behind.
I don't think any of my armies have been left behind.  Other than some of the main changes in the rulebook.  I mean, I think some things like Ogor's ignoring the rules for having 6 models part is all that I think needs to be done.  Otherwise, Nurgle, STD, and Soul Blight appear to be doing OK.

4. GW basically neglecting certain factions, which just don't get anything new and up to date.

I thought 40K came through and had a lot of really rapid changes.  I mean, 8th was a short edition.  I mean, 3rd edition lasted some 6 years and 8th was about half that time.  I'm worried they will have a 10th edition because they are almost done with all of their races.  AOS has been slower because of major shipping delays.  I figure if the Company I work for can't buy product and get it unloaded timely then I believe the shipping delays are real.  That and my grocery store has about 2-3 empty aisles like no Gatorade or pasta or chicken.

5. Models being locked behind paywalls, or big box sets, for a long period of time.

I haven't had that happen to me.  There is nothing I need so bad that would drive me to buy a box unless I wanted everything in it.  For Custodes, why not get more terminators :).  For Ogors, why not get another Soul War box.  

6. FAQ debacle.

I'm afraid I don't know what the debacle is.  It appears that we get much more frequent updates and they are free on the website.  About 20 years ago you had to either a) have the White Dwarf article in hand (photo copies not permitted because people were doctoring them up) or b) buy the annual Chapter Approved book that collected all of the rules from the White Dwarfs over the last year.

7. Massive FOMO

Honestly, I buy what I want, when I want it.  The only thing I made sure to buy when it came out because my wife and brother enjoy the game as well is Cursed City/Warhammer Quest.  I was a bit shocked that they didn't reprint them or announce they would do that when the game was released but as much as I saw people complaining about it online, I still saw a copy at my FLGS.  While it may have been limited online, it was definitely pushed to retailers.

[Durgin]

I also have many complaints about how GW is handling their products, but I still enjoy so much this hobby. As soon as it inspires my creativity, and manages to fascinate me with this crazy mix of escapism and colorful puppets, I'm in.

[Ormly]

I got into the game for the models and the painting. And nobody, nobody is making better models right now. That's really it for me.

[Tervindar]

As someone who has been pushed out of playing the game, although, I still do enjoy some of the new models that are being released. Bundling new heroes and units in a new battlebox just gets extremely old, for example, I have an IDK army, but if i wanted to use that new hero i have to buy a $200 box, that's super lame. Sure they get released down the line but still. 

10 hours ago, Ormly said:

I got into the game for the models and the painting. And nobody, nobody is making better models right now. That's really it for me.

This is very subjective as there are plenty of 3d printable files that are available that frankly put their stuff to shame. 
 

In general, I have come to terms with it that this particular game doesn't suit my needs anymore and that's perfectly fine. My beasts of chaos, deepkin, and seraphon will continue to remain in their display cabinets as I'm super proud of them. 

[NinthMusketeer]

To answer the question directly; I don't. I've stopped playing (and buying) 40k entirely because the bloat made it no longer fun. Even for AoS I buy less models than I used to. But I feel GW did a big step in the right direction with starting up the quarterly balance sheets, and going out of their way to announce the significant point increase to stormdrake guard before they went on pre-order. They would have stood to profit off leaving that information only with the balance sheet but instead took the (albeit small) cost in favor of helping the community. That's pretty big for me.

There have been a lot of campaign book releases for AoS, but I felt like I got my money's worth from all of them. They delivered good narrative, good writing, and a lot of very solid content. Again much of it focused on improving play experience. I feel like the newest GHB has delivered an overall great set of scenarios again, I like the design of the battlepack and I like that they added a narrative surrounding that battlepack. Having it spiral bound is well worth the extra cost associated. Zooming out a bit, 2nd edition was a good period for AoS and I was worried it would be looked back upon as the 'golden age' after 3rd screwed things up. But 3rd has turned out to be a lot of fun and while I really dislike certain aspects the overall experience has improved.

So do I 'accept' the mess? As established right off, no, because it has affected my purchasing. But my tolerance is more nuanced than 'yes' or 'no'.

[Lowki]

On 1/17/2022 at 10:14 AM, Iksdee said:

Because i am having fun.

Edit: This is my answer to all your questions. If it starts getting to the point that its not worth it for me because i stop having fun i need to find something else to spend my time on.

Exactly this 

[Neverchosen]

I like the models, try and get them for cheap and mostly play friendly games where balance is not an issue.

[schwabbele]

Simple,for me the complete package is still far the best compared to the rest.

[annarborhawk]

If I'm being honest, it's a combination of  two things:

1. I'm a victim of the sunk-cost fallacy, and I just keep throwing money and time at something that I've already spent a lot of both on.

2. The fun/interest/mini quality/fluff quality/ease of finding a game (the positives) still exceed the cost/crappy GW support/imbalances/rules bloat/power creep (the negatives).

But it's barely true for me! In fact, if a genie came down and said he would snap his fingers and every mini gamer in my area would suddenly and simultaneously switch to a better system/company and all their armies would also magically transform with it, I wouldn't complain. 

But where I am, GW is still king. I went down the road of investing in what I considered much better systems, but if you have only a handful of other people who do the same, you just don't get to play as much. Or you end up playing the same game against the same opponent, and that can get stale quickly.  So for now, I put up with a mountain of negatives because I can play a reasonably fun game with gorgeous models against many different opponents (and therefore many different armies) pretty much whenever I am able to.

[Pyrescribe]

1) It's a luxury hobby. I can afford it, so I buy what I want. If I can't afford it, I'll find something else to do.

2) The nature of my work makes things like rules bloat understandable in a capitalistic retail model.

3) Playing with an underpowered/old army gives unique insight and experience (and bragging rights).

4) GW has had this established pattern of behavior for longer than I've been alive. I spent a dozen years playing any game other than GW games. I came back for the # 1 reason I tolerate all these issues you've listed.

5) If I MUST have something, and I can afford it, I buy it. Otherwise it can wait. Or someone will sell it at a tolerble price on the open market.

6) Mistakes happen. Remember that apartment building that collapsed in Miami and killed a bunch of tenants? That's a debacle. Nerds raging over unclear or contradictory rules is...comical, honestly.

7) It's only FOMO if you let it be.

 

The #1 reason I put up with all this is because my favorite people to play games with play Warhammer. It's been a part of my life since I was a wee lad, and they've been along for much of the journey.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Pyrescribe

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:30 AM, Overread said:

Historicals are -- strange. They seem to rely almost totally on a very mature (40+) aged market that sort of seems to just gravitate toward them rather than a strong marketing campaign. Certainly whenever I see historical groups or gatherings there are exceptionally few to no younger gamers present. 

It's a bit of an enigma in the wargame market. I suspect the fact that sci-fi/fantasy DO have market cross over means that young people still get encouraged into the hobby itself and then just seem to gravitate toward historical games once they turn 40 or so

Lol because while very true I was the opposite.  I was playing a lot of historical in my late 20s and 30s (with those 40+s you mention fair enough) and just around 40 got so fed up with it I switched to AoS.  Historical really is its own thing.