AoS 3 - Nighthaunt Discussion

[relic456]

I've given the leaks an initial skim and the severe lack of damage and minimal MW output is reallllyyyyyy disappointing to see. I'm not sure how we'll be able to shift anything off objectives as it is, but maybe there's some combo I'm not seeing. The allegiance abilities are great but the warscrolls are so bland. I know it's a general trend in 3.0, but seeing Kurdoss with only one rule on his warscroll really felt like a gut punch  .

Edit: Also if the Guardian of Souls and Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed don't get released as individual models when our book drops I'm gonna lose my mindddddd.

Edited May 1, 2022 by relic456

[dmorley21]

I’m seeing a few folks complain about the army’s output. It’s not a strength, but I don’t think it’s an Achilles heel either. Keep in mind that almost half the time your units will have an additional rend on the charge. Multi-charges will be huge.

[Jaskier]

Yeah, the damage doesn't look "great" at first glance but the army looks set to force heaps of saves through with even basic Chainrasp units, and the army-wide retreat and charge means this army is phenomenal at playing the positioning game.

There's heaps of ways to boost our output, i.e. Spirit Torment + Chainghasts, a Guardian of Souls, lots of units innately having charge bonuses (which synergises with retreat and charge) our heroes all got a facelift to do some damage themselves, and then there's Wave of Terror. If you roll any 8-9s or even 10s on multi-charges, things will die. Aura of Dread shuts off Inspiring Presence which will also help a lot, as even Stormcast typically have low Bravery.

Still, the army isn't designed to just wipe units out immediately. It wants to grind a combat out, as evidenced by Wave of Terror - two of its effects are more defensive in nature - and lots of abilities that impede your opponent. The Krulghast has a -1 Damage aura that's extremely easy to activate. Dreadscythes impose a -1 to-wound penalty on anything they charge. Our 'hex' spells from Olynder and the spell lore also play into this. 

If you're worried about low damage, run MSU to fish for -1 save stacks from Wave of Terror, couple beatsticks like Kurdoss with Spirit Hosts to protect them, run Hexwraiths for their 2+ D3 mortals on the charge, run lots of Bladegheists in the Scarlet Doom, have a block of Myrmourns handy to potentially sink some buffs on (i.e. that once per game +1 attack) and hell - run a Black Coach as it's a beast now. 

I do see the army struggling to take down things like Mega-Gargants in one go which obviously is a bit problematic going into the Sons matchup, but you can still debuff the tar out of them so they will likely lose the 'attrition' war. 

 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Jaskier

[Boggler]

35 minutes ago, dmorley21 said:

I’m seeing a few folks complain about the army’s output. It’s not a strength, but I don’t think it’s an Achilles heel either. Keep in mind that almost half the time your units will have an additional rend on the charge. Multi-charges will be huge.

I'm now banking on the NH book having the new pts that will be in the 2022 General's Handbook.

If all the other armies get a 20% pts increase we'll be ok.

We'll also play nicely into a few other A-B tier armies, which will be fun games. Anything A+ or better will be a challenge.

Yeah, if we multi-charge then we'd be ok. We'd have also been better off if we'd have had units of 5 still. Units of 10 32mm bases with a 1" reach isn't ideal for an already mediocre output. Sure, the extra rend from the charge is great but it in no way replaces losing the ability to do a mortal on a 6.

It will be interesting to see how DoK fares. Maybe they lose all the tankiness they had and become pure glass cannons. Will they lose their MW output too?

Also, I have 20 Dreadscythe that I'm working on and now I am not so sure, I don't understand what the Murderous Bloodlust ability is supposed to accomplish. I had them rated highly and now they don't even have a role in any of my lists.

[Boggler]

11 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

our heroes all got a facelift to do some damage themselves

I was super happy to see this. At their old pts costs its would have made a lot of sense to just throw some MSU Heroes in there to follow along and chip in where required. It wasn't uncommon so see Bonesplitterz take multiple Big Boss just to get stuck in. The cost was right.

Cairn Wraith at 70pts, ok we're talking. 115pts... uhmmmmm

Lord Executioner at 90, ok! let's fit him in! 140pts... ummm no thanks...

It will certainly take some time to synergize everything we got. Hopefully it works out. If it doesn't it'll still be fun trying!

[Rors]

I think this book has heaps of damage.

No inspiring presence means we need to consider that we'll often be removing additional MODELS not wounds through battleshock.

One subfaction just straight up does mortal wounds every turn.

Banshees are glass hammers, 105 for 8 attacks at d2 rend2 will hurt.

Multi charges take debuffs on units and we should be multicharging every charge phase.

Coach is a missile.

We don't have a unit that is a fulminators comparison but I think this army definitely has the ability to cause chip damage across multiple phases. Hero phase damage, charge phase damage, combat, shooting, battleshock, we don't have amazing output in any of them but we do have a way to have consistent damage in all of them.

 

[Boggler]

9 minutes ago, Rors said:

No inspiring presence means we need to consider that we'll often be removing additional MODELS not wounds through battleshock.

One subfaction just straight up does mortal wounds every turn.

Banshees are glass hammers, 105 for 8 attacks at d2 rend2 will hurt.

At 105, Banshees are better than most of our Heroes AND provide amazing utility. Lets say they roll an 8 on the charge, they'll be rend-3 and likely whatever they are hitting will have no save, that's not that bad at all, they'll do maybe 4-6 damage. That is amazing. A few units are auto include and synergize with exactly what this multi-charge style we're talking about.

Aura of Dread is ridiculous. Everyone knows this. I just hope my opponents don't get too salty when they roll those 6's for battleshock. It is a dice game after all...

I rate Emerald Host highest. Doing an average of 8 mortals to an average of 3 different units over the whole game is pretty good. Its 12 average mortals vs a Monster. That kills a Breakaboss and almost kills Gobsprakk! Is that Lord Relictor bothering you? You might also roll hot and take out Lord-Commander Bastian Carthalos! Its not unrealistic! Worried about Kragnos and his shield? The extra mortals will help a lot.

The Scarlett Doom bomb is super cool too. 4x20 Bladeghests is freakin scary... and only 1400 pts. That still leaves room for a GoS with an auto cast cogs and an Incarnate maybe?

[EnixLHQ]

Pardon me while I squeal like a small flailing child.

[Evil Bob]

2 hours ago, Boggler said:

I'm now banking on the NH book having the new pts that will be in the 2022 General's Handbook.

If all the other armies get a 20% pts increase we'll be ok.

At the reduction of bedsheets on the table I was/am seriously concerned. Getting proper rules won’t mean jack if other armies are grossly ahead on wounds and dice volume. The Briar Queen jacking of points looks like they are seriously trying to remove the underworlds warband from even narrative play.

If there is a rise in points you’ll need to change your name to “Prophet”

[CaptainSoup]

Like a ghastly procession of spooky spirits rising from the Underworld, CaptainSoup returns yet again from another forum hiatus, this time to join in the festivities of the recent leaks.

How about them leaks, eh?

Everyone's been having great conversations around the leaks and I've been enjoying the takes from everyone. Aside from the points hike which we'll have to wait and see how good or bad those were for us, the talk about MWs is an interesting one.

As mentioned on this forum page (pg47) we do have ways to push MWs to our opponents, it's just a bit more spread out and unconventional which just so happens to work for us since we'll be wanting to get as many of our ghosti bois into our opponent's faces as possible. With the stacks of debuffs we can give a unit we're sure to cause some havok. It might not be dragons or giants level of one turn damage, but it's enough to put the hurt on them throughout the game.

All that being said, there seems to be this underlying idea that MWs translates to "damage" that gives off a feeling that that is the only say you can kill anything right now. That to me seems like a game design/balance problem rather than a problem with our upcoming book. If 3.0 has turned into this killing game where the ones to do the most damage the fastest wins then that's a very boring game to play imo.

At least with this new Nighthaunt book, they could kill us, but they're going to terrifed of us while doing so!

😏

Edited May 1, 2022 by CaptainSoup

[Rors]

1 hour ago, CaptainSoup said:

All that being said, there seems to be this underlying idea that MWs translates to "damage" that gives off a feeling that that is the only say you can kill anything right now. That to me seems like a game design/balance problem rather than a problem with our upcoming book. If 3.0 has turned into this killing game where the ones to do the most damage the fastest wins then that's a very boring game to play imo.

😏

I couldn't agree more with this. The game is best when you play to objectives and the lethality of units is a component towards achievement of objectives not an objective itself.

While everyone goes nuts for high damage combos as they're really good for your personal army, they're a problem for game design. The game should boil down to choices made by player skill, not listing building the combo of the month. Having a few options that are really Smashy is fine but they should have a strategic drawback, be it lack of projection or also being fragile.

Power combos like morathi and the bowsnakes are terrible because by they require no skill to use and often just remove units with little interaction between the players.

That said, I don't see any problem combos like that in this book yet (although it's early days). I'm very glad there's nothing that just deletes units without any need for competent player choices.

[Fellman]

With all the new hero abilities with hero setup will you play

[Bosskelot]

Those leaks got me tempted to start Nighthaunt. They look like a lot of fun and have some cool flavour.

[Rachmani]

1 hour ago, Rors said:

That said, I don't see any problem combos like that in this book yet (although it's early days). I'm very glad there's nothing that just deletes units without any need for competent player choices.

Ignoring a few outliers (mainly SCE) I think that all the 3.0 books are pretty good in that sense. I‘m super happy that the trend continues or seems to continue.

[Vastus]

3 hours ago, CaptainSoup said:

All that being said, there seems to be this underlying idea that MWs translates to "damage" that gives off a feeling that that is the only say you can kill anything right now. That to me seems like a game design/balance problem rather than a problem with our upcoming book. If 3.0 has turned into this killing game where the ones to do the most damage the fastest wins then that's a very boring game to play imo.

 

 

I think Frightful Touch is a nice example here that GW has hopefully learned. Just being auto-wound feels a bit weak because there's other factions like Kruleboyz that got the MW on 6 while that feels more appropriate for Nighthaunt than them tbh. But then you get an army like Krule where it's all about MW output and nothing else. I don't think it's good for balance and leads to an arms race.

I do wish we had a pip more rend here or there, because ghosts passing through armor just makes sense and it would really help units like Harridans. All in all, I hope this is a sign of a shift in design philosphy for GW, and not just haunt being left behind.

[lare2]

OK, I've a game Thursday (probably against Giants) and I think I've settled on the below. No idea how I'll get on but the only way I'll learn is by trying! Any c&c greatly appreciated. 

Scarlet Doom

1950, 1 drop, Hold the Line, charge triumph

Lady O: Shademist – 340

Krulghast – 150

GoS: Midnight Tome, Seal of Shyish, General: Ruler of the Spectral Hosts – 150

30 x Bladegheists – 525

30x Chainrasp – 330

3 SH – 125

3 SH – 125

Hex – 160

Cogs – 45

If can, go 2nd and fish for double turn 1-2.

Chainrasp and GoS defend backfield and auto cast cogs.

Lady O to target midfield with 1xSH, offering support.

Bladegheists to deepstrike with KGC and 1xSH offering support, the latter tanking for KGC

Hex running around doing stuff.

 

 

[Dogmantra]

On the topic of damage, don't forget that auto-wounds on 6s is pretty decent. If my maths is right, on a 4+/4+ attack, without auto wounds on 6s you're getting an average of 25% attacks through to the save. With frightful touch, a 4+/4+ goes to an average of 33% attacks through to the save. That's not to be sniffed at. Makes the chaff hit just a little bit harder. Death by a thousand cuts.

[Bayul]

6 hours ago, lare2 said:

30 x Bladegheists – 525

Wouldn't two units of 20 models be more efficient? Tomb Greatblades are still Range 1" on a 32" inch bases, so it's difficult to reach the enemy unit. You'd furthermore get more triggers for Wave of Terror.  

[Maxo Bug]

Wow! I'm super excited about these new rules. I really feel like they have captured the essence of the lore in the game-play now. Or at least looks like it is thematically driven, and makes sense.

Super excited too that a lot of things that I had on my "wishlist" for a new battletome came true, except for a couple (that being the Dreadblades going "back" to an elite unit, something like Chainghasts but for KoS, without being heroes -we have enough of those already-; and the glaivewraiths having two wounds each or being an attractive option -not seeing that right now, but I could be wrong-).

Even then, there was a lot of other unexpected stuff to make up for it, so the balance is positive for me.

Regarding the damage output, seeing people comment about the lack of mortal wounds and/or rend, I have something to say:

I think that you are just focusing on what's on paper, and explicitly said. Values and words (like mortal wounds), and forgetting the implications that are there:

With bonuses for the charge , with army wide retreat+charge, and high mobility, we are expected to be moving and charging constantly, like a tide of ghostly death, ethereal waves crashing time and time again. When you do so, you will be receiving lots of bonuses, but in the form of debuffs for the enemy. You may not have that extra point of rend on the warscroll, but make a 8-9 charge roll, and the -1 is there anyways for the enemy save. Doesn't matter where it came from. Even more, make another charge of those (MSU, here we go!), and suddenly the enemy has -2 to save PLUS your warscroll rend, making an effective -3 rend, for example.

When you can do this, and bypass your "to-wound" test on sixes, when you have an auto-wound attack, with -2, -3, -4 to the enemy save, it will feel much like mortal wounds against most armies.

And that's just damage output, not taking into account the enemy models lost by failed battleshock, which we may be seeing more often.

And, as many people have said, even then, killing is not everything in this game.

I look forward to try this battletome!

[Jabbuk]

I might've missed it in all the info that I tried to assimilate in the last few pages and with the leaks but, do the Craventhrone Guards have any synergy at all with Kurdoss? Or it's fluff only? I can't seem to find anything.

Edit: Just remembered they are battleline if Kurdoss is in the army. 

Edited May 1, 2022 by Jabbuk

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

I might've missed it in all the info that I tried to assimilate in the last few pages and with the leaks but, do the Craventhrone Guards have any synergy at all with Kurdoss? Or it's fluff only? I can't seem to find anything.

Edit: Just remembered they are battleline if Kurdoss is in the army. 

You are correct. And Kurdoss is Grieving Legion, and so are some of the other named characters like awlrach and reikenor. The legion is about tarpitting enemy units with horde units(since you often want to send in units of 20 or bigger here) and since craventhrone can easily drop in, maybe teleport around through certain and just sit behind scenery and shoot, you might have an idea of how you could play them together with other units in the legion of grieving.

[Vastus]

4 minutes ago, That Guy said:

You are correct. And Kurdoss is Grieving Legion, and so are some of the other named characters like awlrach and reikenor. The legion is about tarpitting enemy units with horde units(since you often want to send in units of 20 or bigger here) and since craventhrone can easily drop in, maybe teleport around through certain and just sit behind scenery and shoot, you might have an idea of how you could play them together with other units in the legion of grieving.

Oh snap, I hadn't noticed the Grieving Legion keyword on Kurdoss. Does that mean you *have* to take Grieving Legion if you want to use Kurdoss?

[Beliman]

9 minutes ago, Vastus said:

Oh snap, I hadn't noticed the Grieving Legion keyword on Kurdoss. Does that mean you *have* to take Grieving Legion if you want to use Kurdoss?

No. You can still take him in any other Nighthaunts subfaction, but he will not get any subaction bonus appart from the Grieving Legion

[Arzalyn]

18 minutes ago, Beliman said:

No. You can still take him in any other Nighthaunts subfaction, but he will not get any subaction bonus appart from the Grieving Legion

And there is no drawback in taking them outside of Grieving Legion, as none of the 4 subfactions bonus affect them anyway.

[Boggler]

I'm trying to figure out the value of Nagash now that we have new Allegiance Abilities.

Discorporate and Death Magic Incarnate won't stack on the same unit, so no 4++. Having two units with a 5++ is pretty good, and not worrying about the 12" Deathless bubble can't be celebrated enough.

CP is always going to be a thing. Hey, we're not Seraphon. Kurdoss, I'm looking at you to finally pull your weight Sir...

Does Nagash's Supreme Lord of the Undead actually effect anything for Nighthaunt now? What brings back models?

Olynder, once per battle D6 models(expensive if paired with Nagash)

GoS - 6+ Spell, no casting bonus in the NH book, you can take Master of Magic generic trait, and I'd highly suggest considering this one. Does it work with Nagash? I'm not so sure but anyways its a cool General for the army and at least offers a way to bring models back.

Spirit Torment? Meh, Heals 3 and maybe you'll get 1+1 models back.