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Jaskier last won the day on March 27

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Dracothian Guard

Dracothian Guard (7/10)



  1. Yeah, they're essentially the children of Slaanesh and Morathi. It makes a lot more sense in that context for Morathi to defeat them as compared to the Witch Hunters.
  2. I'm going to be running something very similar to this at my next tournament, mine will be a 2 drop (only Battle Regiment) and possibly subbing out the unit of 5 Blood Stalkers for 10 Witch Aelves/Sisters of Slaughter and change for a triumph or endless spell - but only if I can't get all 15 Blood Stalkers painted. I'm not convinced either way on unique characters taking spells from the universal spell lore or I'd probably be doing the same as you with taking the Entourage for Levitate. I used to pretty much exclusively run Hagg Narr at events, but retreat and charge is such a powerful ability - particularly in this type of list - that I'm much more excited for Khelt Nar than the classic Cauldronhammer style right now.
  3. Even with the extra bodies, I don't see a good reason to run Daemonettes at their current points cost over Hellstriders competitively. Summoning them in is another story, of course. To put it into perspective, you can get 30 Gors and 5 Hellstriders (for the Battleline slot) for 360 points versus the 420 points of 30 Daemonettes. The Gors hit less than half as hard as the Daemonettes, but if you're just after cheap bodies (who handily get a 4+ save in combat) I'd rather go down that route and have the spare change plus the extra cavalry unit.
  4. Am I wrong in thinking a Chimera isn't a bad unit to ambush with Lurid Haze? The big downside I see to ambushing is that it will limit what it can threaten with its breath attack (and that's a big downside, mind) but a monster with a 14" D6 mortal wound ranged weapon that adds +2 to charges and, as you noted, is a unit that actually benefits from Synessa's infinite range commands (+1 to-hit for its nasty but inaccurate melee profile and re-roll charges look super handy) stealing an objective after a charge because it counts as 5 models doesn't seem like a bad use of one. It flies too which can be a real pain for opponents trying to screen it out. The main advantage for ambushing would be keeping the fragile thing from getting shot to pieces before it can act; would definitely be situation-dependent. As for the discussion regarding Synessa, the thing to keep in mind about her is that it isn't just her implicit value increasing a lot with the 3.0 meta changes; she was always a decent if uninspiring looking unit stats-wise, but critically that was paired with great utility - the value of which is always hard to judge until you've actually tried her out. In 3.0 in particular, many armies are focusing their strategy on big, flying monsters with stacked saves - the perfect targets for an infinite range Pavane. I still want them to maybe give her a bonus to cast and definitely adjust the command part of her Voice rule, but at least with Coalition units we do have some edge cases where the latter half has some neat applications. Also, yeah; Glutos is still very good, even with the big points hike. He might not be a monster but his unique spell is absurdly good now that units can't run and retreat, he's still a great caster, he's insanely tough, has good damage output, etc. His aura arguably isn't quite as useful as it used to be but it's still a great defensive ability. There are far, far worse ways to spend 475 points. I'd argue he went from being easily our best (in-book) unit to just one of our best units - i.e. still at or around the top of the pack, just not as big a gap between him and the rest. I think Archaon's (rightfully) stolen the limelight from him a bit, but if you want a tough centrepiece then you really can't go wrong with Glutos.
  5. Another thing to note are the heroic actions; being able to do a guaranteed heal each hero phase for 1 or (more likely) D3 wounds means he's usually healing 2D3 wounds per battle round without accounting for prayers or spells. As Morathi can't use Heroic Recovery, you won't really have any competition on who gets to use it, and given how easy it is to get Gotrek to a 3+ save and even stack an extra bonus to ignore low Rend scores (All Out Defence plus Mystic Shield) he quickly becomes a nightmare to effectively handle for many armies.
  6. I've been doing lots of math for a whole bunch of non-leader units lately as the Coalition rules give us plenty of options with which to fill out our ranks and, naturally, understanding the value of each option is key to success. Let's just say I've had some very interesting results when trying to suss out what combat blocks I want to use - for reference, my damage comparsons (any references to damage are in terms of unsaved damage) have all been against a 4+ save baseline, and I'm assuming certain buffs in places where they will almost definitely appear, as well as 'optimal' unit sizes. I'm also taking into account how many models get to strike, as the new coherency rules make this a critical consideration; 6 Fiends are best 4 wide at the front with the back 2 turned sideways behind to maximise their claw attacks (it's a trade-off of 4 claw attacks VS 2 stinger attacks, in most cases the former is preferred) while 6 Dragon Ogors are best 3 wide all turned sideways so their 2" weapons can reach, as they can't strike from the back row if the front row are angled straight ahead. Lastly, I've ignored units like Ungors and Cultists as they aren't really 'combat blocks'. Starting with Hedonites - all of which have access to a double pile-in and innately have exploding 6s - a block of 10 Symbaresh is by far our best damage dealer, averaging 20+ damage (assuming re-roll hits) for 370 points. 5 Slickblades comparatively put out ~11 damage for 230 points (and 5 Hellstriders with whips average 4-5 for 135 points) and 6 Fiends (only 4 get to strike) average 11/13/16 damage depending on the Stinger interaction for 400 points. 20 Daemonettes (even in a block of 30 it's probable only ~20 will get to attack, but they retain the triple 6s longer) average ~9 damage for 280 points, and lastly 5 Myrmidesh average 5-6 damage for 160 points. On to Beasts, and this is where it gets a bit tricky, as they don't have too many "universal" or "easy" buffs compared to Hedonites and Slaves, and are the only ones without a double pile-in option. 6 Dragon Ogors (assuming they are using the 2" weapons, so all 6 get to strike but only 4 would get to use their foreclaws) are fairly mediocre as they average 8 damage (increasing to 10-11 if a Shaggoth is nearby) for 300 points. 10 Bestigors (using the triangle method so they can all strike) change a lot based on certain circumstances but are undeniably the best; off the charge is ~5 damage, on the charge is ~7 damage, charge plus attacking a unit of 10+ models is ~9 damage and so on for 135 points. 6 Bullgors (only 4 get to strike) average 11 damage (or closer to 14-15 if buffed by a Doombull) for 310 points. 20 Gors (we'll be generous with the triangle method and say 18 can attack) average about 5-6 damage for 150 points (but like Marauders, losing one model stuffs them up.) Next up is Slaves; these have a few ways to access re-rolling hits and wounds, as well as the option for a double pile-in. A block of 20 Chaos Warriors (again, using the triangle method so ~18 can attack) averages about 4-5 damage for 200 points. 10 Chaos Knights (2" lances means in the right formation they can all strike, but lose half the steed attacks) average 5/6 damage off the charge and ~13/14 damage on the charge for 340 points (and note they will usually have +1 to-hit from a mounted Chaos Lord, which spikes their damage up to 17/18.) 10 Chosen (triangles ahoy) average 14 damage for 290 points, 20 Marauders average about 9 damage for 180 points, but with the disclaimer that their damage drops off harshly as soon as they lose a single model. 3 Varanguard (using Daemonforged Blades) do ~8-9 damage, increasing to about 11-12 with Archaon present, and have a free one-use double pile-in - all for 280 points. So, there's a few rough conclusions we can draw from there; Marauders are specifically good if they can hit first to ensure they keep their Rend, meaning they are a prime ambusher in Lurid Haze. Bestigors are the best damage dealers per-point IF they get the ideal scenario with all their buffs (and handily don't need any supporting characters to do so) but are cursed with 32mm bases and 1" range. Fiends aren't great unless they're fighting units with 4+ wounds. Chosen are very nasty, but like the other 32mm units, getting them all to attack even with the triangle method isn't always a sure bet. Chaos Warriors are the worst by far, especially once you comsider they should be in blocks of 20+ and how awful the logistics of 1" reach is with 20 models on 32mm bases in the new edition - letting 18 strike in the numbers above was being very generous. Chaos Knights can struggle a bit too even with their 2" reach if you're not careful. Of course, damage isn't everything. Mobility is obviously important, where ambushing Marauders (in a sense) and Slickblades reign supreme, followed closely by Bestigors, Chaos Knights and Daemonettes. Bravery is an issue for all these units, but some much moreso than others; Bestigors, Marauders and Slickblades suffer the most when considering both how quickly they lose models and their Bravery scores. However, I'd argue durability is the other key factor here; to get a rough idea on how they fare, each of the aforementioned units will be divided by their base save and then rated by points-per-wound (ppw) in their class, as well as noting any additional defensive rules. The higher your base save, the better, especially with how Rend and save stacking are applied currently. 3+ - Varanguard; ~19 ppw (ignore spell effects on a 5+) 4+ - Chaos Warriors and Dragon Ogors; 10 ppw (Chaos Warriors have a 5++ against mortal wounds and conditional 3+ save in 10+ unit size) Chaos Knights; ~11 ppw (5++ against mortal wounds) Bestigors and Hellstriders; 13.5 ppw (Hellstridrers impose -1 to-hit on the charge) Chosen; 14.5 ppw, Myrmidesh; 16 ppw (conditional 3+ save against melee attacks) Symbaresh; 18.5 ppw (have an alternating/not always active 5++) 5+ - Gors; 7.5 ppw (conditional 4+ save against melee attacks) Slickblades; 11.5 ppw, Bullgors; ~13 ppw (can have a conditional 4+ save against melee attacks; considered suboptimal wargear choice) Daemonettes; 14 ppw, Fiends; ~17 ppw (are -1 to be hit by melee attacks, further conditional -1 to be wounded by melee attacks in 4+ unit size) 6+ - Marauders; 9 ppw (will normally have a 5+ save due to shields) The obvious standouts for raw toughness are Chaos Warriors in units of 20+, followed closely by Chaos Knights, Dragon Ogres and Gors - big meaty chunks of 4+ save (only in combat for Gors) wounds. I would argue based on the save differential that Bestigors and Hellstriders (4+) are the next most efficient alongside Marauders and Slickblades (5+). Unsurprisingly, outside of Slickblades and Myrmidesh to an extent, Hedonites units tend to fare the worst in terms of defensive efficiency, with Slaves offering the toughest individual options. Symbaresh are deceptive in that their durability is contingent on them having the 5++ active, as it increases their efficiency by a big margin. The big question then becomes how do these units fare if you apply all those metrics together? There's multiple considerations that will come down to how you build your list, such as numerous small combat units (alternating activations are their bane) versus fewer bigger blocks (more susceptible to getting focused down) the importance of speed and the fact that not everything needs to be fast, how 'independent' the unit is, whether it might eat up your crucial Inspiring Presence, the role difference between anvils meant to soak depravity and proper hard hitters, etc. With all that in mind, I've got some fairly general and early thoughts. First up, units of 10 Bestigors look ideal for 135 points, especially compared to Daemonettes; they can run and charge with ways to boost their movement, they do good to great damage for their points (conditionally) and are relatively good defensively. They need to charge but they will punch above their weight even in blocks of 10 and don't require much if any support. Symbaresh are our scariest combat unit, but they absolutely do not want to be hit first; you need to handle them with care. Slickblades look better than I thought now that I've compared them to all the other options; it goes to show how stupidly good they were before, though I still think 230 might be a bit much. Dragon Ogors are an interesting alternative to Chaos Warrior blocks, being much more potent (accounting for who gets to strike) but less durable - call me crazy but I actually feel like I'd rather 6 of these over 20 Chaos Warriors as they're plenty tough enough (especially if you give them +1 save) and the key difference is they aren't completely pillow-fisted. Marauders look good in Lurid Haze, otherwise Gors do the cheap bodies thing far better - and Ungor Raiders are inarguably the superior cheap screens. Chosen are pretty scary but harder to get stuck in than Bestigors, while Chaos Knights look really juicy if you keep a Sorcerer nearby for the 'free' +1 save. Fiends still look alright but with that points hike I feel like they will only really be worthwhile if you need specialist monster hunters. Varanguard might be interesting for the 'stacked' 2+ save, and are one of the few units Synessa can really help with thanks to her infinite range commands, but I feel like you're probably better off spending either a bit more for 10 Chaos Knights or a bit less for 5 Slickblades. Sorry for the long post and rambling thoughts, but figured I'd share just so you don't have to crunch the numbers yourselves I'll add more thoughts later.
  7. It's important to not undersell Dexcessa's increasing damage output over the course of a game, especially as you can get an effective 25" flying charging threat range for the price of a command ability to ensure she runs 6" and makes that turn one charge - and she gets to use a free command on herself every turn, meaning she gets two free commands per round, so it's not like she needs any extra help. Her being so insanely mobile with the ability to run or retreat and charge with a 12" flying move means she will always get where she needs to go, and her damage output graduates from decent to terrifying around about the turn three mark where she'll be moderately powered up and almost certainly have a summoned Keeper behind her. Unless you successfully cast an 8+ spell, an Exalted Chariot can't fly, and even then they're still not nearly as mobile. She's also a Bravery 10 monster, meaning she has a bunch of extra rules - including an easy D3 for Heroic Recoveries - and from what I've noted those two free commands you get each round make a huge difference in Lurid Haze so she can freely give herself +1 save as necessary and still let another unit get the benefit too. Because of her power up mechanic and how easy it is both to start it early and to get a summoned Keeper out, she's a relatively inexpensive threat that can completely dominate a flank solo and absolutely can't be ignored.
  8. I do like the idea of just plopping 20-30 Chaos Warriors down and forcing opponents to deal with them, ideally you'll either be ambushing them to hold the opponent in place or contesting a central objective. I wonder if 20 is enough so you can spend 200 points elsewhere, or if going the full 30 route is better. I guess it depends on what you want to complement them with. I'm also not surprised that good players have been finding success with Synessa; as much as her being a one-cast wizard with no bonuses stymies her effective casting potential (the player mentioned earlier even notes being lucky in successfully casting Slothful Stupor twice) and her infinite range command ability rule is on the gimmicky side (the best application I've seen so far is to let a Keeper use Excess of Violence on another unit and still receive +1 save/hit/etc from Synessa, or to use commands on a unit that has had its champion sniped out) it can't be denied that she's an absolute toolbox unit with access to 15 different spells, a potent ranged attack, good defensive stats, and she is unique in that she's both a sub-commander and a monster (which really helps fill out the Warlord/Command battalions.) She's just a nice utility unit that's got pretty strong hero-sniping potential between her Staff and the infinite range Pavane (between the two of them, you should fairly reliably snipe your average 5-wound hero - or you can spread the love in a single turn for Depravity generation.) Her and Dexcessa ultimately do play very differently while both having a role, with Dexcessa being our strongest combat character per-point assuming she manages to make it into combat in the first battle round (which should be extremely easy in 90% of all matchups and scenarios.) I prefer Dexcessa for the most part in my lists because I prefer the more aggressive target saturation style of play and get heaps of value out of her effective two free commands per round in Lurid Haze lists, but I have been considering running both more than before since Glutos received that massive points hike. I just really wish Synessa had an auto-cast at a value of 10 (she'd need a points hike though as it would be super strong in tandem with spells like Slothful Stupor) or more preferably either an extra cast or an inherent +1 to cast - and maybe some kind of alteration to her infinite-range command ability rule, as her 'Voice' rule just feels super underwhelming and really colours my view of her value. I hate to beat a dead horse as I've talked about it at length, but the more I think about him, the more I really think One-Eyed Grunnock might be a hidden gem this edition. We don't care much about losing 1 CP in our first hero phase - especially in an Invaders list - and having multiple ways to easily give him +1 to-hit and +1 save is terrifying for almost any opponent, though using him does preclude you from including Be'lakor (who is our other top ally choice.) Be'lakor and 110 points of spare change is almost certainly the better use of points overall, but there's something to be said for a 470 point 3+ save titan with 35 wounds that will absolutely demolish near anything it touches - especially now that it counts as 5 models for contesting objectives.
  9. Thanks for the advice! I do like the sound of two Warstompers when you frame it that way, and it also frees up points not just to go for the Triumph but also perhaps for a cheeky endless spell if taking the Glowy Lantern. Speaking of which, I just had a thought; would a Kraken-eater with the Glowy Lantern be able to select a spell from the universal spell lore in the core rules? I'm not sure on the legality of it, but a Kraken-eater with Flaming Weapons would be pretty beastly!
  10. Hey all, I'm wanting to get into Sons of Behemat and had a question; how would you build a 2000 point list with 4 Mega-Gargants, i.e. which Tribe and what mix of the different Megas would you use? The change to letting us run a whole army of Megas has completely sold me on the faction, and I'm super excited to get stuck into them. I was thinking Taker Tribe with 2 Kraken-eaters/1 Gatebreaker/1 Warstomper is probably the way to go and lets me run at least 1 of each type, but I'm curious to see how you would approach a quad-Mega list. Cheers!
  11. I do apologise if it seems like I've been a bit negative lately; I'm usually very positive and have been praising our book more than most since its release. The Myrmidesh thing is honestly the most frustrating thing that has happened with all the 3.0 changes so far, because I built 15 of them and in hindsight I really wish I'd made 10 of them into Twinsouls. The one thing that really differentiated them from Twinsouls was the re-roll saves, but a flat +1 is something Twinsouls have easy access to, meaning Twinsouls outperform them in every conceivable metric now (except cost.) There's just no good reason to run Myrmidesh over Twinsouls, and even if you want a 5-strong unit (where Myrmidesh shine) instead of a 10-strong unit (where Twinsouls shine) you're much better off just running Hellstriders instead now. It's just a shame, because Twinsouls were already the better unit, but previously Myrmidesh had a niche with their re-rolling saves; now, what is there to recommend them over Twinsouls?
  12. To answer your question re Be'lakor, no. Unique units can't take enhancements, that's why they had to clarify spell lores are still open to eligible unique characters - i.e. Be'lakor and Archaon can still use the spell lore in Slaves to Darkness because the Errata lets unique characters take it, but they can't take the 'core rule' spells like Flaming Weapons. Generally speaking, yes, as long as they have the right keywords to benefit (which the Marks usually give them.)
  13. Just run Hellstriders and Blissbarbs, because clearly GW doesn't want us running Myrmidesh or Daemonettes. A block of Twinsouls is a fine shout depending on the list.
  14. As the owner of 15 Myrmidesh, the change is a kick in the teeth. The 3+ save is nice but in most cases I'd much prefer the 4+ re-rolling with the option to boost to a 3+ re-rolling, as mathematically even a 4+ re-rolling is better than a 3+ without re-rolls - and the potential for a 3+ re-rolling at the cost of a spell/CP played into how even small 5-strong units of them could be a pricey but surprisingly good roadblock. Now, I see no good reason to ever run them over Hellstriders. Their damage isn't that much better, and they aren't that much more durable in combat anymore. The thing is, I'm perfectly happy with this change being universal, but Myrmidesh are definitely worse off than they used to be even before you account for the points increase they got which just looks even more confusing with this new information in hand. You can literally just pay a CP to give 10 Twinsouls the same defensive benefit Myrmidesh are designed around. Think about how absolutely pointless that renders them, because why would you ever not invest CP into Twinsouls? And let's be honest; it's not a great change for Chaos Warriors/Sorcerer Lords either, but at least those are still cheap; the change to Sorcerer Lords in particular means I'm reconsidering my old position of always running one next to Archaon. Speaking of Archaon, I love that he now just counts as a General, which makes him a bit easier to use in Invaders. Not being able to give him a 2+ re-rolling anymore is probably for the best, especially now that a Sorcerer Lord/Mystic Shield/All Out Defense (or the Lurid Haze ability) can give him a 2+ that ignores up to -2 Rend. The Shalaxi thing is just evidence that they applied a universal mandate, but forgot how it affects particular units. Sure, it still helps negate Rend (which the Heroes you want her to fight will have) but it's a nerf regardless to a model that is already incredibly niche. As for positives, yeah that Dreadful Visage change is pretty baller; it should give you 2DP per round (if you summon it in the first turn, or if it lingers from a previous round) while applying an incredible debuff where you need it. I also like the 2 in 4 for Slaves and 1 in 4 for Beasts letting us take an army comprised almost entirely of stuff that isn't in our book, though honestly despite some of the nerfs I think we still mostly want to look inward for filling certain roles in the army. From where I'm standing, it really comes down to whether you can skip Archaon, I think - he's just absurdly strong given how small of an increase he got relative to other heroes of his calibre.
  15. There's quite a few changes I saw that remove re-rolls, so it's in line with how they're treating other armies. Unfortunately, Myrmidesh were an aleady overpriced unit that got made more expensive AND weaker. Oh well. Still the coolest models.
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