Jaskier

Synessa down 30, Syll'Esske down 15 pretty much cancels out the increases Blisseys and Slicks copped, Sigvald even got rounded down to 200. Synessa looks like the big winner, she can't be a Locus but benefits from the new look out sir (works on unique heroes!) and the other two aforementioned named heroes also benefit too but got smaller price cuts. Sigvald looks so good now that he can't be targeted outside of 12".

Everything I've digested regarding the new Seraphon book is the KroakTrog bomb is well above the curve of what is otherwise a strong but fair faction, so it's fair to say you got a huge helping of the worst (to play against) / best (competitively) Seraphon has to offer now.

It's helpful you mention those two because they offer the easiest answer as to why Synessa's ability doesn't work as intended. Both the Death Shriek and Bloodwrack Stare refer you to the target unit. Synessa's staff does not, meaning you don't actually have a set target for it. Basically, it breaks the sequencing and allows for Synessa's staff to do things like bypass the Galletian Champion no-shooting rule (which prevents GCs from being chosen as targets) and, worst of all, shoot something up to 18" away using Unleash Hell - as you aren't targeting the unit you would otherwise normally be forced to, rather you are just picking a unit in range and resolving the ability. Other abilities like it all work properly because they refer you to the target unit so the sequencing still functions properly, including things like Stormdrake Guard and Dracoth breaths, but Synessa's is the odd one out and unfortunately they still have yet to fix it. To be super technical, and this is the agreed upon interpretation RAW - and thus why it needs an Errata regardless of if anyone will even dare to play it that way; to start the attack sequence at all for any missile weapon, you declare a target then you resolve the attacks or, in such cases like Dracoths, the ability. This is how every shooting attack including the missile-ability ones like the Death Shriek work. The problem herein lies in the fact you don't need to resolve Synessa's ability against that initially chosen target, rather you just pick a unit in range and resolve the effects against them. The technicality here is that though you have picked an initial target, the Staff ability does not require you to resolve the effects against that initial target, just any unit within range. This also rather hilariously means that while it can be used to bypass the GC no shooting rule, it doesn't work on them if a GC is the only unit within range and the Battleline unit that is protecting them is just outside Synessa's range, as the GC can't be chosen as the initial target. It's a very literally broken rule. There's a lot of good discussion on the subject in the Hedonite section of the AoS Coach discord if you want some better explanations of it (I'm on my phone or I'd be more elaborate.) It should be noted that clearly her ability is likely intended to work the same way others like it do, and the easiest way to fix the rule is to simply replace the second sentence with "Instead, your opponent must roll a dice for the target unit." That's the easiest way to prevent stupidity like resolving an Unleash Hell on some random Wight King chilling 18" away as his friendly Blood Knights charge Synessa somewhere else on the board. Suffice to say, you should not play it this way 😅

I guess good thing I got all that practice in with Pretenders already 😅 Interesting they didn't bother touching Synessa's weapon despite it being the thing most in need of an errata...

Movement isn't just about how fast you are, it's also important to consider any abilities that interact with it, and to remember that positioning is key above all else. The old Lumineth Fox spam list didn't win events by wiping armies, it did so by preventing them from doing anything meaningful by pinning them. You can screen out an entire armies' gimmick (the old Living City ambush, for example) with just three units of 5 Vindictors and controlling the turn order; source, the now three-time Australian Master did it to me and it forever altered my perspective of positioning importance even for elite armies. The old Sons of Behemat book, and to a lesser extent the new one, often won comp games by just playing the mission and engaging only if needed; to wit, I beat a horrific matchup for Sons - a pure Troggoth list with 12 of each type (meaning no save stacking) by just refusing to engage and building up an early points lead - I expressly told my opponent I didn't bother charging them because it would serve no purpose other than kill my own army quicker. The idea that you can boil all army balance down purely to maths, especially in an asymmetric game, is just laughable and completely removes so many internal and external factors from the balance equation.

It's 275, so it is competing with the Vengorian Lord more than anything else. The Vengorian is tougher and punchier, but has less utility - especially outside Avengorii. Realistically it probably comes down to what kind of point limit you have set aside for a beefy hero, as I personally would always go for either a Mortarch or Vampire on Dragon if I've got the extra points spare.

It's ok. It's not really a combat piece, not super tanky, but it is fast and has a cool ability to either have an extra cast or generate an extra CP. In theory you can make a Vampire Lord by sniping a small hero with its spell in conjunction with other damage spells, or at least force your opponent to dedicate their heroic actions to keeping an otherwise unimportant hero alive to prevent this. I like it well enough but that's because I've long been partial to the unit, losing its unique command ability has really hurt it in my eyes and I don't think it gained enough to make up for that. The double commands, potential hero sniping and value of either extra cast or CP are why you run it, and it's notable for being a fast 'medium' tier hero on a big base, so if you have any auras you can extend them really far.

I think the VLoZD will be at home mostly in Legion of Blood, not just for the ethereal artifact but also for the +1 attack on all weapon profiles while in combat (and +1 to cast/unbind/dispel when out.) Add All Out Attack and the heroic action to turn off ward saves and it's actually a really scary unit, and the maths definitely favor the lance here. Eight total (between the lance and maw) Rend 3 Damage 3 attacks on the charge is pretty darned good. It's also nigh unkillable outside of mortal wound spam thanks to the incredible new version of the Hunger rule.

Some of the early reactions to this book are hyperbolic and, just reading this thread, many are outright wrong. Anyone who thinks Dire Wolves are "deleted" are kidding themselves, it's a giant blob of wounds that you can now easily and cheaply give a 5++ to and pin things in place, and they now resurrect easier, heal easier and can even be taken above their starting size. Vrykos lists will love these. Then stuff like Neferata got a straight damage buff, no longer need to pay a CP for their -1 to-hit aura, and now benefit from the Legion of Blood rules, meaning she's always got either +1 to cast/unbind/dispel or +1 attack. Mannfred's weaker but his strike first on the charge and ability to counter-charge and give stuff like Grave Guard +1 attack make him really techy and actually better in some cases, and then Blood Knights have an incredible mortal wound output - go check the wording of the Riders of Ruin rule, you'll see what I mean. Also, anyone who looks at a 14w 3+ 6++ profile that can heal 6 wounds every time it fights the same way Glutos does and think it's made of paper is just flat out wrong.

The Temptation Dice say they can't be modified, so to my reading they function like Tzeentch Destiny Dice; if you offer them a 6 on a failed save roll even if the roll would normally be impossible, it still counts as a passed save, as Rend (what causes it to fail) is a modifier. I would assume it works that way as otherwise Temptation dice get real silly real quick when you smack units with minus to save stacks to bypass their armor completely.

I love the idea of GalleVet Fiends (if you want to reinforce them) sitting just behind a screen and using the season command for +1 attack to shred high wound targets with their stingers. The -1s, especially if any other -1 to-hit is active to fully deny AoA, can really mess with stuff like gargants, who +1 attack Fiends will absolutely shred. It's a cool unit, not quite as powerful as Slaangor with the same vulnerability to shooting but definitely more annoying for yoir opponent in melee.

It's never pleasant when people behave like that, a shame you had to put up with it. Nonetheless, thanks to you snd others for sharing your experiences with the book. I played a game yesterday against a cool Gitz list with 2x10 Boingrots, 6 rockgut troggs, 20 Shootas and a lot of characters and usual techy stuff like the 5+ ward-giving dudes. I gave the Pretenders a try to see if I liked how it functioned versus Invaders, and I found I quite liked it. I lost in the end due to forgetting rules, taking first but deploying as if to go second because I wanted to try stuff out before potentially losing anything, not really making the most of my moves, etc. It was very sloppy on my end but as far as playing to get a feel for things it was great.

The Sylvaneth matchup seems to be a tough one from what many others are saying, so no surprise there. Slicks do feel like the best bet as them and the daemon Seekers are so quick that the Sylvaneth can't hide from them all the time. Slower, more fragile units like Slaangors definitely feel rough into any shooting army, so against Sylvaneth in particular I'd agree with more Slicks or Seekers and so on for sure. Slaangors will excel into, like, Slaves to Darkness and Sons of Behemat, armies that in most of their lists won't really pressure the beasties early on.

That's not what I'm saying though. Not every army has strong shooting, and the Keeper is tough enough that it might not be worth it for them to shoot it over a different target, i.e. the Blissbarbs that are shredding them. In fact I'd argue most armies would have a hard time dealing with it easily without engaging it. Further, into melee-centric armies, a Keeper general in any of the three subfactions is not going to be pleasant for them to engage; a Crown-bearer or strike-last aura wielder with access to Phantasmagoria that hits like a truck or, a multi-command trait stacked Keeper that can nuke attacks through a spell, and; a 6" piling Keeper that can act as a nasty pinning piece. It will also win you games if you setup a good double pile-in for a big Euphoric Killers boost. I'm positing that it's not an auto include unless you have a good plan for it and to be aware that, like anything else, it's going to have some bad matchups.

In all honesty if you play against the Sharpshooters battalion it's going to be a better general than any of our small heroes, and in Pretenders specifically I'd argue running a Keeper that's not your general is a waste. If you want to run a Keeper that isn't the general, the other two subfactions do it better, but even in those it's still ideal to maximise them with the available traits. It's going to fall over to Ironblasters and 6-9 Raptors but that's life. I'm of the opinion Keepers aren't worth it unless you're giving them one of the potent mixes of traits and artifacts we can give them, and if you do put those on them you can get a high return on the investment for sure. Outside of that, it's a great summon if you're just swimming in Depravity or know it will pay for itself with the double pile-in for another unit. For reference, 16w 4+ 5++ is in many cases tougher than a Maw-Krusha once you factor save-stacking in.

Too early to say, though everyone agrees it's a much stronger book.

I'm number 3 all the way. Sure, it's not 100% ideal but I value both my and my opponents time, so I'm going the most user-friendly option every time.

We got us a quick little FAQ, it mostly clarifies that Strength of Godhood doesn't stack and fixed Dexcessa's wespon profile misprint.

@LeonBox sounds like a lot of bad dice luck, but it's telling that despite whiffing stuff like Shalaxi and some positional misplays that you pulled the win out in the end. Yeah @Tizianolol the contesting criteria is so easy to pull off to enable the LoP, he's a must if you run any decent amount of mortals.

If you manage to get a buffed Invaders Shalaxi in (meaning, whatever she's hitting has Hurler applied to it, she gets +1 attack from the Icon, and her spell is active) with the double pile-in from a friendly Keeper, I'm pretty sure she will on average instagib a Mega with no issues - just watch out for the suplex combos! Playing Sons at the moment myself, the Slaanesh matchup looks horrendous for Sons. So many debuffs and attack reductions for an army that absolutely has to make sure it hits when it gets the chance to, and an incredible amount of ways to neuter a single units' saves in conjunction with giant wound pools to farm depravity. Seriously, don't be surprised if you eclipse 36DP by the end of the first battle round.

The math on a 5++ is that you effectively need to do 50% of a models total wounds extra to kill it, so say if an 8 wound model has a 5++, you would on average need to deal 12 wounds to kill it - or 4 more (so half or 50% of 8 ) than if it didn't have a ward. Ergo a Keeper with 16 wounds and a 5++ requires an average 24 wounds to put down, so 8 more than usual. There's a few armies but a couple of them are either top of the meta or very common in the meta, so you absolutely need to plan around them. In all honesty, gunline Slaanesh lists will also be a big consideration soon enough. It's also worth noting the 5++ gives you protection against mortal wounds whereas the other options do not (except against mortal wounds that trigger off attacks, which the whip can reduce the total number of.) That's why the Crown, the Shardspeaker, Twinsouls, and the various spells we have to reduce or nuke attacks down are all going to be relevant in our lists, for exactly the situations you describe. Even without them, we've got the -1 to hit from DP, and further accessible -1s from Glutos and so on, then we have other tech like strikes last, retreat before the unit fights, taunts and so on. As such, I don't feel the Keeper needs the whip, as good as it is, as it only helps you win more at what Slaanesh is already the king of (i.e. nuking your opponents ability to damage you in melee) whereas the shield mitigates the one legitimate weakness the model has, and that's to shooting and magic. The nice thing is though is that I think the differences are marginal enough that they are all worth considering, even if the shield probably is my chosen default for now. I'm happy my Shalaxi has a shield, for instance, whereas before she felt so limited not having access to the hand.

The shield adds an effective 8 additional wounds, for what amounts to an effective 24 wound 4+ save model; stack Finest Hour, All Out Defense, Mystic Shield, etc and you can probably keep it alive for a good while against shooting. For that reason, I favor the shield, especially as regardless of which subfaction you go a Keeper is going to be a very high priority target for any opponent. The anti melee tech of the whip is great but the thing to note here is that we already have ****** loads of anti melee tech that even the Keeper itself can access (the Crown, certain spells, a few other artifacts, etc) so I feel like the shield stands out as the most well rounded option overall, especially as you won't be able to easily farm 36DP in every matchup.

Our Battlelline options got expanded in the sense Hellstriders are unlocked very easily (any Mortal general) and Seekers are now straight Battleline. As far as viability goes, Blissbarbs are incredible, straight up. The maths on Daemonettes is they actually outfight things like Chosen per-point once you hit 24DP (especially with a +1 attack source like the Icon with which their Euphoric potential blows past nearly anything else, making them a prime Excess target) and, once you hit 36DP (and you will after they smash something) are respectably durable in big blobs thanks to the 5+ Rally, -1 to hit and 5++. Seekers are comparable to the Daemonettes per-point but trade not reinforcing as well (1" range + cavalry bases) for infinite scaling (potential +1 attack every turn) but in practice will usually be a hyper-mobile screen that can threaten anywhere on the board and clog space. The only note against them is Hellscourge Hellstriders are looking real good too if you have them unlocked. To be frank, I've never considered running Daemonettes in my list for events before, but now I'm looking at a 20 or even 30 blob as a serious option for a 'second wave' combat block. That should tell you much better they got.

I think the best reason to run the shield is to deny alpha strikes, the Keeper only gets value out of the hand if it can sustain in combat and in the current meta there's a fair chance it never makes it without that 5++. The other thing is while I can see hitting 12DP on turn one and even 24 on turn one being achievable, 36 for the 5++ feels like a likely turn three activation unless you get a good matchup with a juicy EK target. You also have to consider you'll likely want to summon at least one unit just for objective caps so staying at/around 36 before the Keeper gets yoinked by something scarier seems unlikely. Depends on the matchups really I think.

The thing I keep repeating and thinking is that this army really has so many exterior abilities beyond the warscrolls and buffs/debuffs that will completely change the math and how valuable certain units can really be. It's going to be really vulnerable to getting alpha struck but it has so many tools that I honestly think almost every unit could well have play competitively just by virtue of bringing something to the table that the book can really expand and capitalise on. Like the durability of things looks suspect in some cases but the amount of -Attacks, -Hit, and even a few sprinklings of -Wound and things like corner tapping with Lords of Hubris, denying scoring through Hellstriders, completely shutting down movement with Glutos + Slothful or Pavane, numerous ways to turn off commands and so on will all add up. I've been seeing some say that this army could well have Nurgle beat for actual in-game durability if everything lines up and I honestly can't say they're necessarily wrong. This book is flower waiting to bloom, there's so many possibilities and ways it can go, it's the most excited I've been for an AoS book in years! Oh, I forgot to add to the last post, I'm fairly sure Slaangors are point-for-point the deadliest unit in the army once you buff them up. They are darned good if you can keep them alive.