AoS 3 New Rules Discussion

[Ganigumo]

6 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

More detail on this one:

"Reinforcements are 4 max in a 2000 point army. Take a unit from 10 - 20 is 1 reinforcement. Battleline units can be reinforces 2 times. None battleline only 1 time."

Terrible change. This makes the lists more samey, and benefits shooting more as shooting units have less benefit from being ran in large units, and you will always want to bring your best units as "reinforced". It also buffs attack priority again in a huge way, since more wounds was often the best way to ensure you could fight after taking a hit.

I bet we're getting the 40k combat priority where charging units fight first, then after things that fight first go the player who's turn it is picks the first unit to fight.

I just don't understand why they're restricting list construction so much, it seems like the objective of this edition was to kneecap hordes, but shooting and teleports have been controlling the meta, and those are getting massive buffs. Like flamers don't care at all about the reinforcement rules, because their buffs are all auras, and you don't need shooting units in big hordes for priority purposes.

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I feel like the reinforcements could lead to shenanigans for certain units, as mentioned above like 3 or 4 40 man Marauder units could be a problem for some armies to deal with but it could also fix issues such as Tzeentch flamers, Salamanders etc perhaps

You can already run 3 or 4 40 man marauder units, plus all Tzeentch flamer buffs are aoe and having multiple shooting units doesn't have the same downside as multiple units in combat (due to activation priority). The only thing this does to flamers is increase their drops, it doesn't decrease their effectiveness. They're also battleline in eternal conflagration anyways.

[Ganigumo]

3 hours ago, Reinholt said:

I feel like KO are the big winner of the reinforcement rules because they are still just taking boats. Unleash Hell Ironclad is still very much a thing.

KO win everything apparently. Unleash hell, reinforcement rules don't hurt them much, arkanauts are on 25s so they can still kinda screen, with screens nerfed teleporting is better, MSU doesn't hurt shooting damage nearly as much as it does melee damage, Frigates and Ironclads are monsters, their battalions aren't particularly strong but their artifacts are so they'll benefit big from core battalions, endless spell changes might be a buff to spell in a bottle, their command abilities are weak so they'll benefit from the new ones, unit cohesion matters a lot less for shooting units than for melee units, Thunderers get an extra shot when they unleash hell (since they get an extra shot when an enemy unit is within 3").
The only thing that might hurt them is the smaller board size, since they'll be forced to deploy a bit closer.

[Sleboda]

12 hours ago, Mcthew said:

how many FAQs will need to land on day one release

It's either a pile of FAQs or tell us all our books are junk. They did the latter once years ago. It did not go well.

[Kaylethia]

1 hour ago, Neverchosen said:

If I am reading this right I will have to convert my unit of 20 Chaos warriors with Sword and shield into 2 units of ten? Or a unit of 5 and one of 15? 

Because taking 20 would = 4 reinforcements which is more than they could take as a battle line unit 🤔🤯

 Just when I thought I was done with the army... 😢 

I see it as 'up to ten is free', so I think it would be one reinforcement in your example. 

Remains to be seen whether it'll be 1 reinforcement to add models equal to your minimum unit size, or if reinforcement starts counting at 10 models and allows you to add ten more.

[SorryLizard]

5 hours ago, Reinholt said:

I feel like KO are the big winner of the reinforcement rules because they are still just taking boats. Unleash Hell Ironclad is still very much a thing.

The -1 to hit though is fairly important as they already have quite a few 4+ scattered among their weapon profiles. It's a fairly dramatic swing in odds. Still better than not shooting the extra time at all, of course, just they won't be at peak output.

Edited June 10, 2021 by SorryLizard

[Beliman]

6 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

KO win everything apparently. Unleash hell, reinforcement rules don't hurt them much, arkanauts are on 25s so they can still kinda screen, with screens nerfed teleporting is better, MSU doesn't hurt shooting damage nearly as much as it does melee damage, Frigates and Ironclads are monsters, their battalions aren't particularly strong but their artifacts are so they'll benefit big from core battalions, endless spell changes might be a buff to spell in a bottle, their command abilities are weak so they'll benefit from the new ones, unit cohesion matters a lot less for shooting units than for melee units, Thunderers get an extra shot when they unleash hell (since they get an extra shot when an enemy unit is within 3").
The only thing that might hurt them is the smaller board size, since they'll be forced to deploy a bit closer.

1. Frigates and Ironclads are Behemoths, not MONSTER.
2. Thunderes can't be packed as 20 (Alexander Kron list-style).
3. Batallions were used to go first (really important for KOs).
4. Spell in the bottle is the main problem (with WLV). Lucky one! They are changing Endless Spells Warscrolls!!
5. Our ELITE unit (Thunderes) with Unleash Hell are going to do 5 wounds with Riffles to 4+ saves (4+/4+hit and wound...). Something that you could play around giving Mythic Shield (+1save) to lose 3 or 4 wounds. And we lose +1 atk with Unleash Hell if our dudes are in an Skyvessel (denying +1save and -1 to be hit).
6. Best way to use Unleash Fury is on Thunders with Specialist weapons. That means less dmg at long range (18") and their bonus are lost if embarked on an skyvessel (losing again +1save and -1 to be hit). But still, that's more dmg than an Ironclad.
7. And there is a rumor that you can only Fly High 1 skyvessel per round, that will change a lot of lists (Imho, that's good for KOs, more gameplay and new lists= good).

Btw, I'm with you that KOs are not touched by Reinforcement Rules. Unleash Hell seems our best ability to counter Monstrous Rampage, 1 conditional Ward saves and no Endless Spells/New Magic/New Priest abilities.

And remember that we still don't know any Shooting Phase CA Reaction!!!

Edited June 10, 2021 by Beliman

[Gaz Taylor]

+++ MOD HAT ON +++
Just a nudge but I’ve had to remove a few posts as they were getting insulting. Just remember this forum is for everybody, so treat everybody with respect

[Zappgrot]

On 6/9/2021 at 1:32 AM, dirkdragonslayer said:

While it may feel like cheating, GW is probably doing this to counteract spaghetti line formation. IIRC they implemented it in 40k because of 30 conscripts in thin line bubble wrapping eachother requiring multiple turns of charges. These layers made it difficult for melee units to reach shooting units like Broadsides or Leman Russ tanks. With smaller boards and a greater emphasis on shooting this edition (from what rules we have seen so far) they are probably doing this so I can't put large narrow lines of spearmen to completely block off archers/artillery.

Personally I am excited to see my Dankhold do more to disrupt people's formations if they aren't careful.

Peronally i think the sollution to  the shooting problem is. To nerf shooting. Not buff it even more and then nerf melee combat bij adding rules that make it much harder for melee units to get all the models in mellee.  Screens are annoying as hell. But would not be a problem if shooting played only a supporting role.  And while the new coherency rule stops screens some what. It also make melee units even more ineffective. while not impactin shooting at all  

[whispersofblood]

21 minutes ago, Zappgrot said:

Peronally i think the sollution to  the shooting problem is. To nerf shooting. Not buff it even more and then nerf melee combat bij adding rules that make it much harder for melee units to get all the models in mellee.  Screens are annoying as hell. But would not be a problem if shooting played only a supporting role.  And while the new coherency rule stops screens some what. It also make melee units even more ineffective. while not impactin shooting at all  

Nothing you have just said is actually true...

[JonnyTheKing]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

You can already run 3 or 4 40 man marauder units, plus all Tzeentch flamer buffs are aoe and having multiple shooting units doesn't have the same downside as multiple units in combat (due to activation priority). The only thing this does to flamers is increase their drops, it doesn't decrease their effectiveness. They're also battleline in eternal conflagration anyways.

Yeah I agree, but what I’m getting at is with more smaller units that need more reinforcement points to reinforce to a level able to deal with these threats it may increase the power level of certain units who have a harder time getting countered now 

[SchleuderMann2]

7 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Yeah I agree, but what I’m getting at is with more smaller units that need more reinforcement points to reinforce to a level able to deal with these threats it may increase the power level of certain units who have a harder time getting countered now 

I agree with you. I have often played full buffed Archaon in Reapers of Vengeance and right now i cant think of anything that would stand a Chance against him now that units all in all will be smaller

[whispersofblood]

9 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

Yeah I agree, but what I’m getting at is with more smaller units that need more reinforcement points to reinforce to a level able to deal with these threats it may increase the power level of certain units who have a harder time getting countered now 

 

1 minute ago, SchleuderMann2 said:

I agree with you. I have often played full buffed Archaon in Reapers of Vengeance and right now i cant think of anything that would stand a Chance against him now that units all in all will be smaller

Well, 1 it was never a sound strategy to engage an opponent where they are strong. But, 2 lots of these sorts of armies are going to be the most impacted. See 2*20 HGB.

On the other hand concerning units like Archaon, the fact that they can engage with expensive units is what makes them good. If they are killing 90 pts of Chaos Warriors a turn they are much less attractive as their ability to pact the score board is much lower. 

You really need to a) invision multiple armies impacted by these rules. b) play a game in your head with them

These changes also make the god models feel more godly as there will be fewer units rolling around with such high concentration of points and therefore comparable impact. I also for see most of them (and monsters in general) lasting the whole game which is cool in the later turns. 

[mojojojo101]

I think to some degree, that there will be more, smaller units on the board encourages the idea that if your hammers go into combat they need to kill whatever it engaged in one round of combat.

With more targets on the board getting bogged down in extended engagements feels even more punishing.

 

[Magnus The Blue]

Don't forget that All Out Defence + (rumoured) New Mystic Shield + There Finest Hour are a nerf to most shooting armies.  Having most of your damage focused on one Phase per round means you're generally going to be punching through much better saves.  Sure, doesn't effect LRL too much but basically every other shooting army will do less damage when their number 1 priority unit is at least +1 save (declared after you start shooting them).

The new victory points system is also likely to encourage more aggressive/combat approaches.  

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

8 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Don't forget that All Out Defence + (rumoured) New Mystic Shield + There Finest Hour are a nerf to most shooting armies.  Having most of your damage focused on one Phase per round means you're generally going to be punching through much better saves.  Sure, doesn't effect LRL too much but basically every other shooting army will do less damage when their number 1 priority unit is at least +1 save (declared after you start shooting them).

The new victory points system is also likely to encourage more aggressive/combat approaches.  

LRL Sentinels are not really mass damage dealers, anyway. They are utility units that destroy heroes at range, and they are very good at that. But they won't shoot your low save, high wound trash unit blocks off the table efficiently.

[Scurvydog]

10 minutes ago, Magnus The Blue said:

Don't forget that All Out Defence + (rumoured) New Mystic Shield + There Finest Hour are a nerf to most shooting armies.  Having most of your damage focused on one Phase per round means you're generally going to be punching through much better saves.  Sure, doesn't effect LRL too much but basically every other shooting army will do less damage when their number 1 priority unit is at least +1 save (declared after you start shooting them).

The new victory points system is also likely to encourage more aggressive/combat approaches.  

Another factor is also the talk about a command to move d6 in the enemy move phase. If this can be done at the end of the phase, that could force armies like KO to be 6" closer than their max range to the unit they wish to shoot, to ensure the opponent does not retreat out of range for 1 CP. 

This also goes the other way around and can really be a pain for a unit ending up 7" from a boat, which then retreat and rolls a 4 making the following charge nearly impossible. 

[Zappgrot]

5 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Another factor is also the talk about a command to move d6 in the enemy move phase. If this can be done at the end of the phase, that could force armies like KO to be 6" closer than their max range to the unit they wish to shoot, to ensure the opponent does not retreat out of range for 1 CP. 

This also goes the other way around and can really be a pain for a unit ending up 7" from a boat, which then retreat and rolls a 4 making the following charge nearly impossible. 

I think the second effect is going to be much more significant then the first.  Retreating all targets outside of shooting is harder and less impact full then failing a charge. I would not mind losing shots if the opponent increases the distance between me and the their units. The only things that really need to die are things on objectives and thing that can charge the gun line. Moveing units back saves them but also makes them less of a problem. 

[Zappgrot]

I hope that making unit smaller and single model hero's/ monsters stronger does not lead to hero hammer. I find that incredibly boring. I think warhammer 4-5th edition ruined that for me for ever. 

[PrimeElectrid]

14 minutes ago, Zappgrot said:

I think the second effect is going to be much more significant then the first.  Retreating all targets outside of shooting is harder and less impact full then failing a charge. I would not mind losing shots if the opponent increases the distance between me and the their units. The only things that really need to die are things on objectives and thing that can charge the gun line. Moveing units back saves them but also makes them less of a problem. 

Timing of this CA will be crucial. If it is end of the movement phase, does the rule that controlling player dictates order of simultaneous abilities? If so then controlling player can force opponent to use this CA before their end of movement set ups (such as SCE Scions).

[JonnyTheKing]

1 hour ago, whispersofblood said:

 

These changes also make the god models feel more godly as there will be fewer units rolling around with such high concentration of points and therefore comparable impact. I also for see most of them (and monsters in general) lasting the whole game which is cool in the later turns. 

I reckon it could lead to a big monster heavy meta potentially 

[Koala]

In general i am a great proponent of "try it first, complain later or never".

And i can certainly see something interesring or understandable in most previewed changes.

 

But they DO seem to push AoS into the direction of 40k. ( Higher complexity, more "free rules", also rules/text overlap)

And quite frankly 9th Ed. has caused me and half my friends to stop playing 40k. 

To call me worried would be an understatement.

[Marcvs]

8 minutes ago, JonnyTheKing said:

I reckon it could lead to a big monster heavy meta potentially 

the interesting part about this is that Unleash Hell is a great counter vs monsters, as they generally have a high cost per wound and bracketing them before combat might greatly reduce their effectiveness

[PrimeElectrid]

3 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

the interesting part about this is that Unleash Hell is a great counter vs monsters, as they generally have a high cost per wound and bracketing them before combat might greatly reduce their effectiveness

Caveated though by smaller unit sizes making it harder to do this.

Edit: to add, I think this is a good thing. I am starting to see a system with meaningful decisions around unit type and size. A few units still stand out as problematic but that list is shrinking and the wider picture is improving.

Edited June 10, 2021 by PrimeElectrid

[Mcthew]

30 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

Caveated though by smaller unit sizes making it harder to do this.

Edit: to add, I think this is a good thing. I am starting to see a system with meaningful decisions around unit type and size. A few units still stand out as problematic but that list is shrinking and the wider picture is improving.

Not sure unit sizes will have a big impact though... A unit of 20 hand gunners is still a potent threat with Unleash Hell, and that could be just one reinforcement point. 

Still getting my head around the reasons for the unit sizes. Is the anti-blob rule to reduce horde meta? Is it to reduce one/fewer drops happening in the game? Is it to force people to consider battalions to reduce drops? Is it because they're reducing the board size? Do they think it will make AoS a skirmish game?

Or is it a cost thing? Will the number of models in a box go down while the price stays the same or goes up to make you think this is still good value for money on the tabletop?

So many questions, and this is the first jump into the unknown we've experienced with AoS since it's conception. But it just feels like the wrong direction: blobs and more epic encounters were never a problem with AoS to begin with. So if it ain't broke why change it? And not fix the stuff that is broken?