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Magnus The Blue

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Everything posted by Magnus The Blue

  1. I'm thinking of getting my Underguts out again for 3.0 and was wondering if anyone has tried out Blocks of 12 Leadbelchers yet? I love the idea of all out attack for 12D6 3+/3+/-1 shots and enough unleash hell threat to scare off anyone. But the coherency rules really hurt their combat potential.
  2. Had my first two games with 3 Breaker list last night. Deliberately took sub-optimal artefacts to keep it fun.: Breaker Tribe: Fierce Loathing (Bossy Pants) Gatebreaker, Old and Gnarly + Kingslayer Cowl Gatebreaker, Arcane Tomb Gatebreaker Mancrusher Mancrusher Emerald Lifeswarm. Must say it was great fun. Played twice against Thunderlizards (4 stegs, Engine of the gods, Basilidon, Carnisuar and some skin buff heros). Tossing Gatebreaker rocks at garrisoned hero's was probably my favourite trick, +1 to hit and +1 damage makes them an absolute menace. Emerald Lifeswarm was ok, cast once each game and healed 5 each time. Situationally a bit better than Mystic Shield but wouldn't write home about it. Not sure if there is a better choice with the leftover points. Won both games relatively comfortably (Making Territory and Tooth and Nail) and didn't really miss the third Mancrusher or Kracken Eater Kick. The RAW power (and decent shooting) or 3 Gatebreakers is great, the only really problem with the army is that it's a bit dull with only 2 warscrolls.
  3. Eventually making some more progress on my Sons of GorkaMorka. Skin is done for now (needs scars and warpaint), so starting to work on the details now. I've just signed up for the Warhammer World Team event at the end of next month and going to bring these big lugs to motivate me to finish them. Going to be ice themed bases, so starting to play with some GSW liquid frost, great stuff. On the tactics front, I'm not coverting any more any time soon so going to be rolling with Three Megas and Three Mancrushers, but not decided at all which flavour or which tribe. Only thing I'm set on is at least one Wizard (the Mega-Prophet) so Glowy Lantern or Arcane Tomb are a must. First question for the community, with 3 Megas should I run the Mancrushas individually or in a big mob? Definitely advantages to either and really struggling to make up my mind.
  4. Had my first full 2k game with Bonesplittas a few days ago and they didn't disappoint. In Icebone every thing unit is a threat, so I used 2*4 big stabbas as a distraction while my Maniacs ran riot (one unit of 10 on Boars and 2 units of 10 on foot). 10 Boarboy Maniacs with Glowy tusks ripped through one flank single handed, even with only 8 getting in to combat (silly coherency) the damage output is insane. Even the Arrow boys where beating things up in combat. The Waggog mask also shone, taking down his general and a Celestant Prime. Definitely less tricksy now, but tonnes of Orruks charging into anything they can reach just feels right.
  5. Quick one today. What's the average cost (in terms of wounds take) for taking down different targets with a Waggog's Mask Target wounds Rolls to kill Mortals taken 6+Ward 4+ Ward 5 3.75 3.208333333 2.673611111 1.604166667 10 7.5 7.583333333 6.319444444 3.791666667 15 11.25 11.95833333 9.965277778 5.979166667 20 15 16.33333333 13.61111111 8.166666667 So if you're rocking Glowing Tattoos you can happily through out 10 mortals wounds a turn if you've got some decent healing near by (heroic action, Wardocs or Emerald Lifeswarm would do it).
  6. Yup, that's it. First roll is a free-be.
  7. In big Waaagh Savage Orruks really suffer losing their two bit damage bonuses (Spirits and Icebone) so the best units too include are those that don't rely on these abilities: Wargog Prophet: as mentioned by others, also the Mask is cool and potentially game winning. Wardoks: 80 points caster than can dance if your opponent is dominating magic. I don't think an army in the game has a cheaper caster, let along one that's still useful when Naggash or Teclis are about. Big Stabbas: cheap, big damage, 3" range and some chip damage when they die (against monsters this can pack quite a punch). They are slow now without run and charge but at 40 points a model, such great value. MSU very useful for building up Waaagh points. Big Boss: 65 point hero with solid damage output and is basically a free activation. Again very useful for building up Waaagh points. Wierdboy Maniac: Fast cheap wizard, Ironjaws would kill for one of these. Handy for keeping up with your Mawcrusha/Goregruntas to keep Mystic Shield up. Arrow Boys: reasonably cheap, hard to kill objective holder that can through minor shooting to finish off units or draw out All out defence. Even OK in combat now with 2 attacks each (3+/3+ once you've power up Waaagh). So more than a few reasonable options.
  8. Yeah 3+ is more common now-a-days but 5+/6+ aren't unheard of, which is why I use 4+. One day I'll do a proper distribution model to allow for this variation, but not today. I've ignored the War-chater buff for simplicity with these examples as things get very complex very quickly when you allow for all the various buff options. Unless your playing 3+ war-chanters and/or your opponent lacks mobility having that buff up isn't guaranteed. I've often Alpha struck or outflanked Iron jaws to get favourable combats with unbuffed units. For me Brutes are their for an easy to use reinforced unit to run up the middle of the board, take centre and counter attack as necessary. 5 Orruk units just feel worse than Gruntas.
  9. I did the maths and got similar but slightly lower results. Obviously this is the most swingy thing ever, bit the potential to toss out 20 mortal wounds+ is great for mind games as well as actually sniping stuff. The fact that this damage is in the hero phase is also great (when in range) as it lets you easily free up units that are trapped in combat. 6+ ward Ward 0.1666666667 Wounds 7 Rolls before self destruction 7.2 Damage 10.93333333 5+ Ward Ward 0.3333333333 Wounds 7 Rolls before self destruction 9 Damage 13.33333333 4+ Ward Ward 0.5 Wounds 7 Rolls before self destruction 12 Damage 17.33333333
  10. Yes, took into account the Gore-choppa and Smash/Claw on the Brutes +1 to hit brings the Brutes up to 8.76 damage a turn and 18.26 points/melee damage, so slightly better than Gore Gruntas, but situational. I included mount attacks in the Gruntas calculation. Absolutely, the Mawcrusher is much more likely to get buffed up for lots of reasons (both are great really).
  11. Arrow boys are in a weird place right now. They have gone from a hard to kill shooting unit to a true hybrid: lots of wounds, solid combat and ok ranged attacks. Getting double the attacks in combat means that they are actually a threat in combat (especially in icebone) but without Brutal Beast spirits just can't do a worthwhile Unleash Hell. I'm going to try units of 10 to camp objectives and do chip damage as needed but also think they would work on-mass in Bonegrin: one unit of 30 for All Out attack and lots of 10 Orruk units. One of the things I'd struggling with is who to use as a general. Big Boss seems obvious for Great Hunter but then your stuck with a fragile general who only really does anything when in the thick of the fighting: so will proble die unless you hide him in the back like a grot. Prophet with Master of Magic seems solid, but I want my Prophet to be shooting lasers from his eyes, not casting spell or worrying about staying alive. Which leaves use with Wardoks (5 wounds!) or Wierdnobs who both feel too weedy to be the general and mean no Great Hunter. Humm, hard choices.
  12. I love me some stats, so going to pop together interesting insights I've found pop doing statistical analyses with the new book. I'll add bits and bobs that I find interesting, but happy to take requests for statistical analyses. Obviously these examples will never tell the whole story of how units perform on the battlefield so always thing about the winder context. PS: I do all the maths from first principles in a basic spreadsheet to avoid the ambiguity and assumptions in many of the commonly used Math-hammer tools. First one that surprised me: A Sludge Raker averages more damage than a Mawcrusher! Really surprised me when I realised it. Without any buff except it's own Venom a Breakerboss on Sludgeraker does 14 wounds against a 4+ save. A Megaboss on Mawcrusha (Gorhacker) averages only 13.72, despite costing 165 points more. Sure the Megaboss is faster, harder to kill, easier to buff and has some brilliant special rules, but still an interesting finding. Breakaboss on Troggoth isn't far behind either 12.22 damage when yanking the Troll's chain, but that's even more of a stretch to compare since melee damage is basically the only thing he can contribute and 5" more makes he hard to bring to bare. Still tempted to try a list with 3 of them though just to unleash bezerka troll madness. Brutes are less effective in combat than Goregruntas Ignoring the difference in movement and special rules, point for point, Goregruntas are more efficient than Brutes, even with their fancy new spears. As you can see bellow (damage calcs Vs4+ save) not much in it, but considering Goregruntas are more than twice as fast it a surprise they are similar, let along more efficient. Makes those Bloodtooths look even more tempting to me! Unit name Options +Buffs Cost Number wounds/model save (X+) Ward Melee Damage Shooting Damage (Vs 4+) Effective wounds Cost/EW Cost/Melee Brutes Hackas 160.00 5.00 3.00 4.00 0.00 6.78 0.00 30.00 5.33 23.61 Gore-Gruntas Choppas 150.00 3.00 5.00 4.00 0.00 7.41 0.00 30.00 5.00 20.25 Maniac Boarboys are the most efficient damage dealer across all Warclans units Not a big suprise, but interesting none the less. Until you start using buffs from heros, other units and command points you just can't beat a unit of 5 charging Icebone Maniac Boarboys for ruining someone's day. Averaging nearly 6 mortal wounds and just over 5 from failed saves, nothing is safe. Their points cost per melee wound caused (per turn against 4+ save) is the lowest of any unit in the book at 13.13. Unit name Options +Buffs Cost Number wounds/model save (X+) Ward Melee Damage Shooting Damage (Vs 4+) Effective wounds Cost/EW Cost/Melee Maniac Boarboys Icebone + Charge 145.00 5.00 3.00 6.00 6.00 11.04 0.00 21.60 6.71 13.13
  13. Coherency is not that bad for smaller oval bases (not so much for Gorgruntas), just run around in two ranks and when you charge you can point the tips of the bases together. Unless your facing something that can snipe specific models you can get at least 9 models into combat (out of 10) while not risking a losing coherency against casualties (basically one model behind the lines at one end of the unit to protect against it).
  14. For regular Savage Orruks, yes. But these are very much the worse case scenario and I think that in a competitive setting everyone will be taking their clan dependant battleline over Savage Orruks anyway. In their respective Clans Morboyz, Boarboys and Arrowboys are sufficiently better than the loss of monster hunters isn't a big deal.
  15. Ok, last one of these. Going to start focusing on how to get the most out of the new book rather than doing more before-after analysis. So though I'd got for the elephant in the room: normal Savage Orruks. Points hike and loosing than bonus attack for a horde (15+) is a bitter pill to swallow. But +1 to wound on the charge and built in 5+ save does help compensate. Here are the numbers Unit name Options +Buffs Cost Number wounds/model save (X+) Ward Melee Damage Effective wounds Cost/EW Cost/Melee Damage Savage Orruks 2.0 Spears, Melee Save, horde bonus 130.00 10.00 2.00 5.00 6.00 3.88 36.00 3.61 33.55 Savage Orruks 2.0 Spears, horde bonus 130.00 10.00 2.00 6.00 6.00 3.88 28.80 4.51 33.55 Savage Orruks 2.0 Spears, Melee Save, 130.00 10.00 2.00 5.00 6.00 2.63 36.00 3.61 49.52 Savage Orruks 3.0 Spears, Icebone, Charge 165.00 10.00 2.00 5.00 6.00 5.83 36.00 4.58 28.29 Savage Orruks 3.0 Spears, Icebone 165.00 10.00 2.00 5.00 6.00 4.67 36.00 4.58 35.36 If your not into maths the two last columns at the end are the important ones: points costs per effective wound (how many points it costs you per zero rend wound it would take to kill the unit) and cost per Melee damage (how many points it costs you on average for each wounding hit the unit causes in combat per round). For both, lower is better. The main story is that their isn't much difference. Old Orruks were more survivable in combat, but obvious new ones are a better target for save stacking. New Orruks actually do more damage in combat (all calcs assume attacking a 4+ Save enemy) despite losing 1/3rd of their attacks. I'm not going to argue they got better, 165 points is just too much for what they do and I've not done the calcs for the old horde discount (which everyone lost). but they didn't get much worse, can operate effectively in units of 10 now and I think a minor points tweak will see them right.
  16. I agree with almost everything you're saying. The damage/attrition stats are only part of the picture, the main point I am trying to make with that we have lost a lot, absolutely but we have also gained a lot. The Arrow boys Vs Piggies was just something I did because someone asked for it, so much difference between the two when on the tabletop that it's hard to draw any conclusions from it. I do not think we'll ever be an S Tier army (without silly points reductions) but I do think there is more than one solid B+,A- level army in the Bonesplitters. If they FAQ to allow us to ally in IronJaws/Kuelboyz, we're get another bump in power to (Sloggoth is the most obvious addition). Lack of speed is definitely a worry, but that fact we can always pop in Great Hunter and 3.0's smaller board helps a lot. I do hate that we lost Breath of Mork specifically (Kunning Beast spirits is annoying, but we have Mystic Shield). I think the main advantage of Icebone isn't actually the raw damage output, it the fact that any of our units can now do meaningful damage to even the most heavy armoured enemy, which means less reliance on Big Stabbas/Rogue Idols. Combined with less reliance on heros (mainly because they are worse), I think it means our armies will be much more horde like (although likely multiple minimum units rather than a few big blobs) swapping the board with dangerous naked Orruks. Quite different to what we are used to in from 2.0 but more like how I imagine Bonesplittas fight in the mortal realms. Worth pointing out I definitely think normal Savage Orruks are over costed, but I think it's the only one of our units that is. Will do some more points based efficiency Stats over the coming days, but for now I need to do some work
  17. Oh yeah, lots of moving parts both ways. For the Arrow boys it's pulling off curse against a juicy target (50/50 even of you are in range) without it the arrow boys are only doing about as much damage as one unit of charging Maniacs.
  18. Good idea So assuming Beast spirits and curse both happen for the old Arrow boyz. Total costs 390 + 85 = 475points In terms of piggies, lets so 3 units of 5 Maniacs: 435 points. Against 4+ saves: Arrow boys are doing 11.25 failed saves plus 15 mortals wounds: 26.25 damage total 3 units of Pigs (charging + icebone) are doing 19.875 failed saves plus 13.25 mortals: 33.125 damage total Piggies doing about 26% more damage Against no save: Arrow boys are doing 22.5 failed saves plus 15 mortals wounds: 37.5 damage total 3 units of Pigs (charging + icebone) are doing 39.75 failed saves plus 13.25 mortals: 53 damage total Piggies doing about 41% more damage. Obviously lots of dependencies on both sides and it's a bit apples Vs oranges but interesting to see the comparison between them in near ideal circumstances.
  19. Here is my first unit analysis: Big Stabbas. They lose the d6 vs monsters and run and charge, but become defensively much better (big points drop) and offensively much better (except against monsters). Again assuming 4+ save (better saves make the stats better for new icebone) Unit name Options +Buffs Cost Melee Damage Effective wounds Cost per EW Cost/Melee Defencive change Offensive change Offensive change V Monsters Big Stabbas Old 110.00 4.44 11.52 9.55 24.75 0.00% 0.00% n/a Big Stabbas Old, Vs Monsters 110.00 7.78 11.52 9.55 14.14 0.00% 42.86% 0.00% Big Stabbas New 80.00 4.44 11.52 6.94 18.00 27.27% 27.27% -27.27% Big Stabbas New, Icebone 80.00 4.67 11.52 6.94 17.14 27.27% 30.74% -21.21% The lack of run and charge will definitely be felt but they are points for point nearly 1/3rd much more survivable and doing more damage Vs non monsters.
  20. This is very true. We could get through against all but the best casters (easy to get +3 or better to cast), but all it takes is Naggash or Telcis to ruin your day.
  21. Here is a more detailed breakdown for the same situation 4+ to hit and wound: % chance Relative difference to other scenarios Hit Wound Failed save Doing damage S1 S2 S3 S4 S1: No bonus 50.00% 50.00% 50.00% 12.50% 0.00% -10.01% -25.00% -43.75% S2: Old Icebone 50.00% 50.00% 55.56% 13.89% 11.11% -0.01% -16.67% -37.50% S3: New. Not icebone 66.67% 50.00% 50.00% 16.67% 33.33% 19.99% 0.00% -25.00% S4: New icebone 66.67% 50.00% 66.67% 22.22% 77.78% 59.99% 33.33% 0.00% As you can (hopefully) see, even compared to old Icebone (which basically cost you an artifact to use), you've still got a 60% increase in damage now for the same attacks. Losing the magic feels like much less of a blow now I've look at this. Sure stacking buffs is hard for us now, but we don't really need them (offensively). This makes use less dependant on heros and removes one of our major weakspots (hero sniping). Seems like a fundamental shift in the way the army plays from being high defence (through tonnes of wounds and save stacking) we've gone to much more damage but worse defence (more expensive wounds and harder to save stack with nerfed Wardoks). I'm going to add analysis of specific units to this thread over time. Feel free to request any specific stuff you want me to explore.
  22. Interesting but far from mind blowing. Surprised they didn't use the opportunity for fix Mark of Tzeentch, such a negative play experience on any 3+ save unit (when combined with save stacking). Any new Core Battalions?
  23. Not sure why no-one is talking about this. It may be hard to cast (7) but feels to me like a big deal. Such a powerful debuff (-1 attacks and no running) with good range (18" + 6") and big areas of effect (12" diameter circle and everything touched in effected). So crippling a large chunk of the enemy armour from across the board. What's not to love?
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