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whispersofblood

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whispersofblood last won the day on July 11 2019

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  1. I have two main worries for this faction. The first is that there is going to be a massive divergence of results from players in the field once games come back. People who are great at this game are going to do horrible things this army. Those who aren't great are going to struggle There are many examples of branched decision making even at the build stage where you have varying degrees of correctness. For example Iliatha is probably the lowest rated Great Nation at the moment, but a person who is talented with MSU could quite frankly be a terrifying opponent. There exists the options in this book to almost always control the game in almost every circumstance. But not a lot of it is obvious, and worse its not always obvious when to use these things. My worry is this faction becomes highly divisive in the community, but hopefully people see the faction for what it is in time.
  2. Mate you're doing Teclis' work here but humans prefer to do anything besides work harder, or accept capability. Mechanical problems aren't a level of issue the majority of gamers want to or know how to deal with. Most have no idea what an economy is and just want point increases on anything better than the thing they prefer. But, then most communities are just a reflection of the irrationality of our society so... Then there is a large portion of the player base that don't even know the rules of the game. See; the reactions to the one wound negation roll.
  3. Wardens are essentially your drop tax. You can't get to 3 or less drops without them, and I think this faction needs to choose turn order as often as it can. This is especially true if you invest in Sentinels. I think LRL have a really bad OBR match up, and I'm not optimistic about the Orruk match ups either.
  4. I'm assuming you are talking about me? Care to quote where I said any of that? This is erroneous Battletomes are not released sequentially they are released in accordance with marketing pressures which is why I wouldn't argue they were designed with what the game might look like 6-7 months in the future.
  5. HoS are just one example of the trend. But again you've not actually engaged with any of the arguments. Yes I started with LVO's data and then I investigated the meta-data (The data that makes up the data presented) for the events that were available. That's what good researchers do, look at the nitty gritty of the source data... I've dispensed with the feel bad argument further up, feel free to engage with it there. I don't really have an agenda I'm engaging with the topic of the thread and using retrospectives to inform how we should move forward. Don't raise your voice, improve your argument - Desmond Tutu
  6. Most of my posts in regard to your opinon are analysis, to which you've not engaged at all creating a strawman argument that they were proving to be oppressive. You've waded in and neither made a point or provided some reason you disagree with my assessment, so I'm a bit confused. The full tournament reports I can get my hands on show that HoS weren't actually beating factions without a sweat, and frequently weren't scoring that many points destroyed after the 3rd round, and the spread on actual scores wasn't insane. I will of course accept that HoS savagely beat, really bad factions but that seems like a useless piece of metadata we know some of those factions would lose to a random collection of Destruction models. The point is you can't render anything down to one or two data points and make a proclimation. The long run of the argument is that new factions do exactly what HoS did, just later, in different ways and that the community has already adapted. Armies are no longer heavily skewed towards alpha strikes and similar strategies, and therefore the dominance HoS showed early on would have regressed to a more tolerable percentage with no changes. I believe they still would have done well as the core of the faction is actually quite fast so good on the objective game, but that is not relevent at the moment. The reality is GW made the changes some parts of the community demanded, the game kept advancing and HoS are essentially unplayable in any serious manner. So clearly it was the wrong decision and the right one was patience, which was already paying off by the time the winter faq arrived. I apologize there is a list, multiple Epitome, Daemon Princes and Chaos Marauders.
  7. I don't think there is any army that can just summon anywhere... Tbh I think the soulrender needs a rethink altogether bringing models back was too direct to work, tbh he would be way better if the only thing was make Namarti immune to Battleshock. Don't know if I would take him, but still at least he would do something to keep Namarti around if that was the intent. But I suppose it could be worse he could Lotann.
  8. You've kind of failed to grapple with what I said. My argument isn't that the HoS win ration would drop permanently because of new armies. At first that would be the case, but as players adapt to the new challenge in an attempt to not be punished against new armies, they will need to make changes. The extreme builds that were letting them beat armies to the degree you mentioned are the exact reasons they lose against the new armies. To address them they need to pull back from those extremes which give the factions which struggled against them before more breathing space. Its not actually a rock/paper/scissors affect in the long term, the existence of the r/p/s puts pressure on builds to not spec to any point of the trilateral arrangement. This is only true so long as there is enough diversity on the arrangement, but the meta HoS were released into specifically did not have this diversity. If HoS were a form of Rock, then the whole meta was built to be scissors attacking each others remaining paper elements, and the worst performing factions were the ones who couldn't shed enough of their paper components (The Khornes, and the Nurgles of AoS 1.5.) The HWG datasets aren't really deep enough for people to make the sorts of judgements they are, its why factions are falling off performance cliffs, similarly its why DoK were unnerfable basically they were simply exceptionally adapted to the actual game, and didn't need to play the metagame.
  9. That isn't my assumption... If I have any assumptions its the following. Using HoS as an example, I've already detailed that the specific list that people took issue with is functionally dead against at least 9 factions, which leaves 15? factions that it works against lets say. That the whole HoS faction is now dead, and that is not a desirable outcome. That by the time GW could do anything about them, they already were reverting to the mean. You misunderstand how HoS worked if you think they hard countered every melee army in the game. HoS worked by making alpha strikes a non-functional strategy in that specific match up, and people refused to accept it. They were also an extremely easy army to start requiring building and painting about 20 models, and were released into a game that was dominated by the alpha strike at the time. Of course they were going to do well, its like releasing a Killer whale into a seal pen. I'm not suggesting that the game should or can be balanced around 2 day events. However with the number of factions available assuming we want these factions to be legitimately different, and not just re-skins of some dominant combat strategy, then I suspect that if a closed community has less than 5 players you will see huge amounts of imbalance. The game just can't be balanced on that scale and the factors which most predicates success at that level are intellectual ability, money, time and effort. Rules are a distant 5th, we can suppose this because there are many examples of players reaching out to the internet about their friends supposedly "unbeatable" Maggotkin of Nurgle army. In that environment players are going to be rank order by some combination of those factors again we can suppose this because new players aren't generally buying models they like. Its the same with a faction like KO with can dominate a local group or be at the bottom of a local group. But is actually pretty decent in the competitive environment. You feel very strongly about this I can see. But your feelings aren't born by facts, by the time HoS got nerfed in that errata they were already losing games to Orruks and needed to make changes to their list to deal with the pressure if they wanted to remain capable. Those changes included taking a lot more models, and fewer heroes specifically the KoS because of their fragility in the face of a competent melee unit like Ard Boyz. HoS actually weren't crushing non-alpha based combat armies, but you would need meta-data (such as actual scores) to know that. They didn't just run over Khorne if they Khorne player didn't try and alpha, and Khorne has never been a big player in the game. The reaction and continued opinion on HoS is in lockstep with normal reactions about confrontational facts. People were used to the game as it was, and couldn't come to grips that a faction any faction could or should change the norm. Personally I think the alpha meta was a boring game, and not really interesting or intellectually stimulating. Interestingly basically every army since HoS (discounting CoS) have been strongly anti-alpha in their own way and the game is better for it.
  10. I think the argument is that OBR don't necessarily hard counter LRL weaknesses, which I suppose is a decent argument I guess. They do have catapults though and LRL don't have a natural counter to those. I think structurally OBR are a good counter since they don't really rely on their heroes, in fact they are probably better without them once you get enough RDP. Nagash is a pretty good counter to Teclis as he is significantly tougher and plays especially the same game with less need for support pieces and can be pushed forward into the opponent's army. On the other hand random Sentinels can easily rock a +3 to cast, I don't think being immune to total eclipse and immune to BS help them much through, I think Teclis drops to 2 casts and forces the spells that do something through. I'm not sure Teclis is the long term future for LRL he just lets them bash armies they are probably good enough to beat anyway. Time will tell of course but LRL might actually be a home-run in regards to getting the power curve right.
  11. I don't think there will be warscroll changes in GHB20. I think the Eidolons could drop to 300 and be really interesting with their current scrolls, I mean we have a whole special table that doesn't get used at the moment I wish the Leviadon's aura was a bonus to bravery, or a hit buff/debuff I think the biggest problem with namarti is that they just aren't interesting, if you want to play infantry why are you playing IDK there isn't much unique about them. I think it would be cool if the infantry could deploy in no mans land or something interesting like that. But alas.
  12. How many hard counters does a play style need before the people playing it change? Any change very likely require players to give up some advantage in a strong match up to minimize a weakness in a bad match up. Also HoS basically lose in almost every 2019 battle plan to no less than 9 factions, those mentioned, GSG and KO. We are approaching half the field at this point. I get it seeing an opponent put new models on the board makes people feel bad. The solution is to grow up a bit and appreciate the differences in armies. Not shout down differences in the approaches factions take to playing the game. The reality is right now if a player asked me how to play HoS, I would tell them to choose a different faction. There is no way that is preferable to otherwise grown men getting the feel bads because their opponents put new models on the board.
  13. The problem is that the vast majority of players have no idea what is coming, and only an even as far I can tell only a small minority have any idea of how the interactions between forces and strategies impact each other. The list that was tormenting the world doesn't work against, OBR, doesn't work again DoT, doesn't work again Seraphon and doesn't work against LRL, and already didn't work against DoK, was struggling against Hallowheart, and was an iffy prospect against Orruks. So we have no idea what HoS would have become in the face of those pressures, but we do know two things, that they are terrible right now. And, that they would have been unbearable for about what at the most 7 months? Its plain short sighted thinking, and had we all just collectively not lost our cool, the whole game would be in a different place right now as we prepare for GHB and I think better. This isn't WHFB AoS is in a constant state of becoming, meta-states are much smaller than the HWG stats provide for, and at best show what the game was not what it is. I don't generally like reacting to people getting the "feel bads", because as humans we actually tend to a) overreact, and then b) either institutionalize our feelings, meaning that they will just be a deeply held belief (not opinion) regardless of their basis in fact, or move the hell on pretty quickly. I'm still pretty sure most the the noise about HoS came from people who never played a single game against them. All this to say that in a lot of situations doing nothing is the right thing to do. Having 2 Faqs a year has lured people into the idea that they don't have the intellectual power to come up with solutions or to copy + paste another persons ideas or that there should be an expectation to update your army build as new things come out. I don't think HoS summoning was in effect that bad, it was quite easy to kill or zone the heroes in the places you don't want people to summon into and if you can't it is probably a result of being outplayed. More often then not by turn 3 summoning more heroes wasn't a winning strategy anyway. The only change that HoS needed was taking the KoS locus of diversion bonus down to +1 instead of +2 and seeing how that played out. Now I understand many people just play the game to kill the opponents army, but frankly that's maladaptive and if that is the case you're playing the game poorly from the onset and we as a community should not be encouraging that mindset generally speaking because it doesn't allow for a diverse strategic approach among factions. If we have real diversity some strategies will just be easier to play, easier to collect, cheaper to play, have models that are more appealing to more people, or strategies that are more appealing to certain personalities. The combination of these attributes is probably more impactful than the power of a factions rules or points generally speaking, and over reacting because the loudest faction of players want to line up their models and duke it out I feel diminishes the quality of the game and the depth of the AoS world.
  14. If you include Teclis in your army a LRL is probably capped at about 80-90 models. Despite the power of their magic it's still an objective game at the end of the day. This is essentially the same arguments we had about the game as a forum when HoS were at the fore. The game is interesting because there is a radar of strategies that each faction has spikes on, and we get sucked in trying to nerf individual steps on the path to a relatively complete game. The armies at that spike at extremes exist but ultimately they are playing the same game and as a player you need to be able to modulate how you play that game in a match up. HoS at launch would have been an excellent counter play to LRL forcing certain concession at the build phase. But, as they are HoS are basically a dead faction, too fragile to play the objective game and insufficient combat to even take people off objectives. As a LRL player I can fully lean into maxed range dmg or essentially target priority choices because there isn't an army with enough tactical depth to cause second thought. Then we compound this by ignoring the social and economic forces that make certain armies appear more powerful than they should. While releasing new armies into a wonderful rod they weren't tested in. Essentially I hate the tinkering we are doing with AoS and I don't think changes should be made outside of GHB. I believe it is making the game worse for the average gamer, and having the opposite effect on the game.
  15. LRL don't have clan rats. Also Teclis became a god during the End Times, Thanqoul only has a god sized ego.
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