Can someone explain me the « love » of chaos dwarves?

[pseudonyme]

It’s in the title. It is not sarcastic I promise, I just want to understand why the love as I know almost nothing about them.

[Snorri Nelriksson]

Probably their aesthetic and uniqueness (after the fact they are dwarfs).
The idea of mesopotamian\iranian chaos dwarves seems "original enough" without just playing on the old "duergar" fantasy trope.
Still they play on the dwarf worst traits and exaggerate further, without seeming just evils , with their added quirks and things like the whole Hashut cult (that seems really different from other chaos gods).
Also their story is interesting as they continued with the dwarven mindset but tried to avert their doom with a pact forged in damnation.
There was an interesting quote in the Wrfp 2nd edition tome of corruption:
"Where was Grimnir when our warriors were dying? Where was Valaya when our children sickened? When we called out for aid in the deep places where we delved, it was not Grungni who answered our call, but mighty Hashut who delivered us in our time of need. Who are the real traitors here? Our kin who abandoned us to madness and death or we who only sought to survive against the forces of Chaos? One day there will be a reckoning and it will be the Sons of the Father of Darkness who will have the victory, not the weak willed spawn of the pathetic Ancestor Gods."
 

[Jefferson Skarsnik]

Absence making the heart grow fonder/army has a sense of novelty and was also never fully centre stage or hugely present in WFB so the people that liked them have always wanted them to get more stuff/emblematic of WFB's ability to take existing fantasy clichés and put a fun twist on them/funny hats

[Kaleb Daark]

I shall reply to this in the morning…

it will be a long one….

[Feii]

Big hats. (commenting so I can follow the thread)

[Skreech Verminking]

They are skavenlike dwarfs, although not as good looking or in any way better then them.

Skaven for the win!

yes-Yes

Edited May 23, 2021 by Skreech Verminking

[FFJump]

They're just such a cool army with cool lore to be honest. The whole aesthetic of twisted dwarf industry with fire and bulls everywhere. The idea of an evil dwarf not only being able to create a cannon, but also be able to summon and bind a daemon to that cannon so that it now spews hellfire is just... badass.  See, dwarfs in themselves are cool. They're stubborn, well-armored, war-machine making short tough guys. Just a bunch of Wolverines with a long sordid and sad history. They're classic fantasy staples. The Warhammer ones are even cooler with their guns and warmachines and being darker in general. 

Now you take this already fun race in itself, then you corrupt it. Now they're not just dwarfs, they're dwarfs that worship a lesser known evil god because their ancestor spirits abandoned them. They still have the same concepts as normal dwarfs, they're master crafters, stubborn, and grumpy, but you take to that extreme and add magic. They're not just making warmachines, they're making horrific warmachines not to protect their holdings but specifically for conquest and to inflict pain. They've got cannons that shoot magma, horrible machines made of just axes, hammers, buzzsaws, and whatever else sharp you can throw in there just to mutilate people. In Tamurkhan, they had what's essentially napalm bombs made from mixing fire daemon essence with chemicals. Dwarfs have runes, but Chaos Dwarfs have magic and they're mixing that in with their warmachines by enslaving daemons and binding them to their weapons. They don't have blacksmiths, they have daemon-smiths. But there's more. Chaos Dwarfs are still dwarfs, so the magic has a setback. The more magic they use, the more they turn to stone as their body fights it. So they replace their stony body-parts with steampunk robot pieces the more stone-like they become, so now you got cyborg dwarfs thrown in the mix.

Then you add one more unique thing to the mix. Chaos Dwarfs are Chaos dwarfs, so they need mutations. So what do they get? While yes, the dwarfs start developing horns here and there. But what else for a bull-worshipping evil race? BULL. CENTAURS. That's right, now you've got centaurs that are not just human and horse or gor and horse like centigors, no, no, they're dwarf and bull! And of course the naming scheme doesn't make a lick of sense when you think about what the word centaur means, but it's still such an insane idea that it doesn't even matter.



Then you take the grumpiness to the max. Now they're not just grumpy, they're down-right evil and cruel. They use slaves to power their industries. They've turned their lands into industrial wastelands. In AoS, Zharr Vxya is essentially an oil rig where they're siphoning energy from the dead in the underworld there. Warhammer has plenty of evil races, but Chaos Dwarfs are a particular type of evil that's not really covered by any other race. Even Skaven who are also mad engineers and scientists, are more of a zany evil making big wheels while sniffing warp-dust. They don't really have whole land corrupting factories powered by the slaves or at the cost of other races, pumping out weapons to fuel conquest like the Chaos Dwarfs do.

And finally, the aesthetic. Chaos Dwarfs just look cool. There's been different interpretations of course. You have the helmeted ones from Azgorh and before 5th edition. And those are still cool looking and even just an update with that aesthetic would be alright. Then you have the hats. There is no argument to be made here. This hat is peak perfection. It's so amazing those damned pointy-eared realmlords had to make their own poor imitations just to cope with the absolute POWER emanating from this specimen. And this alone should prove why they need a plastic update and their own official battletome that's not a PDF from Forgeworld's website.

Edited May 23, 2021 by FFJump

[Maddpainting]

They are cooler than normal dwarfs and people like those, lol. (Funny jab don't take offense).

[Sarouan]

It's mostly the same than for squats or sisters of battle in 40k before they got remade.

It's an army you rarely meet in game, especially now that Battle has died and FW has removed the chaos dwarves range. So people like to put them back on the scene whenever they have the opportunity.

Those who are still faithful to Chaos Dwarves nowadays are true fans, so obviously there is a lot of love coming from them. Doesn't really mean the army when it was "alive" at the time of Warhammer Battle was really that good.

I mean...I played them at that time before FW and they were quite...let's say "specific". Also horribly cheesy because everyone hated playing against dwarves in those days and Chaos Dwarves were basically dwarves but with everything they lacked : flying monsters, cavalry, magic and cheap cannon fodder units (the greenskins).

I'm not nostalgic myself on that matter. 😘

Edited May 23, 2021 by Sarouan

[Fairbanks]

The sheer flaunting of money because of how expensive the army was (Thanks Forge World)

[SunStorm]

Cruel slavemasters, industrial engineers with steam/daemon powered creations, master sorcerers slowly turning to stone, weird and wonderful mashups of dwarfs and bulls (Lammasu, Bull Centaurs/Renders, Great Taurus are all great)

The mystery around who or what Hashut was.

The fact they used orcs and goblins as slaves but found them too unruly, so they created the black orcs. They were more organised, enough to stage a rebellion and it would have succeeded if it wasn't for the hobgoblins turning traitor on the rest of the green skins. Cementing the Chaos Dwarves + Hobgoblin combined forces. 

I had a few pieces of the early chaos dwarf models, including their blood bowl team, but I never loved the big hats (sacrilege I know). When FW released the Legion of Azgorh the look fit my idea of the lore perfectly. I was lucky enough to get most of a full army of them before they went OOP. Everything except the K'daai which weren't the best looking models, but were a unique mash up of daemons and elementals. 

While I would be interested in a new AoSified take on them, to me the FW range of sculpts was pretty much perfect in terms of the overall look. Maybe the new kruelboyz could be used alongside the FW kits as the updated hobgoblins we never got in resin... 🤔

 

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by SunStorm

[Sarouan]

6 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

While I would be interested in a new AoSified take on them, to me the FW range of sculpts was pretty much perfect in terms of the overall look. Maybe the new kruelboyz could be used alongside the FW kits as the updated hobgoblins we never got in resin.

Well, we already have chaos dwarves in AoS. Not just in the background, you can see their miniatures in some Warcry warbands.

They are more faithful to their true beginnings, when they were just what their names suggest : dwarves who succumbed to Chaos.

Chaos Dwarves at the time of Battle with their cult to Hashut...are something else, to be honest. They're not really Chaos Dwarves, more like Dark Dwarves like the Dark Elves were to the High Elves.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Sarouan

[Neverchosen]

I think that it is not a single thing and tastes of course vary. I know my opinion may be in the minority, but I have a unique relationship with these little guys that I wanted to share. Keep in mind I am a fan of them no matter the iteration so my preferences are not deal breakers.

I personally like them as I am a fan of their aesthetic and their lore. I got into Warhammer Fantasy Battles in 6th edition and I remember having a generals handbook(?) that had the points and maybe rules for legacy Chaos Dwarves but the catalogue and store didn't have any models. I was playing Chaos at the time and I was excited thinking it was an upcoming army that I could run with my Warriors and Beastmen and I waited with each release and eventually got this beauty:


But then while Googling Chaos Dwarves one day I found out it was a full range with a unique aesthetic and it's own fantastic lore. Now I am a huge fan of both iterations of Chaos Dwarves and although I favour the Hellcannon and hope to see Chaos Dwarves return to Slaves to Darkness I am also a fan of the big hats and Bull Centaurs. Personally my hope would be a fully playable subfaction in Slaves to Darkness that combined the aesthetic of both and made use of demon forged warmachines.  However, I could also imagine being blown away with a completely original take. But I will be happy no matter what, if they find their way onto the tabletop. 😇

Edited May 24, 2021 by Neverchosen

[Thane]

Really cool lore overall, neat aesthetic. Basically ultra-slavers who tinker with biology and magic to create both new races and new daemons. They also have really cool dark versions of dwarf technology.

[Greybeard86]

Other have said it better, but my take. They are unique and wacky, but with clearly recognizable and hence relatable historical elements. They are evil, but they seem to have a good reason for it (survival), so it is almost relatable. They have insane looking things, but bound by a very coherent background theme. 
 

I very much hope they bring them back. It is an army I will likely collect in the future, with or without GW s support.

[pseudonyme]

Thanks you all. Indeed they lore seems to be cool. 
 

From a sculpt perspective, I guess I am not a fan of funny hats (even I have Nagash at home 😁), and the whole demon artillery thing (I tend to dislike a lot 90% of machines designed by GW whatever the system), but I really like the centaur and the dwarves with their face mask displayed in this topic.

[SunStorm]

8 hours ago, Sarouan said:

Well, we already have chaos dwarves in AoS. Not just in the background, you can see their miniatures in some Warcry warbands.

They are more faithful to their true beginnings, when they were just what their names suggest : dwarves who succumbed to Chaos.

Chaos Dwarves at the time of Battle with their cult to Hashut...are something else, to be honest. They're not really Chaos Dwarves, more like Dark Dwarves like the Dark Elves were to the High Elves.

I think that was what drew me to them, they weren't just dwarfs who worshipped classical chaos. They had their own style, motivation and even their own god. As you say the 5th Edition White Dwarf Presents era established they weren't really "chaos dwarves", Fire Dwarves (Dawi-Zharr) or Dark Dwarves would be more fitting. 

The few recent examples we have seen through the warbands do just seem to be chaos dwarves in the same way the human worshippers are chaos humans. 

There is hope in the the small snippets of lore in AoS we've seen that point towards a more unified industrial race. The talk of modifying gargants and giant oil rig structures. Maybe we'll see an updated siege gargant

[Greybeard86]

10 minutes ago, SunStorm said:

I think that was what drew me to them, they weren't just dwarfs who worshipped classical chaos. They had their own style, motivation and even their own god. As you say the 5th Edition White Dwarf Presents era established they weren't really "chaos dwarves", Fire Dwarves (Dawi-Zharr) or Dark Dwarves would be more fitting. 

The few recent examples we have seen through the warbands do just seem to be chaos dwarves in the same way the human worshippers are chaos humans. 

There is hope in the the small snippets of lore in AoS we've seen that point towards a more unified industrial race. The talk of modifying gargants and giant oil rig structures. Maybe we'll see an updated siege gargant

This! Evil industrial dwarves with demons mixed in is an awesome theme. I hope we don't lose it. So dark, such a good story of uncontrolled industrialism and exploitation, humorous on top, it just had it all. They could be the fantasy counterpart to a story by Dickens.

[Beliman]

I'm not one of the "true fans" (didn't even play the game at that time), but they had a lot going on for me  and that's why is the only BB2 team that I play:

• They are dwarfs.
• They have magic (something diferent than normal dwarfs, even if the ol'runic-system was really fun to play with).
• "Classic dwarfs" had a bit of artillery and troops, but this dudes had everything!! Monster creatures, artillery, flying mounts, monstruous troops, etc.. and let's be honest, Bull Centaurs!!
• Their design is so unique (the old one). Cities full of zigurats, sacrificial temples, factories (!), slaves pits, volcanos... It evocates all type of 80s fantasy stories.
• As a Som'er Teeth Jones player, Big hat= Boss.

[Kaleb Daark]

10 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

They are skavenlike dwarfs, although not as good looking or in any way better then them.

Skaven for the win!

yes-Yes

pah!!

cheese and moustraps away with ya!!

Pale amateurs compared to the true technocracy - who needs the green chaos crack when you can just beat a daemon up against their will and strap them into a device hmm?

We taught elric everything he knows... swapped stormbringer for some old scrap he had.

... and we're cleaner than you.. s'there.

 

btw.. this is not the reply I was talking about above.

[Skreech Verminking]

25 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

pah!!

cheese and moustraps away with ya!!

Pale amateurs compared to the true technocracy - who needs the green chaos crack when you can just beat a daemon up against their will and strap them into a device hmm?

We taught elric everything he knows... swapped stormbringer for some old scrap he had.

... and we're cleaner than you.. s'there.

 

btw.. this is not the reply I was talking about above.

Or you could just as well combine a demonic entities live juices with warpstone, forge it in the deepest part of the under empire, and make a god slaying sword, that Nagash has learned to fear more then just once.

So.....

let’s judt call it even,

we all know it is the skaven who have the better although more destructive (in both ways) weapons then the chaosbeard-things

[Ulfast]

I just love them and specially the big hat models. But I like the other models too. If GW would remade them then I would buy them all! So cool army in both style and lore.

[Greybeard86]

4 minutes ago, Ulfast said:

I just love them and specially the big hat models. But I like the other models too. If GW would remade them then I would buy them all! So cool army in both style and lore.

I loved all of them, but I think the not-so-goofy ones are a bit better for modern standards.

 

[Honk]

When you look at the usual Dwarf, now Duardin, they are kinda noblebright. A bit grumpy, but they have lawful kings and thanes, keep to themselves. Jolly nice beer drinking smiths and miners singing „heiho heiho off to work we go...“

Now the Chaosdwarves are not singing and certainly not frolicking around drinking beer and thinking about shiny baubles. They are the grimdark version, living on the edges of civilization, in their grim determination to survive and fight against chaos,or whatever, they turned their society into a 40k Cadia (but without the help from the Imperium, they left them to die, worse, to be devoured by Chaos). Pure :that‘s a very nice mechanic, but how do you destroy things with it?

Their industry spits out mad mechanics of mass destruction, they use demons to make everything go more boom, they’ll go all the way and then some more just to be sure. And in the darkness, they even found a new patreon to encourage and bless them in their eternal struggle... 

 

50 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

we all know it is the skaven who have the better although more destructive (in both ways) weapons then the chaosbeard-things

Quit your squeaking flea-infested vermin, we had mile high rockets ready to eradicate whole cities, before you even scurried out of your moldy cheese

(might slipped a notch during lift off and devastated some worker camps, but those are just minor setbacks, the new designs are flawless, I was told)

[Skreech Verminking]

3 minutes ago, Honk said:

When you look at the usual Dwarf, now Duardin, they are kinda noblebright. A bit grumpy, but they have lawful kings and thanes, keep to themselves. Jolly nice beer drinking smiths and miners singing „heiho heiho off to work we go...“

Now the Chaosdwarves are not singing and certainly not frolicking around drinking beer and thinking about shiny baubles. They are the grimdark version, living on the edges of civilization, in their grim determination to survive and fight against chaos,or whatever, they turned their society into a 40k Cadia (but without the help from the Imperium, they left them to die, worse, to be devoured by Chaos). Pure :that‘s a very nice mechanic, but how do you destroy things with it?

Their industry spits out mad mechanics of mass destruction, they use demons to make everything go more boom, they’ll go all the way and then some more just to be sure. And in the darkness, they even found a new patreon to encourage and bless them in their eternal struggle... 

 

Quit your squeaking flea-infested vermin, we had mile high rockets ready to eradicate whole cities, before you even scurried out of your moldy cheese

(might slipped a notch during lift off and devastated some worker camps, but those are just minor setbacks, the new designs are flawless, I was told)

It just need one mad little rat in a wheel to destroy-evaporate your  plan-scheme