Do you feel cheated?

[NorthernNurgling]

6 minutes ago, PrimeElectrid said:

There’s no misunderstanding. You quite clearly state you hoped that the Mountain Spirit was a one off, when all the LrL background tells you otherwise 🤷‍♂️ 

Fine I'll come back one more time, just for your benefit.

To state it as clearly as possible, if GW knew the design of the fox dude, the kangaroo riders, the llama lord etc etc etc, I think it would have been nice for them to have been included in the battletome artwork, even just as faint shapes.

I thought that the spirits of Hysh would look like elf avatars, the way Orion was the spirit of the wood-elves without being a treeman himself. I did not think there would be such a variety of unusual creatures in the roster. When I saw the Mountain Spirit, I was disappointed, but just decided I wouldn't use one in my own list.

If I was selling a range of models that included such a variety of creatures, I would a) state clearly in the battletome and hype articles and b) give some hints of their appearance to people who were about to invest heavily in the front end of the release. I don't think that is unreasonable. Clearly you disagree and that is fine, but don't suggest I have no reason to feel misled.

[Eulailah]

46 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Yes, they knew. I agree with that, at least that there was a second wave coming relatively soon, exact timing could have been influenced by Covid. 

Why wasn’t it a finished product? You can play just fine with the current Lumineth. The Battletome had a lore section, art and everything else that another Battletome has. Some parts were competitively good (all for faction useable, all units being good), some not so like the artifacts. But that’s exactly the same for any other Battletome. 

Of course they want you to buy more. That’s not connected to how the release is done. 9 month later isn’t really “directly after”as you say yourself, and you can always decline to buy more. If you like the models, you’ll buy them anyway. The only difference is, if you are really into the Lumineth, they’ll be easier to afford if you have a bit of time in between releases. And if you collect all kind of armies the whole point is moot anyway. And there are other things that will make you buy more, like shifting metas, wanting to paint more etc. I think it’s too simplistic to say, oh if they just would release everything together than it’s better in that respect - how come all the stories about piles of grey? 

Which rules in the Lumineth Battletome aren’t valid anymore? 

Hm... I don't know. Maybe I'm just salty, but it seems to me that it 9 months later (or a year) is pretty fast in this hobby. Of course you knew more LML were to come, or at least that's what everyone hopes for in this hobby, but it would have been nice of them to include these warscrolls in the battletome. Note that I used "nice", as they indeed want to earn money, but I understand why some people might feel tricked in this case. They bought an army to play a game, and now they see that had they just waited a bit, maybe they would have been able to invest that money in some other units.

About the validity of the rules, it's true we don't know whether they will be valid or not. But these new rules could have been included in the previous battletome. I think that's what they did in 40K with the Space Marines and Necrons, right? I think it's the right thing to do, and we should aspire to that as well.

As I said, maybe I'm just salty about it all, and this really is nothing to worry about.

[LuminethMage]

25 minutes ago, Eulailah said:

Hm... I don't know. Maybe I'm just salty, but it seems to me that it 9 months later (or a year) is pretty fast in this hobby. Of course you knew more LML were to come, or at least that's what everyone hopes for in this hobby, but it would have been nice of them to include these warscrolls in the battletome. Note that I used "nice", as they indeed want to earn money, but I understand why some people might feel tricked in this case. They bought an army to play a game, and now they see that had they just waited a bit, maybe they would have been able to invest that money in some other units.

About the validity of the rules, it's true we don't know whether they will be valid or not. But these new rules could have been included in the previous battletome. I think that's what they did in 40K with the Space Marines and Necrons, right? I think it's the right thing to do, and we should aspire to that as well.

As I said, maybe I'm just salty about it all, and this really is nothing to worry about.

Ok, got you, sorry for being a bit of pain, but I really had trouble understanding some of the complaints (like “this is cheating”) . I do understand of course that not everyone likes this way of doing things. All good. 👍

 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

17 hours ago, NorthernNurgling said:

So is it just me, or did anyone else jump into Lumineth thinking "Oooo, elves!" only to be bombarded into submission by this unlikely menagerie of Hyshian pokemon?

 

I think that'a very valid complaint, given that their initial marketing push to appeal to old high elf players. The whole "pointy elves" campaign is pretty ironic in hindsight, with their message of "Look at all those weirdo tree and fish elves. That's cool, but some people just want something more traditional".

Although I guess where the new releases leave you with respect to your feelings about the faction as a whole depends on you. I did not get into the initial wave for Lumineth because they did not really work as a high elf callback or a completely new faction for me. I might get into LRL wave two, though, since with the new weird stuff that is coming, they are starting to get me interested in their own right, separate from the high elf connection. If I view the army not as a high elf thing, but as an interesting pseudo-asiatic army with a bunch of interesting animal spirits, it hits a certain spot for me.

 

2 hours ago, LuminethMage said:

What’s the actual complaint about being greedy specifically because of the split release? That you “have” to buy BR Teclis? Wouldn’t you have bought it anyway? If it’s anything like BR Morathi, it’ll be interesting to read alone for the story, even if you don’t collect any of the models. I bought BR Morathi and I don’t collect any of them. 

If you wouldn’t have bought it, is the money you have to spend for that really such a problem concerning what you spend for the hobby as such? 

 

I think the most valid grievance is that people expected their LRL book to be good for a while (like the usually assumed three or so years). I definitely don't think that it's reasonable to assert that all Lumineth players would have bought BR: Teclis anyway. I did not get BR: Morathi because I didn't think the Cities rules in there were worth it for me, even though I play Cities. If BR: Teclis only had a few battalions or a new subfaction in it, I am sure many Lumineth players would have skipped it. Some might not have bought into Lumineth wave one at all if they had known a year ago that the army would get a second wave and book in the near future.

I think we could view the issue as GW using their information advantage (they knew LRL 2 would be coming, players did not) to get players to buy something they would otherwise not have if they had the same information as GW. And it's reasonable to suspect that GW knew this would be the case (that people would not buy into Lumineth at release to the same degree if they knew more was coming a year later) and chose not to provide the pertinent information to players precisely because they thought doing so would reduce initial sales. This is whole situation is definitely not ethically neutral. Feeling cheated (for lack of a better word) is justified.

 

25 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

GW makes no secret. They don't trick you. You know that when you buy a kit, you get the kit, not all the possible rules for all related kits, or indeed even the full rules for that kit.

 

GW don't make false promises, that is true. But they certainly don't provide customers with all the information they might want to make informed purchasing decisions either. They definitely keep their plans for future expansions secret. And those plans might well impact the perceived value of a GW product for customers if they knew about them (as we indeed see with BR: Morathi and the battletome).

Never the less, I agree with you on the point that when you buy a GW product, you should not expect anything beyond that product. However, from my point of view, that means that in the future I will buy GW products only if I am happy with the value I get out of them right now, not with the expectation that they will be valid for a certain length of time. That probably means I will buy less GW stuff overall. I don't think that's in the interest of GW. I would like to be able to give them a certain degree of trust when it comes to their games, rule books and kits as far as their long term support.

[Eulailah]

13 minutes ago, LuminethMage said:

Ok, got you, sorry for being a bit of pain, but I really had trouble understanding some of the complaints (like “this is cheating”) . I do understand of course that not everyone likes this way of doing things. All good. 👍

 

You were never a pain! You spoke your mind and so did I, and it was great. Let's just hope every faction gets some of that aelven love

[EMMachine]

21 hours ago, Feii said:

Imagine buying books in 2021

 

20 hours ago, eciu said:

You bought a book. 

Thats on you. 

Oh, well if you want the english rules you have other ways to get them (AoS App, epub). But if you want them for example in german translation, you are forced to buy the printed book. But I also like to flick through the book instead of doing it on my smartphone. In the end I buy them mostly for the lore.

18 hours ago, TheCovenLord said:

Here's the thing though. They've teased more generic looking swordmasters and bolt thrower units. Just avoid Kangaroo jack and his band and focus on the regular infantry and the army looks decent. I do agree the animal themes are a bit much for my tastes. Call me boring but just give them old fashioned lions/dragons etc. iconography

 

EDIT: I by no means have bought into the army and I will wait until Tyrion (or hopefully Malerion) show themselves before I buy into any more aelves. I'll stick with my bad dark aelf pirates/sorceresses

Has somebody tried to use the official name of the "Kangaroos". They are called treerunners. But it's interesting that lions or dragons are not the problem, but those treerunners are.

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

Yes, they knew. I agree with that, at least that there was a second wave coming relatively soon, exact timing could have been influenced by Covid. 

Why wasn’t it a finished product? You can play just fine with the current Lumineth. The Battletome had a lore section, art and everything else that another Battletome has. Some parts were competitively good (all for faction useable, all units being good), some not so like the artifacts. But that’s exactly the same for any other Battletome. 

Of course they want you to buy more. That’s not connected to how the release is done. 9 month later isn’t really “directly after”as you say yourself, and you can always decline to buy more. If you like the models, you’ll buy them anyway. The only difference is, if you are really into the Lumineth, they’ll be easier to afford if you have a bit of time in between releases. And if you collect all kind of armies the whole point is moot anyway. And there are other things that will make you buy more, like shifting metas, wanting to paint more etc. I think it’s too simplistic to say, oh if they just would release everything together than it’s better in that respect - how come all the stories about piles of grey? 

Which rules in the Lumineth Battletome aren’t valid anymore? 

I can only guess that they needed the Lumineth for the lore early, so they couldn't wait until the rest is ready. But they just could have handled it as a campaignbook like they did at the beginning with the Realmgate Wars. That way it wouldn't have felt that the Battletome lost value so quick.

[Doko]

Ok i gonna tell why lumineth players that are like me must feel cheated.

I dont like have more than one of the same unit in a army if i can avoid it.

So with the initial range of lumineths you needed repeat units to get to 2k.

Yes we had hints of new units,but almost every faction have these same hints and out of daemons and stormcast nobody have got one new non hero unit since the release of aos,so even with hints nobody tougth that lumineths were to get it in less than 5 years.

Per example i would be cheated if i bougth 30 hammerers and for the same momey now i could have 15 hammerers and 15 swordmasters. 

So people who dont like repeated units must feel cheated by this even if they are happy to have new units.

Myself have around 1300 points of fyreslayer that are only 20 vulkites(for battleline),20 heartguard berzerers(one unit of 20),one magmadroth and some heroes,i must use gotrek and battallion to get to 2000. I have been waiting years for new units to complete the army.........now if i end buyin more vulkites or heartguard to get to 2000 and before i finish build them they release new units i would feel cheated.

I dont know if i explained it as my head think because english isnt my main

[Yokai]

1 hour ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

GW don't make false promises, that is true. But they certainly don't provide customers with all the information they might want to make informed purchasing decisions either. They definitely keep their plans for future expansions secret. And those plans might well impact the perceived value of a GW product for customers if they knew about them (as we indeed see with BR: Morathi and the battletome).

This is my biggest grievance with the GW marketing strategy as well. There is no roadmap or equivalent to look at regarding future plans for your favourite factions, and that has made me more wary of purchasing new stuff. It hurts my enjoyment of the game, and it hurts GW financially.

Compare with this, for just an example how competitors are handling it better.

[Scurvydog]

Destruction players sitting and surely crying their eyes out on behalf of all the aelf players getting too much new stuff so they get overwhelmed

[LoopyZebra]

I'm not planning to buy any rulebooks (battletimes or Broken Realms) until 3rd Edition AoS. In my region, the pandemic is as bad as it has ever been. It is unlikely that I will play a game of AoS before fall.

Even without COVID preventing games, I believe that the rules are too expensive for how quickly they become invalid. I would be likely to buy more models if the cost of entry to the rules weren't a barrier.

[stratigo]

7 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Destruction players sitting and surely crying their eyes out on behalf of all the aelf players getting too much new stuff so they get overwhelmed

As the wise sage krillen said, “I feel like a man dying of thirst watching another man drown”  

[CommissarRotke]

22 hours ago, JackStreicher said:

Indeed.

Yet I bought BR: Morathi for the story, knowing they would do their best to invalidate all of the other content ASAP.

Do you feel like it was worth it for the story and art? I got it but its still unopened.. wondering if the 40 bucks would be better spent on a warband.

The only reasons I really feel cheated by GW are the fact that buying rulebooks does not include a free digital copy (that will inevitably include the updates and fixes), and the unnecessary price hikes they keep doing because they know enough people will still keep buying. I'm giving them a bit more leeway with this year's releases because of COVID, but I also agree with Clan Cynic that GW definitely planned this out to some extent. And with that it also feels ridiculously wasteful to print all these books, knowing you're going to have more in a couple months that are necessary for people's armies.

While I get that some people feel [insert negative emotion] by how wild the Lumineth look, I think the fact that GW is actually taking the initiative to break out of or reimagine the major fantasy tropes is the best thing about AOS. High Elves always had weird stupid hats AND bestial mounts. I don't think the Lumineth releases are as different from WHF as some people want them to be.

[JackStreicher]

Just now, CommissarRotke said:

Do you feel like it was worth it for the story and art? I got it but its still unopened..

The Story is super cool and the Art as well and. Yet, realistically speaking: It‘s kind of worth it if you are used to GW‘s prices. If you are not used to it, well, then it isn‘t 😅 

 

[whispersofblood]

3 hours ago, Doko said:

Ok i gonna tell why lumineth players that are like me must feel cheated.

I dont like have more than one of the same unit in a army if i can avoid it.

So with the initial range of lumineths you needed repeat units to get to 2k.

Yes we had hints of new units,but almost every faction have these same hints and out of daemons and stormcast nobody have got one new non hero unit since the release of aos,so even with hints nobody tougth that lumineths were to get it in less than 5 years.

Per example i would be cheated if i bougth 30 hammerers and for the same momey now i could have 15 hammerers and 15 swordmasters. 

So people who dont like repeated units must feel cheated by this even if they are happy to have new units.

Myself have around 1300 points of fyreslayer that are only 20 vulkites(for battleline),20 heartguard berzerers(one unit of 20),one magmadroth and some heroes,i must use gotrek and battallion to get to 2000. I have been waiting years for new units to complete the army.........now if i end buyin more vulkites or heartguard to get to 2000 and before i finish build them they release new units i would feel cheated.

I dont know if i explained it as my head think because english isnt my main

Mate its game of toy dollies, its just not that deep. I bought and built enough models to play exclusively a Vanari build, and even models to convert into LRL proxies for IDK allies. Guess what? I'm thrilled to get the rest of the faction. I'll build and paint what I have and when I have the money I'll get whatever else I want, because its a hobby and its not life sustaining. 

On a scale of importance, this just isn't it. There isn't an obligation to buy anything, you are trapped by your desires not by what GW has offered.

[Pyrescribe]

I'm thrilled with the direction they're taking the lumineth. I don't see how the new releases invalidate the old releases. What on earth suggested that the mountain spirit was going to be the only elemental spirit that was animalistic? I'm thrilled to buy BR Teclis. It's a snapshot in time, just like the first battletome. Is it really a given that the new battle tome will come out before third edition? Mind you, I'm not a GW fanboy; I've come around after playing Warmachine and Infinity for twelve years purely to collect, paint and play Lumineth... So perhaps I'm biased in being an old school Asur player, but I'm happy the Lumineth are their own thing and not simply 32mm High Elves. It sucks people feel misled and cheated, though. I just don't understand letting a toy manufacturer getting you riled up.

[Lucky Snake Eyes]

You know I feel like a lot of these complaints could be mitigated by a 6 month road map updated on the first of every month? Like I feel that's a decent level of transparency and not seeing your army on the roadmap 6 months after it's release is probably a good indicator of whether or not to continue with the current range or wait for more.

[stratigo]

11 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

You know I feel like a lot of these complaints could be mitigated by a 6 month road map updated on the first of every month? Like I feel that's a decent level of transparency and not seeing your army on the roadmap 6 months after it's release is probably a good indicator of whether or not to continue with the current range or wait for more.

 

Yes. You are correct.

 

But consumers might be able to make informed purchasing decisions with more information, and we can't have that. The less information they have the more power the business has.

[zilberfrid]

12 minutes ago, Lucky Snake Eyes said:

You know I feel like a lot of these complaints could be mitigated by a 6 month road map updated on the first of every month? Like I feel that's a decent level of transparency and not seeing your army on the roadmap 6 months after it's release is probably a good indicator of whether or not to continue with the current range or wait for more.

Considering they actively obfuscated sets being removed from sale in the culling of 2019, that's not going to happen. They want to squeeze the last cent out of players.

[yukishiro1]

GW isn't interested in being your friendly neighborhood game company. They don't care about making customers happy, they care about how much $ those customers spend. The only reason they make changes is if they think it will hurt sales not to. You can be as unhappy as you want on the internet and it doesn't bother them, as long as you still grudgingly open your wallet for the next release. The only reason there was a big shift in GW's strategy during 7th edition 40k and early AOS was because it was bleeding customers. 

Voting with your wallet is the only thing GW understands, and right now, customers are lining up to let GW take their money, so you're very unlikely to see any significant changes in the way they operate. 

[CommissarRotke]

7 hours ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

GW don't make false promises, that is true. But they certainly don't provide customers with all the information they might want to make informed purchasing decisions either. They definitely keep their plans for future expansions secret. And those plans might well impact the perceived value of a GW product for customers if they knew about them (as we indeed see with BR: Morathi and the battletome).

finishing this thread up and i'm honestly surprised the idea of Informed Purchasing hasn't come up more. we're expected to make Informed Purchases in all other parts of our life or else its OUR FAULT... but with GW suddenly it's different and completely fine? it's definitely underhanded of them to stagger releases without giving us much information at all--and the Gravelord leak feels like either an employee(s) or distributor(s) feel the same way.

as much as I like their art and lore in campaign books, I don't think I'm going to buy any more of the BR series, and just wait until AOS 3.0 or a new Stormcast tome to purchase anything else period.

51 minutes ago, yukishiro1 said:

Voting with your wallet is the only thing GW understands, and right now, customers are lining up to let GW take their money, so you're very unlikely to see any significant changes in the way they operate. 

problem with this, like mentioned earlier, is they rely so heavily on excess-income hobbyists ("whales" in f2p game speak) that they seem to not give a **** about making Warhammer financially accessible outside of maybe WHU and Warcry.

[yukishiro1]

And as long as whaling continues to be a viable business strategy, what incentive does GW have to change it up? 

At some point, GW will reach the natural zenith of the growth it can achieve by selling more and more $ worth of stuff to the same people, at which point you may see some more serious efforts at bringing in new people. But we aren't there yet, and GW isn't going to do anything it doesn't see as in its own financial interest just for the sake of being considerate. Multi-billion dollar publicly-owned companies don't run based on doing the nice thing. 

[Sleboda]

On roadmaps:

GW would be foolish to do them for AoS and 40K.

People would be more likely to save up for the things they want and skip stuff that comes out before their chosen items. As much as folks may not want to admit it, impulse control is hard. Not knowing what is coming down the road removes a barrier to impulse purchasing. 

Sure, you may suspect that a new release is coming for your army in four months, but if you don't know it for sure, you are more likely to part with the cash you currently have to excitedly buy what comes out this week, and then find more money in your budget (perhaps you skip a video game or concert down the road in order to buy the toy soldiers that you didn't know were coming but then did) for the next thing later on.

As to other companies in this industry using roadmaps ... yeah, well, let's compare the financials of those companies and GW. It's not even close.

What GW is doing works. It's working very, very well.

 

[Sleboda]

7 hours ago, yukishiro1 said:

At some point, GW will reach the natural zenith of the growth it can achieve by selling more and more $ worth of stuff to the same people, at which point you may see some more serious efforts at bringing in new people. 

People have said this for, literally, several decades. It's like how people rally behind the next miniature wargame as "the one that finally takes down 40K" only to see that system bomb and be dead in under five years.

I worked in GW trade sales. We always knew there was limitless growth potential. World population is increasing, and every newborn whelp becomes a potential customer down the road. We're making more new customers every night in the back seat of our station wagons.

As to efforts at bringing in new customers, I can tell you it's pretty much priority number one for them. Our mantra was "new customers are our life's blood."

Nearly every single decision factored in recruitment. White Dwarf repeats content for a reason. New painting vidoes say the same thing as old ones regularly. Store managers are compelled to run demo games to new people or lose their job.

GW is laser focused on getting new players.

Edited January 27, 2021 by Sleboda

[zilberfrid]

30 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

finishing this thread up and i'm honestly surprised the idea of Informed Purchasing hasn't come up more. we're expected to make Informed Purchases in all other parts of our life or else its OUR FAULT... but with GW suddenly it's different and completely fine? it's definitely underhanded of them to stagger releases without giving us much information at all--and the Gravelord leak feels like either an employee(s) or distributor(s) feel the same way.

as much as I like their art and lore in campaign books, I don't think I'm going to buy any more of the BR series, and just wait until AOS 3.0 or a new Stormcast tome to purchase anything else period.

problem with this, like mentioned earlier, is they rely so heavily on excess-income hobbyists ("whales" in f2p game speak) that they seem to not give a **** about making Warhammer financially accessible outside of maybe WHU and Warcry.

They have increased the price of warbands from €22.50 to €32.50 while reducing the average number of models (as far as I can tell). Even WHU is getting less accessible.

For the price of the box set and a single warband, you can get the rulebook of Frostgrave 2, and some 65 models that fit it. Enough for most encounters and three warbands.

They won't do a roadmap. They want you buying the stuff until the second they dump it, like chaos dwarves, like the sets they dumped in 2019 and like whatever they'll dump next.

People buying into the next powerful thing is also a perverse incentive for rulewriting. This thing is overtuned. People buy it. Then it gets fixed, people buy something else. Why bother trying to write something balanced if that's going to make you less money?

Edited January 26, 2021 by zilberfrid

[Enoby]

14 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

GW would be foolish to do them for AoS and 40K.

People would be more likely to save up for the things they want and skip stuff that comes out before their chosen items. As much as folks may not want to admit it, impulse control is hard. Not knowing what is coming down the road removes a barrier to impulse purchasing. 

This is unfortunately true. If I knew new Slaanesh was coming out, I'd have not bought Lumineth (nothing against them, I just expected like 5 years of bad Slaanesh battletome so wanted tk try something different), but because I didn't know of the new release I gave GW more money (and I'll still buy the new Slaanesh stuff).

You see a lot of people comment on FB "I wish I didn't buy X now Y's coming out, guess I'll buy both" on new releases. Unfortunately, less customer knowledge means more impulse buys and importantly, more hype. If you are the biggest dwarf fan, and you see no dwarf releases in the next six months, then you might lose interest at the initial roadmap reveal. In addition, if you see that your favourite faction is getting a release in sixth months, you might be excited initially but that excitement (and so impulse buy chance) may reduce, and you might even choose to buy less when waiting so you have more room for the new release/buy for the new battletome's rules.