Getting Priced Out

[Doko]

I feel bad when i started a 1500 points of full new buy of dispossesed only months before city of sigmar came and killed 40% of my new non used units....

 

Now i feel happy because im buying big models as karl franz or the celestial hurricanum for only 45€ when those same models in others armys cost 80\120 € lol

The problem is that my only dwarf army is starting to have too much humans and elfs haha

 

In my opinion any model with more than 80€ price is a rip off and i wont buy it,if everyone do the same gw gonna learn and change. But seeing the trend of teclis and gargants....

 

I know that thys hobby is expensive but take you time,per example i spend around two weeks(4 hours daily) building my celestial hurricanum and spend 45€ for two weeks of hobby isnt too much when one movie is 7€ or a ps4 game around 50

[Kadeton]

8 hours ago, Overread said:

Many times its good to pause and step back from your hobby and evaluate if its the price or if its other things too and perhaps if it is time to take a break.

This is so important. People have a tendency to cling to their hobbies long past the point where any joy they once got out of them has drained away, and it builds resentment and bitterness.

I was feeling the sticker shock on recent releases very acutely, but that led me to start thinking about what I was actually feeling excited about in the hobby, what was giving me energy during my relaxing downtimes - and I was coming up empty. The price of entry is definitely a problem (I live in Australia, GW prices are unbelievable) but that isn't the root cause of my discontent.

[Indecisive]

It does feel like they're really pushing it with the price jumps, annual price hikes and kits price creeping upwards at the same time? Honestly, people will pay up quite a bit but everyone has their limit.
The worst part is, it hurts factions differently. Space Marines for example have enough inertia and plenty of people already collecting so a price hiked character is easily absorbed or ignored due to sunk cost. Trying to pitch a brand new army to someone with that cost creeping on the other hand? Likely to get less people buying it which bodes poorly for new factions. The recent prime example is obviously Lumineth.

So it seems like it leads to a dark end of tripling down on space marines and stormcast since those will sell, but they sell because people are already invested enough to accept price hikes and steers people away from new armies.

 

[zilberfrid]

2 hours ago, Doko said:

I feel bad when i started a 1500 points of full new buy of dispossesed only months before city of sigmar came and killed 40% of my new non used units....

Now i feel happy because im buying big models as karl franz or the celestial hurricanum for only 45€ when those same models in others armys cost 80\120 € lol

The problem is that my only dwarf army is starting to have too much humans and elfs haha

In my opinion any model with more than 80€ price is a rip off and i wont buy it,if everyone do the same gw gonna learn and change. But seeing the trend of teclis and gargants....

I know that thys hobby is expensive but take you time,per example i spend around two weeks(4 hours daily) building my celestial hurricanum and spend 45€ for two weeks of hobby isnt too much when one movie is 7€ or a ps4 game around 50

Hurricanum and Karl are awesome models (and for the detailing, on par with other vendors in price/quality). With a bit of kitbashing, your extra general and Beast wizard could be foot heroes, and the Hurricanum can be magnetized to double as a laser as well as providing some four wizards.

A kit like the Greatswords is also barely edging out good due to the extra bits lifting a box of Guards, but kits like the Guard and Handgunners are so low quality that they can't stack up. They are way lower quality than sets like the Warlord Landsknecht kits, while being about double the price per model.

Do keep in mind that the Disposessed that were lost seemed like a good price per model just before they were deleted as well. That uncertainty was a big part of me leaving (price was high + uncertainty of it being "worth" the investment).

With a bit of effort, a Fyreslayer could be a Beast wizard, a few Kharadron could make the Celestial Hurricanum into a technology based thing, and someone like Gotrek could ride that big Griffin. Due to GW's inability to keep a scale, newer dwarves are as tall as older humans anyway.

I do hope your Thunderers are now either Handgunners or Irondrakes, your Miners Longbeards and your Warriors are now Ironbreakers, Longbeards or even Freeguild Guard.

[LuminethMage]

28 minutes ago, Indecisive said:

It does feel like they're really pushing it with the price jumps, annual price hikes and kits price creeping upwards at the same time? Honestly, people will pay up quite a bit but everyone has their limit.
The worst part is, it hurts factions differently. Space Marines for example have enough inertia and plenty of people already collecting so a price hiked character is easily absorbed or ignored due to sunk cost. Trying to pitch a brand new army to someone with that cost creeping on the other hand? Likely to get less people buying it which bodes poorly for new factions. The recent prime example is obviously Lumineth.

So it seems like it leads to a dark end of tripling down on space marines and stormcast since those will sell, but they sell because people are already invested enough to accept price hikes and steers people away from new armies.

 

I would be careful with assumptions of what sells poorly, as we don't know really know. For example right now there are several Lumineth units sold-out online in Australia and New Zealand - which are the prime examples for high prices. Even the dice are mostly gone, although they are really expensive and have been controversial. And even if something didn't sell as much as they thought, it doesn't have to mean it sold poorly overall. They might have drawn the complete opposite conclusion - that they sold a very good amount of Lumineth during a global pandemic and with their flagship 40K release going on simultaneously. 

__________

A lot of good advice here, and I want to put another thumbs up on what @Overread and @Kadeton said: sometimes stepping away a bit is a really good option. For someone who just came back to the hobby after a long hiatus, it all feels fresh again, and I enjoy it tremendously. I also didn't really mind the prices (although cheaper would be always better) because I hadn't spend any money on the hobby for a very long time.

But really, after a few weeks or months away, you do not really miss it. You can do other things, which can bring you the same or a different kind of joy. 

[RuneBrush]

Always an interesting topic to see how people handle their own hobby spend and loads of fantastic tips.  Miniature gaming is very much a premium hobby (though still cheaper than many sports out there) and GW certainly hold the top spot in the way of prices - that said they also hold the top spot for quality of miniature too.

Here's the tenants that I try to live by!

• Regular savings (the Hobby Pot) - I put aside £32.50 a month.  This gets increased if I get some kind of pay increase (e.g. cost of living etc)
• I'll top up my Hobby Pot if I have any cash left aside at the end of the month.  Not all of it, but might see a tenner or two added to the pot
• Avoid new releases like the plague unless you need* them immediately
• Avoid limited edition miniatures unless you need* them
• If in the last quarter of the year, wait to see what Christmas Battleforces appear in December
• Don't buy a full army in one hit, it may be tempting but try to save and purchase a unit (or start collecting/battleforce) at a time
• Try to finish the last purchased unit before buying the next - this is probably the hardest thing
• If you don't have a space for it, you can't buy it
• Any purchases over £30 go to a third-party retailer - Alchemist Workshop or Element Games normally who offer 15%~25% discount depending

I do think that AoS has ended up with a pretty high entry point now because it's sadly become more of an army game where the general thinking is you need to immediately start off playing at 2000 points.  As a few other people have mentioned, we're seeing more and more skirmish sized games being added to GW's range which have a slightly lower entry point and don't escalate to the same level (unless you want it to).  I think these are going to go from strength to strength as time goes on because most don't have a self-perpetuating power creep - or at least that creep is significantly less.  Plus it's a lot easier to justify collecting another warband/gang when you're only looking at one new box and a book.

 

* I need food to live and enough money to keep a roof over my head, it's rare that I need a new miniature

[Kramer]

6 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

* I need food to live and enough money to keep a roof over my head, it's rare that I need a new miniature

I think you got that backwards mate  

[Orsino]

9 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

For Necromunda, I got priced out when I calculated what I'd need in paper to play the game (the outside of the rulebook doesn't say you can't play the game with that book).

Then I spent that money in scenery (mostly trees) and models for Rangers of Shadowdeep. And purchased some Snotlings (blood bowl Ogre team) to make me happy.

It's not that I can't pay it, but I don't think it's worth it to pay GW that much for paper.

I like sets like the Necromunda sets which can be built a multitude of ways, while still being very detailed and dynamic. They are pricy per model, but I think they are worth it.

I don't think things like the Necromunda rulebook are worth it. For the price of that book (which is not enough to play the game), you can buy the Frostgrave rulebook and your whole warband. And you'd need no extra paper to play the game.

There is a compendium of all the Necromunda rules as a free PDF online. I won't share it here but a search for "necromunda rules compendium" should find it. 

[Baron Klatz]

15 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

I do think that AoS has ended up with a pretty high entry point now because it's sadly become more of an army game where the general thinking is you need to immediately start off playing at 2000 points

Feels like that's only in the bigger circles and tourneys. A lot of battles I've seen for beginners and majority of casual play that people have talked about on breaks or while their significant others went upstairs to chat is 500-1000 points for AoS' fun quick games.

That's a big boon about AoS besides all it's cheaper entry points, it's got a great scaleable gateway people can set for themselves instead of being purely forced into go big or go home.

1 hour ago, LuminethMage said:

I would be careful with assumptions of what sells poorly, as we don't know really know. For example right now there are several Lumineth units sold-out online in Australia and New Zealand - which are the prime examples for high prices.

Yeah it's like I mentioned earlier, GW know their audience and to many of them price isn't a barrier. They just see units of elite armies worth the same as Stormcast or Deepkin infantry but double as wizards along with more viable abilities.

It's little different than back in AoS1 with pricey elite armies everywhere and hobby store groups pooling money together to buy the huge Dreadforts.

Just now we have way more avenues to get that stuff cheaper, have lots of updated viable alternative armies and know that GW will pump out better options down the road as the hype settles and the impulse buyers slow down.

 

[RuneBrush]

19 minutes ago, Orsino said:

There is a compendium of all the Necromunda rules as a free PDF online. I won't share it here but a search for "necromunda rules compendium" should find it. 

Think using "free" isn't quite accurate, it was a compilation of all Necromunda supplements that somebody was merging into one document under the assumption you owned all the books involved (having it in one document just made it easier to manage).  Because of this, the author was given a C&D last year (or early this) so any copies you find online are likely going to be out of date and not include the new House books.

9 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

the outside of the rulebook doesn't say you can't play the game with that book

None of GW's rulebooks do - neither the AoS or 40k rulebooks doesn't contain any rules for any armies.

[zilberfrid]

37 minutes ago, Orsino said:

There is a compendium of all the Necromunda rules as a free PDF online. I won't share it here but a search for "necromunda rules compendium" should find it. 

I can get every book illegally. I just don't do that. Going to a different system is my way of dealimg with it.

13 minutes ago, RuneBrush said:

Think using "free" isn't quite accurate, it was a compilation of all Necromunda supplements that somebody was merging into one document under the assumption you owned all the books involved (having it in one document just made it easier to manage).  Because of this, the author was given a C&D last year (or early this) so any copies you find online are likely going to be out of date and not include the new House books.

None of GW's rulebooks do - neither the AoS or 40k rulebooks doesn't contain any rules for any armies.

AoS can be played with the warscrolls in the box (or online), the core rules and the warscroll builder.

I purchased the book in a physical store, and it doesn't say on outside  the book it's useless on its own, only when I tried making a gang did I get my disappointment.

I don't do 40k stuff, I think that system is just predatory. I'm also quite new to wargaming, and systems with less depth are still intrigueing to me.

[sandlemad]

1 hour ago, RuneBrush said:

I do think that AoS has ended up with a pretty high entry point now because it's sadly become more of an army game where the general thinking is you need to immediately start off playing at 2000 points.  As a few other people have mentioned, we're seeing more and more skirmish sized games being added to GW's range which have a slightly lower entry point and don't escalate to the same level (unless you want it to).  I think these are going to go from strength to strength as time goes on because most don't have a self-perpetuating power creep - or at least that creep is significantly less.  Plus it's a lot easier to justify collecting another warband/gang when you're only looking at one new box and a book.

I brought it up in the other thread but it also reflects the capital D Discourse: discussion on TGA, other forums and social media is pretty overwhelmingly focused on listbuilding, competitive gaming of various levels, and matched play battles between large armies, with a lot less attention paid to 'how do you actually get to 2000pts' or 'the existence of other games/modes of play'. I'm sympathetic to the idea that this is simply because it's easy to talk for page after page about this sort of thing, theorycrafting combos and such, mind, I just don't get the impression that it necessarily reflects the majority of games actually being played.

So it's kind of a perception issue when we talk about entry point. GW encourages it on the one hand with its AoS/40k rules while still offering alternatives through those skirmish games but a lot of the baseline assumptions among a lot of hobbyists about what is considered affordable still reflects that atmosphere where a $500+ investment is just taken for granted.

Also RE: Necromunda and rules online, it's worth bearing in mind that that online compilation approach was itself a frustrated response to GW/SG's byzantine and seriously unfriendly way of releasing and updating their Necromunda rules. Seriously, as bad as it is now, it's miles better than the slap-dash money-grubbing approach taken early on in N17's life cycle. The compilation was made by and for a small community that had kept the game alive for years without any support, and met a genuine need. Regardless of how you feel about it, it was a popular player aid because it filled a need.

Edited October 7, 2020 by sandlemad

[Marcvs]

1 minute ago, sandlemad said:

So it's kind of a perception issue when we talk about entry point. GW encourages it on the one hand with its AoS/40k rules while still offering alternatives through those skirmish games but a lot of the baseline assumptions among a lot of hobbyists about what is considered affordable still reflects that atmosphere where a $500+ investment is just taken for granted.

I think this depends on your local scene. In my experience of playing in a medium-sized city in continental europe, it would be incredibly hard to find opponents for a smaller game (aside, in this period, for 40k crusade admittedly), let alone any specialist game, whereas I can find a 2k game every weekend if I got the time for that. So, the baseline assumption always rung true to me, just as the amount of initial investment required to actually play the game.

[sandlemad]

3 minutes ago, Marcvs said:

I think this depends on your local scene. In my experience of playing in a medium-sized city in continental europe, it would be incredibly hard to find opponents for a smaller game (aside, in this period, for 40k crusade admittedly), let alone any specialist game, whereas I can find a 2k game every weekend if I got the time for that. So, the baseline assumption always rung true to me, just as the amount of initial investment required to actually play the game.

That's really unfortunate and if I were in similar circumstances I honestly would have been driven out entirely.

[zilberfrid]

5 minutes ago, sandlemad said:

I brought it up in the other thread but it also reflects the capital D Discourse: discussion on TGA, other forums and social media is pretty overwhelmingly focused on listbuilding, competitive gaming of various levels, and matched play battles between large armies, with a lot less attention paid to 'how do you actually get to 2000pts' or 'the existence of other games/modes of play'. I'm sympathetic to the idea that this is simply because it's easy to talk for page after page about this sort of thing, theorycrafting combos and such, but I don't get the impression that it necessarily reflects the majority of games actually being played.

So it's kind of a perception issue when we talk about entry point. GW encourages it on the one hand with its AoS/40k rules while still offering alternatives through those skirmish games but a lot of the baseline assumptions among a lot of hobbyists about what is considered affordable still reflects that atmosphere where a $500+ investment is just taken for granted.

I would like to note that ebay, craigslist or similar can get you an army cheaply. I have about 6000 points of Cities, and spent about 400 on that, and that's including a gaming table.

I'll be selling off a lot of it, I don't need 120 guard and 80 handgunners, and have some 12 wizards and 6 generals, but some stuff I really like and would like to keep (Karl, Hurricanum, a few demis, Greatswords a few Pistoleers/Outriders, some knights, some artillery, Gyrocopters).

[Marcvs]

Just now, sandlemad said:

That's really unfortunate and if I were in similar circumstances I honestly would have been driven out entirely.

well, the club where I play offers plenty of very good alternatives for less expensive choices, so it's not really that bad. In fact, our ASOIAF community has grown so much during last year that it rivals 40k in size and surely beats it in sheer activity, plus there's plenty of lovers of boxed games with miniatures. Still, since I wanted to play AoS / 40k , 2k was the only credible option.

[Gotz]

you can always check how they encourage newcomers to tackle the "hobby" in local GW stores... they're not going to push any newbie to get a 2000p army at the begining. What they usually do (as someone suggested in this thread or the rumors one, can't remember) is encourage, and run, escalation leagues that last something like  6 months. You can start with a start collecting and then each month add a unit or a hero... at the end of the 6 months you're probably going to be close to 2k points, have painted quite a lot of the minis and played a bunch of games (i'll check the numbers later today with some sample armies to fact check the points and spending over 6mo)

 

[Howdyhedberg]

3 hours ago, zilberfrid said:

I do hope your Thunderers are now either Handgunners or Irondrakes, your Miners Longbeards and your Warriors are now Ironbreakers, Longbeards or even Freeguild Guard.

I noticed that when I put down one of my great swords in my box with my Lumineth army. Freguild looks way tiny! 

I'm tempted to get Karl Franz too, but I'm wondering if they won't just make a new one later for the old world (but it would probably cost a lot). I'm on the edge to get teclis too... I did not like the look of the model in the begining, but now I think it looks alright! 

I wonder if it will become cheaper down the line?

I haven't played in a store, but I heard from my local gw store that they usually only play with around 750 points 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Howdyhedberg

[Rodiger]

Maybe another thing that hasn't been mentioned, is to be content with what you have already. If you've been doing this most of your life then you must have a sizeable collection. The only things we really 'need' are things like paints as they run out. New armies etc are just things we desire.

If you are a tournament player then maybe, try win with what you have.

If however you just really want that model, then wait a while, see if you still want it, sell some stuff you don't want if you have too.

I don't know what kind of priced out you are. Is it can't afford it, or not willing to pay for it?  I would say I've been priced out, but it is because I am just refusing to pay that price for stuff nowadays, I've been burnt on expensive books with short life spans too many times and I never impulse buy anything any more. The only spending I do do  goes on things with a limited shelf life like Blackstone Fortress. If it is a permanent thing then it can stay on the shelf until I will be using it.

I think I would have bought a lot more this year if we hadn't had 2 price rises. I would have gotten a 2nd Lord of Change, but I refuse to buy it because it had a huge price rise just so all the Greater Deamons could be the same price. The Mega Gargant looks great, but no way am I going to pay that much for it. If it was more in line with an Imperial Knight I may have bought one at some point. 

And we are still in the middle of a pandemic, things are ok now for me, but who knows what this winter will bring, Warhammer is an expensive luxury. The fable about the ant and the grasshopper I think is very relevant right now. Personally I've cut spending on every expensive luxury and I'm trying to save. 

[zilberfrid]

30 minutes ago, Howdyhedberg said:

I noticed that when I put down one of my great swords in my box with my Lumineth army. Freguild looks way tiny! 

I'm tempted to get Karl Franz too, but I'm wondering if they won't just make a new one later for the old world (but it would probably cost a lot). I'm on the edge to get teclis too... I did not like the look of the model in the begining, but now I think it looks alright! 

I wonder if it will become cheaper down the line?

I haven't played in a store, but I heard from my local gw store that they usually only play with around 750 points 

Freeguild Greatswords are already quite big for humans, and Lumineth are even bigger? GW has really let themselves go...

Karl Franz on Deathclaw is a really nice set, it has three head options for the griffin (and the fit is such that you can switch them out) and three chestplates that can really improve a bit of scenery if they are not on the model, the model is impressive and detailed, and there's a mage and another General in the box. These guys are also even bigger than the regular GW humans, so might fit your Lumineth

I don't think GW makes stuff cheaper, ever.

[Aeryenn]

If those prices turn out to be true (150 euro for mega gargants) it will be the first time I wish GW's product doesn't sell. If we accept those steep prices we will sadly witness GW to charge 200-250 euro for a single behemot model in a few years. I won't pay for anybody's greed.

[Greybeard86]

14 minutes ago, Aeryenn said:

If those prices turn out to be true (150 euro for mega gargants) it will be the first time I wish GW's product doesn't sell. If we accept those steep prices we will sadly witness GW to charge 200-250 euro for a single behemot model in a few years. I won't pay for anybody's greed.

There is a market for this kind of stuff; in 40k it is knights and titans and gargants are the very equivalent for AoS.

I guess here one has to keep in mind that, as consumers, we are only tiny fish whereas GW is a big fish. Sometimes they won't be targetting our demographic, and I guess that is fine. It is important to try to stay as rational as possible when making these purchases, GW has "good" marketing and nice sculpts.

To sum it up, just keep your cool and don't spam the buy botton (swatting my hand away from a 300 bucks NIB Giants of Albion set).

[flemingmma]

3d printing, second hand miniatures, have a hard price limit on what you will buy, mortal realms magazine

[Fulcanelli]

Yes, I agree with @Rodiger.

Also it's worth to examine our conscience and recalling that is not mandatory to buy everything we like.
Sure, prices are pretty crazy right now, but I think to speak on behalf of some of you, when I admit that I tend to accumulate a lot of kits that I haven't time to work on.

Sure "I'll need this piece to finish my army" or "That's a bargain! I must take it now!"... but in the end I always have a stockpike under my workbench that someday I'll paint... So maybe I have to slow down and buy only what I can paint today and not tomorrow. When I'll finish a unit, I'll buy a new one, and so on.

In this manner spending will be spread over time and maybe I might even buy that expensive giant...  

[Scurvydog]

Mierce miniatures put their giants at half price and they even got one at mega gargants size. 

GW is enabled by things like store policies of GW only models for warhammer and those players who refuses to play against proxies and are wysiwyg purists, even if it costs them a much larger community to enjoy the hobby with. 

GW needs competition, they need those kickstarters we are seeing now to replace model lines they neglect but charge crazy prices for poor finecast products. If people accept 3rd parties in the warhammer hobby, GW will have to work hard to ensure their products are preferred and price is a huge part of that. 

The sons release is disappointing due to pricing. I expected the big guys to cost the same as archaon or 40k knight castellant, but not much more! Also the duo gargants box is very poor value of what could have been hoped for.