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Gareth ūüćĄ

Warhammer - The Old World

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I think it would be a very risky move to change scale. As was said here, the molds are reeeeally expensive to make. I’d suspect smaller molds are not that much cheaper. If an 28mm old world game doesn’t sell as expected, they’d still have customers from other games, and could even reintroduce fitting models quite easily back into AoS (just repackaging them with round bases). If a 10mm old world game flops, there are not many people who would be interested in the miniatures I think.

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It is not going to be a smaller scale, GW marketing is too slick now, they would not have made square base memes, WFB jokes and the like if there was even a sniff of this being a completely unrelated game to WFB other then being the same setting,

None of the games that have made a return from GW in the last few years have come back completely different from what they were before, they might have new models that are slightly different scale, some new options but they are still the same games at their core just with a modern twist.

They would be calling this Warmaster if this was going to be small scale game.

I just wish the change of management in GW that understood the value of all their games and IP had happened before they killed off WFB.

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52 minutes ago, Golgfag said:

It is not going to be a smaller scale, GW marketing is too slick now, they would not have made square base memes, WFB jokes and the like if there was even a sniff of this being a completely unrelated game to WFB other then being the same setting,

None of the games that have made a return from GW in the last few years have come back completely different from what they were before, they might have new models that are slightly different scale, some new options but they are still the same games at their core just with a modern twist.

They would be calling this Warmaster if this was going to be small scale game.

I just wish the change of management in GW that understood the value of all their games and IP had happened before they killed off WFB.

I still think the scale is very much up for question - classic Warhammer was 25mm scale, AoS (and arguably End Times miniatures) are 28mm heroic.  That's a big difference between the two without even delving into other scales.  I'd also say that if they were bringing fantasy battle back then it would have been called Warhammer Fantasy Battle, not The Old World.  By giving it a brand new name they have the scope to make something amazing!

Bloodbowl is really the only Specialist Game that's not been changed, followed by Aeronatica (which went back to a hex grid).  Titanicus received a lot of polishing and Necromunda is pretty much a different game with the exception of a few things (and arguably one of their most popular games for new and veteran players alike).  At their cores, they're all "the same game", but I think the Specialist Games Studio has shown that they're able to bring those game systems up to the 21st century without losing their essence.

Without going into "that conversation", the end times happened because the game had lost something and was felt it couldn't be recovered.  Regardless of the reasons for this (of which none of us truly have the full picture), The Old World will have to be different in order to have got it agreed as a project.  Now to what extent it will be different nobody knows, it's so early in the project that I can't imagine it's even been decided yet.

 

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You could be right, I just heavily doubt modern GW would make such a monumental mistep in their initial marketing, they know what they were suggesting, they know how it would have been seen and read by the community, I very much doubt a bait & switch is coming with them allowing years of of speculation only to give lovers of the old WFB another nasty kick while they are down. 

The name change is pure marketing in my opinion, rather then a suggestion of a completely unrelated game, the idea being to make it easier for someone new to understand the difference at a glance between their products , Warhammer Fantasy Battle is about as generic a name as possible, Warhammer The Old World is clearly a different setting to AoS.

I am not saying they will not build a new version of the game from the ground up like they have with Necromunda, I hope they do, I just believe that it will still recognisably be what came before, same factions, same or similar sized models, same ranked combat style of game especially considering  seven armies from WFB still have the majority of their models on sale now, sure they might only currently come with round bases, have a shiny new logo on the box but they are still classic WFB models that could be easily packaged & sold to lovers of the Old World with minimal effort by GW, I cannot believe they will pass on easy money. 

The End Times sadly did not have to happen, they had no need to do that, WFB could have easily been fixed if given the chance by more competant management, in the same way modern GW have brought fresh life in to 40k, LOTR & the various former specialist games, I am just glad they appear to be fixing that error now.

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11 minutes ago, Golgfag said:

The End Times sadly did not have to happen, they had no need to do that, WFB could have easily been fixed if given the chance by more competant management, in the same way modern GW have brought fresh life in to 40k,

Gold

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Posted (edited)

I vastly prefer the new setting, gameplay, progressive plot and epic fantasy aesthetic with infinite possibilities to the old one so am very glad End Times happened (plus I enjoyed them, the scenarios were fun) and gave us this glorious game.

 

HOWEVER, I do agree they should've just moved Wfb over to Forge World and let it continue there. That way it couldn't drive them into bankruptcy anymore while Age of Sigmar continued to flourish in it's place as the new main game while wfb existed as a smaller sidegame like it will eventually.

Edit: Also I agree with Runebrush on scale change. It would be the best way to avoid the army problem Wfb had and get players to buy new models to justify the game.

Because i've seen so many old hobbyists buying from Ebay already and 4-5 years of that means only the rule books will sell. xD

Edited by Baron Klatz
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I had a longer response but decided to curtail it, as I have no desire to be drawn in to a debate over which setting is superior, I joined here because ironically despite the main purpose of this forum being AoS it seemed to be the only place to have a reasonable discussion over the returning Old World , this place seems a haven from bitter ex players who cannot get over their hatred of everything GW or those dancing on the grave of WFB.

I will say though the idea WFB was driving GW in to bankruptcy is laughable, WFB needed fixing not killing as it was never the models, setting or game style that failed, blame belongs firmly at the feet of the old management and rules design teams.

I will take a break from posting for a while though, back to working on my classic Dwarf army, cheers people. 

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Posted (edited)

Not saying which setting is superior,  just expressing my love for the new one despite having started in the one at 7th edition and collecting Bretonnia along with obsessively grabbing up every novel to the Hammer and Bolster short stories and MMO spin-off novels.

When AoS was revealed I fell in love and dropped it all for the new setting, Stormcasts and a revitalized fandom  that was free of the more toxic elements (many thanks to Mantic for that, they aggressively made sure people knew they would take them in).

The Bankruptcy was real 2015 they showed they were near the red. It came from a lot of factors but Fantasy was costing them millions while only bringing in 5% profit, lower than paint primer.  That's not sustainable at all and needed drastic changes.

Then AoS turned things around.

Quote

"40k/30k basically held the line for all of GW in the last few years, since AoS, and before that Warhammer Fantasy. In last year's annual report, the CEO let slip a point that AoS, despite its unpopularity, had already outdid Warhammer Fantasy's sales for years, just to show how bad things had been."

Could it have been different? Of course but that's a change that should've happened at 6th edition or even earlier as things had been in decline for a long time.

However let's avoid that because it's a can of worms (Runebrush did warn us).

Anyway there's better things ahead and Old World has a chance to continue. I have no interest in it but hopeful it'll bring the communities to better terms despite some pretty severe opinions from both sides.

Point on scale change remains though. It has many benefits to it that could generate the income GW expects for the game to justify itself.

Edited by Baron Klatz

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Posted (edited)

I screwed up the quote. It's in the quotations, the rest is my response. xD

Edited by Baron Klatz

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On 1/6/2020 at 10:02 AM, RuneBrush said:

So, I was fortunate enough to be at the New Year Open day on Saturday and sat in the Specialist Games seminar.  Somebody did ask the question about The Old World and there was a small bit of conversation about it.  Nothing was actually revealed, so the following is my own impression of what I'd call the "current thinking".

Only a few things are cast in stone.  From a project perspective, other than being given the green light by GW management, they're still discussing the design brief.

The reason behind the project is that Games Workshop is most well known for Warhammer, which is synonymous with huge armies and battlefields where you have ranked units fighting against each other.   It was felt that Age of Sigmar is now well established enough that now was a good time to do something that related to GW's ancestral roots.

Square bases are indeed one of the things that is 100% confirmed.

The Old World isn't going to change the setting & history of Warhammer, the End Times happened and ultimately led way to Age of Sigmar.  However there are a few thousand years worth of events to explore.  This reinforces my thinking that we're may have a basic ruleset and then campaign style books that introduce races and specific battles and historic events.

It appears that it will be treated in the same manner as one of the other Specialist Games - so given a small team of people including a rules writer, sculptor etc.  To my mind this means we need to be realistic in our expectations, so something more in line with  Adeptus Titanicus rather than what we originally got when Age of Darkness (Horus Heresy) came out.  It certainly isn't going to have release schedule of Age of Sigmar in either models or rules.

I didn't get the impression we were looking at Warmaster scale (6mm if memory serves) for the game, however there was no indication exactly what we would be looking at.  Talking about huge armies may mean we go back to classic 25mm scale (AoS is 28 heroic), or alternatively we could see something like 15mm or 10mm (which is what AT is).  I'm not even sure this decision has been made.  In all honesty even if they do drop in scale there's no reason we couldn't use the rules with our old collections and tweak ranges.  Annoyingly I should have asked the question on scale (I'm blaming a 4.30am start for my brain not firing on all cylinders).

I got the distinct impression that the game system wasn't simply going to be a clone of 8th edition with tweaks.  The people looking at The Old World are people who have played Warhammer all their lives so I could see something that is a hybrid of lots of systems, whilst maintaining a faithful link to the Warhammer game system that we all know.  One interesting point that Andy Hoare has said before is that the brain is a fickle thing and when we remember playing games as children we only remember the good bits.  If we went to play that rule system as an adult we'd be a lot more aware of when things didn't work very smoothly.

Although it will pay homage to the various iterations of Warhammer, it's not being done to compete with Age of Sigmar.

One point I think is worth highlighting is that it's important to remember that the people who work within Specialist Games enjoy the narrative and lore aspect of gaming.  If you look at all of the games they currently produce there are numerous instances where certain teams/gangs/forces are rarely going to be winning most of their games - if you take Bloodbowl as an example, Halflings are probably one of the weakest teams going and that was a very deliberate design choice.  That's not to say there isn't a competitive aspect to those game systems, but that is rarely going to be the focus of those games and certain forces do have a definitive edge.

 

As an addition, I was in the Age of Sigmar seminar earlier and Ben Johnson confirmed that there isn't any form of formal discussion between the Specialist Games and AoS studios (I'm meaning interdepartmental discussion here, not that they've fallen out with each other).  This is deliberate and as Ben pointed out makes The Old World really exciting for players such as him that have played classic fantasy battle.  What that means is it's no use pestering him (or other people within the AoS studio) for information - they have exactly the same amount of knowledge that we have!

Thank you A LOT Runebrush for those informations ! The confirmed square bases and your impression toward more similarities with the Horus Heresy in terms of structure and format fills me with hope. 

....But to be frank, from an AOS point of view, I think the announcement was a bit early in comparison to were AOS is now. 

i. First of all, we don't have maps nor timeline for half the Mortal Realms (Azyr, Ghur, Ulgu, Hysh). The universe is in this aspect only half developed at this point. 

ii. The RPG isn't even out yet (well, we have news for a Q1-2 release 2020, so...). That is said with hopes it will contain lots of world building.

iii. And they don't have released a proper Order Human faction yet (still hoping for a Devoted Of Sigmar / Order Of Azyr revamp, or some Warcry human-Order season, or expanded Warhammer Quest).

I know they still have 2-4 years to accomplish that (and the first true step was taken with that wonderful Malign Portents website and video, and then the new Core Book). Only then will AOS be established enough and sufficiently distinguishable from WFB (in terms of world building) for me to truly welcome The Old World back :) 

 

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It's hopeful this year or next we'll see some new Realm Freeguilds.

Back in 2017 several people talked to GW about that at Warhammerfest, including our good friend Shinros, and they said they were planning on human facions with distinct characteristics for each Realm.

The following year we got the Corebook showing the artwork for humans in that style and now we have the Warcry warbands acting as prototypes.

If we're lucky Cities of Sigmar will be exactly like Legions of Nagash and get us Realmguilds as it that did NightHaunt.

So it's coming soon. :)

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14 hours ago, Golgfag said:

The End Times sadly did not have to happen, they had no need to do that, WFB could have easily been fixed if given the chance by more competant management, in the same way modern GW have brought fresh life in to 40k, LOTR & the various former specialist games, I am just glad they appear to be fixing that error now.

I 100% agree with you but it's a bit naive to think like that.

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On 1/7/2020 at 11:53 PM, Golgfag said:

 I joined here because ironically despite the main purpose of this forum being AoS it seemed to be the only place to have a reasonable discussion over the returning Old World , this place seems a haven from bitter ex players who cannot get over their hatred of everything GW or those dancing on the grave of WFB.

I really don’t think  this place is a haven for bitter ex players and WFB grave dancers (new undead unit?). I think you’ll find that these types of posts are generally met with pushback; it’s just that the more extreme opinions tend to stick out in our minds. There are only a few agitators looking for conflict /venting. I mostly see people who love both settings and competitive aos players. Personally I do like both settings, and I’m glad they’re bringing back the old world. I hope you’ll come back to posting as moderate people need to be heard lest these kinds of debates turn into pointless flame wars!

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On 1/8/2020 at 5:35 PM, Beliman said:

I 100% agree with you but it's a bit naive to think like that.

I kind of also agree but with same caveats.  Classic Fantasy was definitely spinning in the mud creatively.  The last major new Army was Ogre Kingdoms about a decade before End Times.  I'm in the personal opinion that AoS allowed GW to go crazy with off the wall ideas and concepts.  Now that they have had a break for a while they can go back to Fantasy (Old World) with some fresh eyes.  I bet its a bit like returning home after a long eventful vacation.  I say this as someone who absoustly hated the End Times and the start of AoS.  I swore up and down I would never buy another GW mini in my life (I chuckle as i stare at me assortment of Fyreslayers and Airships).

Right now it's a good time to be a Fantasy fan.  I firmly believe there is enough room for two systems in the genre.  A high fantasy, round base skirmish game with big monsters and Champions and a more lower fantasy,large armies clashing filled with rows of troops and war machines. 

Even if your only a fan of one setting over the other you will have to admit that there will be a multitude of cross over conversion opportunists, as long as they keep the mini's the same size.  

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On 1/8/2020 at 3:35 AM, Beliman said:

I 100% agree with you but it's a bit naive to think like that.

I can't agree with the two of you.  8th fundamentally was a system that wasn't attracting new players and   wasn't making sales for stores.    This isn't because GW was a bad company (40K was doing very well at that time.)    It's because 8th  was a very difficult system to get into as a new player -  and there was a whole industry of  third party companies (and ebaying  of 20 year old models) selling GW alternatives to veterans the sum of those two things   meant local independent stores weren't making much in the way of sales.   It was a feed forward cycle too stores weren't hosting demos or tournaments as it wasn't making them sales, and new players weren't entering the system in part because they weren't seeing demos or local events to go to.   

Note I'm not anti 8th by any means I started playing WFB in 1990 so I've seen essentially the vast majority of WFB editions, and I was a highly active player throughout most of that span.  Without going through all the details again  I was very active nationally and internationally in supporting 8th ed.    Our club was one of the strongest 8th ed clubs in the US but we weren't seeing much in the way of new players through the latter part of 8th. 

While I liked 8th quite a bit it was very hard to teach to someone who didn't have years of WFB experience.    Wheeling, charge nuances, line of sight rules etc.   You couldn't really play until you had a strong grasp on those things.    This is in sharp contrast to a gaming industry that was generally  moving to simpler and easier to get into systems.      The 8th core rules were a lot longer the nour 16 pages currently + additional optional items and the 8th ed core rules had a very long (and necessary) FAQ despite that.  

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32 minutes ago, gjnoronh said:

I can't agree with the two of you.  8th fundamentally was a system that wasn't attracting new players and   wasn't making sales for stores.    This isn't because GW was a bad company (40K was doing very well at that time.)    It's because 8th  was a very difficult system to get into as a new player -  and there was a whole industry of  third party companies (and ebaying  of 20 year old models) selling GW alternatives to veterans the sum of those two things   meant local independent stores weren't making much in the way of sales.   It was a feed forward cycle too stores weren't hosting demos or tournaments as it wasn't making them sales, and new players weren't entering the system in part because they weren't seeing demos or local events to go to.   

Note I'm not anti 8th by any means I started playing WFB in 1990 so I've seen essentially the vast majority of WFB editions, and I was a highly active player throughout most of that span.  Without going through all the details again  I was very active nationally and internationally in supporting 8th ed.    Our club was one of the strongest 8th ed clubs in the US but we weren't seeing much in the way of new players through the latter part of 8th. 

While I liked 8th quite a bit it was very hard to teach to someone who didn't have years of WFB experience.    Wheeling, charge nuances, line of sight rules etc.   You couldn't really play until you had a strong grasp on those things.    This is in sharp contrast to a gaming industry that was generally  moving to simpler and easier to get into systems.      The 8th core rules were a lot longer the nour 16 pages currently + additional optional items and the 8th ed core rules had a very long (and necessary) FAQ despite that.  

I wasn't talking about 8 edition. I was just talking about Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Edited by Beliman

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On 1/7/2020 at 10:28 AM, RuneBrush said:

classic Warhammer was 25mm scale, AoS (and arguably End Times miniatures) are 28mm heroic

Their scaling did vary from time to time, though.  My old Marauder Dark Elves are on a scale with the more modern Aelves.  Just finished re-basing them and they fit right in.

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44 minutes ago, Beliman said:

I wasn't talking about 8 edition. I was just talking about Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

Gotcha. Agreed that's a different argument.  You could have put AoS 1st ed simplicity with or without ranks into the Old World environment and I think have a fairly successful product.  Kings of War is  roughly a mid point complexity product between AoS 1 and WFB.   

I'm not sure that the the Old World itself resonates as well with a generation that grew up on World of Warcraft/Skyrim etc as it did with my generation that grew up on Tolkien and early editions of Dungeons and Dragons.   I'm curious  if KoW or 9th are attracting as many teens and 20 somethings as AoS.     I think the open ended over the top style of AoS may resonate more with that group.   

 

 

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Don't forget Magic the Gathering and Dark Souls too which are majorly in favor of AoS and it's high/epic fantasy style as all three are over-the-top settings with different realities. A big draw of Stormcasts were how easy they were to convert to Dark Souls knights/stone knights and had a similar theme of warriors serving a god-king and losing humanity in their battles against demons.

With Fromsoft about to launch Elden Ring which they said will be their craziest setting yet with Norse and Ragnarok tones AoS came out at the perfect time to capitalize on such fantastical settings.

Anyway I'm definitely in the boat that End Times was a good thing (and probably should've launched instead of 8th so it had more time and avoided 8th's failure when 7th was already selling less than the Gotrek novels). When 8th's biggest lore change is that Franz has a new desire for 9 foot tall knights then you know your creativity has petered out for a setting. xD

But back on topic before that nonsense, I'm all but betting we're seeing a smaller scale. Since they confirmed the AoS studio won't communicate with the new game then it means they won't coordinate well which supports a new scale entirely.

Smaller and cheaper both gets old players to buy new models and attracts the TWW crowd who this is likely aimed at since the trilogy ends in 2022 when the license expires.

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The thing is, I enjoy AoS as a game. However, at no point do I feel like I am taking the role of a war general, but merely playing a game. A good game, yes. But a game, nonetheless...

GW might feel like making a more "serious" product that plays more like a war simulation and, to that end, I would love it to be Warmaster (but guess it will be 25/28 mm rank-and-file, instead).

Edited by Kyriakin
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On 1/11/2020 at 5:46 AM, Kyriakin said:

GW might feel like making a more "serious" product that plays more like a war simulation and, to that end, I would love it to be Warmaster (but guess it will be 25/28 mm rank-and-file, instead).

I hope not! I remember playing historical games when I was younger and the club I played at treated them as simulations, which basically led to arguments about what X could do against Y. As a child this put me off any game which tries to do this!

Personally I’m hoping for something a bit like Warmaster and WFB. I think they will cherry pick the best bits from all games they have made over the years. Like @RuneBrush mentioned earlier, we remember the best bits more easily than the bad bits and I think a lot of games we used to play would seem clunky or not quite right. 

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29 minutes ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I hope not! I remember playing historical games when I was younger and the club I played at treated them as simulations, which basically led to arguments about what X could do against Y. As a child this put me off any game which tries to do this!

Personally I’m hoping for something a bit like Warmaster and WFB. I think they will cherry pick the best bits from all games they have made over the years. Like @RuneBrush mentioned earlier, we remember the best bits more easily than the bad bits and I think a lot of games we used to play would seem clunky or not quite right. 

I see those arguements in warhammer circles just as much as in historicals

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49 minutes ago, Turin Turambar said:

I see those arguements in warhammer circles just as much as in historicals

Lol! That is true ūü§£

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16 hours ago, Gaz Taylor said:

I hope not! I remember playing historical games when I was younger and the club I played at treated them as simulations, which basically led to arguments about what X could do against Y. As a child this put me off any game which tries to do this!

Funny, historicals wargamers are usually the opposite in my experience, far more likely in games like Flames of War to take an 'authentic' force than whatever is the most overpowered combination of units very little historical context or grounding, as well as scenarios and terrain that's not strictly fair if it makes sense in context.

Hell, it's why 30k's community is often compared to historical wargaming so much. the emphasis on fluff and immersion than raw stats. 

Edited by Clan's Cynic

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