Warhammer - The Old World

[Dead Scribe]

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

[Horseburner]

5 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

It most likely won't. It's x years until we are there. They will play, like they should, but they should not expect WHFB to be coming back as it was.

I think the hysteria will die somewhat as soon as people actually realize that.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Horseburner
Wording.

[Hollow]

This announcment has been met with genuine cheer! 

I think it is interesting that they chose "The Old World" subtitle and map to go with it, rather than the 'World' map that we saw in the 8th edition rulebook. I'd love it if the main 'Factions" are Bretonnia, The Empire, Estalia, Tilea, The Badlands, Albion, Kislev and Norsca with a smattering of other races such as beastmen and greenskins as disorganised feral tribes, with the main focus being on the wars of men with a kind of 'low-magic' vibe to contrast with the 'high-magic' vibe of AoS. The forces would be square based and the size of 4th/5th edition armies. 

[Hollow]

25 minutes ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

I really don't understand this. You were gutted because lots of people turned up to play games and have fun? 

[Rhivan]

1 hour ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

You just said it's a bunch of people you've never seen before. Quite a few (if not all) of those older guys who play AoS now won't quit and new/old blood will come in via this renewed interest in the old world from WHFB players or those that became interested via the video games.

 

You're reaction right now seems to be fearmongering and paranoia. Things will only grow from both games, it will be fine.

[JPjr]

5 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.

Don’t stress, you’ll have the last laugh. Just wait until they realise that they could have done this at literally any point over the past 4/5 years and didn’t need to wait for a tenuous non-announcement from GW, they’ll feel like right idiots!

[Gilboy]

59 minutes ago, JPjr said:

Don’t stress, you’ll have the last laugh. Just wait until they realise that they could have done this at literally any point over the past 4/5 years and didn’t need to wait for a tenuous non-announcement from GW, they’ll feel like right idiots!

This is basically the key confusion for me, as someone who bought some WHFB minis as a kid but never played, and now have only played AoS.  All the rulebooks, battletomes, models etc. for WHFB all still exist.    If this announcement is just that WHFB is back then I don't get the excitement because the only thing that stopped was official GW rules support.  But there have been 8 full editions of rules (plus 9th age) already: just pick whichever one you like most and play it.   And it's not like many of those players were buying new models (given the whole reason why WHFB was ended) so a lack of new models with square bases had limited impact.

[sandlemad]

6 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Surely this is the key thing though, that there were folks who weren’t interested in AoS and hadn’t become interested in it in several years. You’re losing nothing by them actually having a game to play.

What’s the alternative here? They weren’t going to play AoS with you. Why is it such a problem/existential threat that they are playing a game instead of sitting at home or doing other things? If current AoS  players start playing a little WHFB, they’re not going to throw away their AoS stuff, any more than players who dip into specialist games or Underworlds or similar.

[Beastmaster]

1 hour ago, JPjr said:

Don’t stress, you’ll have the last laugh. Just wait until they realise that they could have done this at literally any point over the past 4/5 years and didn’t need to wait for a tenuous non-announcement from GW, they’ll feel like right idiots!

That’s not how a critical mass works.

[Icegoat]

6 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

Sadly yes this is definitely true. I mean total war vermintide they are all set in the old world and are ripe for miniature form. Wfb was my childhood and teenage years. Seeing my old enemies the high elves go the way of the dodo in age of sigmar was a sad time. 

Now bring them back in three years time. With my own chaos army to fight them and I cold happily abandon AOS forever. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

6 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

Shame they didn’t show as much enthusiasm when 8th was out 😉

I wouldn’t worry crikey I’d probably have a game of WFB for nostalgia’s sake as a one off same for 40K Rogue Trader doesn’t mean I’m not going to play the new stuff. 
 

There might be a silver lining the fellas you’ve not seen before may stick around and play some games of AoS and find out they like what it’s evolved into. 

[Kyriakin]

8 hours ago, Aelfric said:

When I compare this to some of what was said when AOS was formed, I have to say it makes me happy to see this community taking things like this in its stride and be able to discuss it with such consideration.  Long may it continue. 

That's not really a fair comparison.

• One is the sudden extinction of a game and setting that had been around for 30 years, and replaced with something completely different that was initially flawed in many respects.
• One is a hint of a game in the distant future that will almost certainly not replace the current game.

Your message feels like it is throwing shade on the WHFB community compared to the AoS one.

While the AoS community may indeed be "better", let's not pretend that this so-called upheaval to AoS players even remotely compares to that upheaval for WHFB fans back in 2015.

It's not even close.

To have a fair comparison, you would have to have GW have released a video or book where the Mortal Realms are suddenly destroyed, half its miniature range is squatted and then a teaser video is released to say that the Old World has returned to replace the Mortal Realms with a new rank-and-file game on square bases.

Then the AoS community - myself very much included - would be up in arms, and rightly so.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Kyriakin

[Overread]

59 minutes ago, Icegoat said:

Now bring them back in three years time. With my own chaos army to fight them and I cold happily abandon AOS forever. 

Based on some of your recent posts it sounds like even without this news, you were fast heading out the door wanting/looking for a reason to justify abandoning AoS. 

And that's the thing. The people who will "leave AoS" are those who likely aren't all that enthralled with it. Who wanted Old World and Rank and File. Without GW they would have likely just drifted away from the group and left or moved to 40K or 9th Age or Kings of War. Ergo they were already leaving, whilst when they remained they might have been a local source of complaint about AoS rather than full support of it.

 

This won't "split the community". Horus Heresy didn't split the 40K block. What's more likely is that we'll see a different generation and block of gamers come into clubs; growing them (That is, of course, if you run a hobby club and not "only AoS" club). We'll see growth of the market. Plus you can bet many many people will play both. 

 

Again all this talk of doom and gloom of the end of AoS is overblown. There's already competition within GW for fantasy, its called Lord of the Rings. Theres always competition outside of GW with other rank and file game systems. Kings of War even don't do a good job of building their own brand loyalty (though it seems they slowly are) and thus many people use GW models in Kings of War game.s 

[Turin Turambar]

3 minutes ago, Overread said:

Plus you can bet many many people will play both. 

If i were a betting man then I would bet on GW specifically designing the game to allow factions and parts of factions with crossover to make crossover as easy as possible.

encourage as many Sylvaneth players to buy wood elf specific models and visa versa, for an easy example.

[Overread]

GW will most certainly have things crossing over. Even if they don't the preservation of the same scale will mean that gamers will cross things over on their own. Heck the fact that AoS is pushing toward high fantasy and steam punk concepts might mean that things such as, Cities of Sigmar, could go through some big visual shifts in their AoS line when GW comes to pay attention to updating and adding to the force. Meanwhile Old World will preserve the older style of design in a lower fantasy setting. So you can easily have two very different design ethos for the "same faction" at their core. Players will easily adapt to using bits of both and swapping them over. 

Heck Demon players have been swapping armies between AoS and 40K and 40K and Old World for yeras. 

[Kyriakin]

2 hours ago, JPjr said:

Don’t stress, you’ll have the last laugh. Just wait until they realise that they could have done this at literally any point over the past 4/5 years and didn’t need to wait for a tenuous non-announcement from GW, they’ll feel like right idiots!

You don't see how the (entirely justified) previous assumption that the Old Would and WHFB were never going to be updated ever again would be demotivating for players, while the unexpected announcement that GW were going to revisit the game/setting in the future would re-invigorate players to get their minis out for a single nostalgic game - perhaps as a little celebration?

[Moldek]

@Dead Scribe you’re getting a lot of flak but I empathize with your position, if you’re worried your gaming group might split. That kind of change can be scary. However keep in mind the release is quite a while away, and it won’t be 8th edition. A lot of the early enthusiasm will probably die down in the coming months.

I think if you keep playing AoS regularly, and try to be an ambassador for the game - for instance offering initiation games, maybe a slow grow league, you won’t be hurt ad much as you think right now. Maybe you could even poach some of those returning players : « hey i see you’ve got a beastmen/empire/whatever army, you know those work in AoS too? Want to have a game some time? »

[Ollie Grimwood]

1 hour ago, Kyriakin said:

That's not really a fair comparison.

• One is the sudden extinction of a game and setting that had been around for 30 years, and replaced with something completely different that was initially flawed in many respects.
• One is a hint of a game in the distant future that will almost certainly not replace the current game.

Your message feels like it is throwing shade on the WHFB community compared to the AoS one.

While the AoS community may indeed be "better", let's not pretend that this so-called upheaval to AoS players even remotely compares to that upheaval for WHFB fans back in 2015.

It's not even close.

To have a fair comparison, you would have to have GW have released a video or book where the Mortal Realms are suddenly destroyed, half its miniature range is squatted and then a teaser video is released to say that the Old World has returned to replace the Mortal Realms with a new rank-and-file game on square bases.

Then the AoS community - myself very much included - would be up in arms, and rightly so.

To be totally fair WFB wasn’t suddenly discontinued there was a whole set of (Massive) campaign books and a novel series detailing its ending coupled with a transition period with the rules compendiums/ignoring bases. It wasn’t a sudden cliff edge.  Even now very little has actually been “Squatted” as most still has rules and points. 
 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Ollie Grimwood

[zilberfrid]

1 hour ago, Overread said:

Based on some of your recent posts it sounds like even without this news, you were fast heading out the door wanting/looking for a reason to justify abandoning AoS. 

And that's the thing. The people who will "leave AoS" are those who likely aren't all that enthralled with it. Who wanted Old World and Rank and File. Without GW they would have likely just drifted away from the group and left or moved to 40K or 9th Age or Kings of War. Ergo they were already leaving, whilst when they remained they might have been a local source of complaint about AoS rather than full support of it.

This won't "split the community". Horus Heresy didn't split the 40K block. What's more likely is that we'll see a different generation and block of gamers come into clubs; growing them (That is, of course, if you run a hobby club and not "only AoS" club). We'll see growth of the market. Plus you can bet many many people will play both. 

Again all this talk of doom and gloom of the end of AoS is overblown. There's already competition within GW for fantasy, its called Lord of the Rings. Theres always competition outside of GW with other rank and file game systems. Kings of War even don't do a good job of building their own brand loyalty (though it seems they slowly are) and thus many people use GW models in Kings of War game.s 

For myself, there was a good chance of me leaving.

I am not smitten by the Mortal Realms, my army has not received new models, and am not interested in most of the aesthetic of AoS.

When I am ready painting my current models, am I going to invest in a new army (Kharadron or Tzeench)? Or, am I going to look at other miniature producers, because they are good enough for my skills, while being quite a bit cheaper.

This may keep me within GW's clutches, because I know there is something beyond the horizon that can complement the things I have.

Edited November 18, 2019 by zilberfrid

[Ollie Grimwood]

9 minutes ago, zilberfrid said:

For myself, there was a good chance of me leaving.

I am not smitten by the Mortal Realms, my army has not received new models, and am not interested in most of the aesthetic of AoS.

When I am ready painting my current models, am I going to invest in a new army (Kharadron or Tzeench)? Or, am I going to look at other miniature producers, because they are good enough for my skills, while being quite a bit cheaper.

This may keep me within GW's clutches, because I know there is something beyond the horizon that can complement the things I have.

That’s no bad thing. You’re still in the hobby.  The Horus Heresy kept me involved for a number of years when my interest waned pre Endtimes/ AoS. Things go stale it’s always nice to have choice. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by Ollie Grimwood

[RexHavoc]

7 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I'm gutted.  Some of our older players set up a WHFB 8th edition game day yesterday.  The amount of interest really kicked me in the gut.  There were so many people that showed up for it yesterday, I had no idea that that many people wanted WHFB back.  I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Its really going to tear my community apart and endanger our AOS group.

If WFB is going to tear your community apart, then any new release is going too.

It is sad to see someone that sees a renewed interested in the hobby and finds it to be a kick in the gut. The more people buying from GW means they will keep all the games running longer. It's better than some of the other ways companies (including GW) are trying to increase their sales and tap into other demographics. At least old world players already have a passion for the hobby, it's not a fad for them. 
 

7 hours ago, Dead Scribe said:

I haven't even seen a lot of the guys that showed up before in my life.

Whilst I get that people will be worried that WFB is going to steal some of the player base, if baffles me how you say this and still come to this conclusion.  They are clearly not going to be the cause of AoS losing its community.
 

 

11 minutes ago, Ollie Grimwood said:

To be totally fair WFB wasn’t suddenly discontinued there was a whole set of (Massive) campaign books and a novel series detailing its ending coupled with a transition period with the rules compendiums/ignoring bases. It wasn’t a sudden cliff edge. 
 

The Three years warning here isn't a cliff edge either. And its not even like they are cancelling AoS, but at least you are weary that AoS *might* suffer as a result, as you have seen them remove games before and know what to expect. The end times is a poor example as they never made it clear that this was the end of WFB during its run. I think most people expected the setting to be reset (as they had done before after a big end of the world campaign) or that the shift in the timeline would happen and the next edition would be about the reshaped old world map and we would go back to a stand-off with chaos, but just a couple of years after the final battle.  
 

 

Whilst I do represent probably the absolutely smallest part of this community(I only play AoS skirmish, narratively. I've continued to paint and *not find time to* play WFB. Many of my warbands & projects are designed to play in multiple systems- including things like my post-apoc AoS/40k skaven warband, which didn't go down well in AoS or 40k groups. I only play at home. I'm still running games with the first GHB. I never play tournaments or at stores and never even bothering to keep up with FAQs and updates) I still buy almost every AoS release- currently, but I won't be once this edition is 'complete'. The last book I need is a new seraphon book and I'd be ok with also seeing a new KO book, but after that I have nothing left to buy for AoS and decided a long while back now that this would be the last edition of any warhammer game I'd buy into and so I could go into this edition and buy almost everything.

I no longer see the point in chasing rules every couple of years. I don't play any where near enough to run the rules enough to boredom and there is certainly enough scope with the battletomes we currently have to never need to buy a new army and still have plenty of new things to convert, paint up and try out. I'm sure I'm not the only one that will happily continue to play (what will be) retro rules in the future. Same as many people have continued to play WFB over the last few years. At least with the old world being renewed, some of us will stay invested in GW products for a little longer. I'm already spending more money on alternative models for AoS than I am for official lines.
Bringing back the old world is one of only two ways GW can keep me buying into new games and keeping an interest in what ever the current AoS edition is doing when it gets here. They have already stopped making the things I wanted to see more of for AoS and that was long before this announcement. (and even then, I'm likely to shelve any new rulebooks I end up with and stick with 6th or 8th edition)

I really don't understand why so many people don't just ask their groups to play a game they like, even if it's not currently supported. I get that pick up games are harder, but if you are playing with regular people (and many of the comments of doom and gloom suggest that they do, being they say they are part of an AoS community) then surly people will be happy to play various games, as long as you offer them the same courtesy in return. If they do ditch AoS, it's simply a case of setting up one night AoS, one night WFB. If they refuse, then AoS was probably never going to be their game in the long run.


 

[Moldek]

@RexHavoc I think we have a similar approach, i.e skirmish narrative gaming at home.

I’ve said it before, I think the most important resource in wargaming is PEOPLE. Wether you play with close friends or in a gaming group, or even only in tournaments, your relationship with people is paramount to enjoying the hobby. All the releases in the world mean nothing if you don’t have people you enjoy playing with. Conversely, you’ll get more enjoyment of playing a game you don’t care about with people you like than playing your perfect system with a bunch of squigholes.

GW may release all the products they want, what they are selling is game rules and accessories. While they could and should try to help foster communities, this is not how they make their money. Like it or not, this is on the players. You want more competitive event? Hold one at your local store, make it welcoming, encourage positive behavior. Want to play at home but there’s only your little sister? You may have to switch out of your 3 keeper slaanesh list, and accept that her beastmen love glitter and unicorns. Your friends are on the fence? Make it easy for them, paint a couple small forces, have some nice terrain and some snacks.

This is hard because it’s paved with frustration and never getting quite what you want, but this is how you make great gaming memories and friends.

[Overread]

GW actually does a fair bit - they've highstreet stores which nearly always have room for a few tables and many of them will have a late opening night for games. They also do school packs and such (certainly for the UK). The area GW fell down on is that they basically abandoned the competitive market side of things. Whilst games like Magic the Gathering and Starcraft were building big international competition events; GW was happy to let gamers do that themselves, but otherwise not have any stake in it. Even now GW is only just about getting around to attending these events and giving some official support. But its clear that GW isn't aiming for the "Geek-sports" market. So the onus is totally left on gamers to organise and setup these events. 

 

Plus even if youv'e got a local store or such you've got to work at growing your club. This is something GW could do more with, providing resources and advice to people to help them get ideas and such to grow their local clubs and keep growing them. I think all too many grow once with an initial block of friends and then fail to continue to market themselves and expand. As a result they end up with an "old guard" group who will only ever dwindle down in time (as life and hobby interests shift around). Plus the more of a clique you form the harder it can become for that one new person to fit in and join up. 

[Ollie Grimwood]

23 minutes ago, RexHavoc said:

 

 

The Three years warning here isn't a cliff edge either. And its not even like they are cancelling AoS, but at least you are weary that AoS *might* suffer as a result, as you have seen them remove games before and know what to expect. The end times is a poor example as they never made it clear that this was the end of WFB during its run. I think most people expected the setting to be reset (as they had done before after a big end of the world campaign) or that the shift in the timeline would happen and the next edition would be about the reshaped old world map and we would go back to a stand-off with chaos, but just a couple of years after the final battle.  
 

I never said there is a cliff edge with the introduction of The Old World. Nor have I said there’s anything to worry about with it’s release it’ll be all good.  GW never reset the story line with a campaign before the Endtimes , Storm of Chaos never changed anything and they outright ignored it in the end anyway.   I find somewhat hard to believe anyone reading the Endtimes didn’t think something major was happening, first it’s called the Endtimes and they destroyed a major faction in the first book which should have cleared up and thoughts of a minor tweak.     

[EccentricCircle]

It feels like there is a bigger discussion to be had about network externalities in gaming, and how group size, and number of people playing a specific game affects the value of that game. Its an issue i've encountered when trying to build an AoS group in a 40k centric community. Might be better to do that in a new thread though, since its not really relevant to this announcement.