Dead Scribe

There was a poll in one of the facebook groups I follow for AOS a few months ago and it came out to be like 85% of the respondants did not use or did not want to use realm rules, so I dont think thats abberant at all.

3 out of 4 tournaments I go to don't use those rules at all. The other times we have to use them typically its just one realm and everyone knows in advance what it will be so it doesn't ****** over list building. Matched play outside of tournaments is basically practice for tournaments so we use the same rules as tournaments do for our games outside of tournaments to keep everything standard and get proper practice in.

That and a lot of people I know only buy enough models to cover a 2000 point tournament legal army. So trying to get us to change parameters doesn't work, because a lot of people don't have this extra model bag somewhere where they can gimp their list and play weaker 2000 point lists with. We expect the rules of the game to cover what is legal and what is not legal and we buy whatever covers that.

Thats funny I don't recall really ARGUING or how my opinions fall apart lol. I'm not ARGUING that other ways to play dont exist. I'm ARGUING that the game isn't really built for those and that you need to go into the game knowing what the game is built around to avoid setting someone up to fail horribly after spending a lot of money on the game if their expectations were not met. If wayniac's local area promotes the type of happy casual narrative games that you guys are saying is so common then he shouldn't have an issue. However through his own words, he has acknowledged his area is probably a lot more similar to mine and he may not has as much fun trying the happy casual narrative game approach if everyone around him is bringing the adepticon approach. Its not like a video game that costs $20 where you can download it from steam, figure out its not for you, and then delete it with minimal loss. If you're going to invest the fairly considerable amount of money, and most of you invest the hours painting, then I'd think you better make sure you know what you're walking into from day one before dropping that currency down.

What happens when you discuss with your opponent about toning down and they refuse? Or what happens when you discuss toning down and their idea of toning down is not really toning down? See thats a huge slippery slope to me. Couple things. I'm not missing the point. If you have two people agreeing to do something like that then thats great. The second part of your statement there is where all my issues lie. Because who are you to tell me what is and is not "toning down"? You are saying if your opponent doesn't tone down to *how you want them to* then they are not people WORTH playing against. Thats grossly unfair. What if I want you to "tone up" and if you don't I should just consider you to be someone not worth playing against? Thats where the rules imbalances cause hostility and why I always tune my list. Because everyone understands what tune the list means. Most everyone I have ever met has differing value system on what "tone down" means however. That will depend on your area. In my area, you would be the person struggling to find a different gaming group because almost exclusively the entire region is competitive. That works both ways. They do some casual friendly funsies games too but no one complains about tuned lists because thats the default expectation. The people that complain about tuned lists usually disappear after a short time and find a different game to play. Which is why I will always say bad balance affects casuals and narrative players far more than competitive players, and competitive players seem to me to be the majority of players. At least fortunately in my region.

I think thats great, except that it only takes one player blowing all that up by bringing a tuned list. For me its not fun to lose a game because I took a handicapped list and my opponent didnt. The game rules enforce tuning lists as being the easy path to winning and while the rules are in that format, thats how I will play.

I'm sure it can be more challenging. The key to your statement is "of course both players have to use them". Which is why it hurts casual and narrative players more to have bad balance. It requires both players to be playing at the same level, when the points values of the game do not really indicate actual power level of the armies. That is why I would never try to tone down, because you don't know really if its enough, or if it was too much. Better instead to just tune up as much as possible. In my opinion.

Sounds about right, just go into it knowing that after any update or GHB you may have to rethink what you are playing. Even if you love the models.

Badly balanced rules don't hurt competitive players. We take advantage of that. Badly balanced players hurt narrative and casual players.

I can counter that by saying at my flgs most of us don't give a fig about the models, we are there because we enjoy miniature wargaming as a whole and the fantasy genre specifically and require a large player base to enjoy tournaments with.

I don't know why you are trying to tell me that AOS is not suited for me. Its been suitable for me for a few years now. There is actual skill in AOS. Its how well you can craft your list and then how you use it.

The size of the community and the tournaments are my primary draw yes. The reality is in the fantasy genre there are no other games anywhere in the world that remotely come close to AOS. I'd have to drive 100 miles to play Kings of War with a group that had more than four people in it and I know no other group within driving distance of any other game, so I'd have to just be ok with never playing except for like Adepticon if I played a different game. So yeah no thanks. Thats why I play AOS. I'd say even if that wasn't my primary interest, if who wins or loses is something you care about, then playing "narrative style" is going to be a big disappointment to you because you're going to find you HAVE to tune your list because once just ONE person does, your whole group will begin following suit since no one likes getting beaten as badly as you will get beaten if you dont have a tuned list against someone that does.

Because I don't really care about the models. I get someone to paint them for me. I'd be just as happy playing with cardboard pogs if that were allowed. My main draw to AOS is the large competitive community, not the models or the art or lore or anything like that.

Because I'm invested in competition and winning and doing as well as I can. You can't do those things very well if you are worried about some arbitrary piece of fiction that says you shouldn't do that.

Well yes. Thats exactly what we do here. Its a game. We want to make sure we have the best team possible.