The Rumour Thread

[Kaleb Daark]

1 minute ago, Sabush said:

I thought this was possible in Open Play?

oh it totally is, but I was thinking more of a situation where you might have a mixed doubles tournament scenario and you could each take 1k. 

I mean obviously I never go to such things to win and fully expect to get the wooden spoon at the end of the day...  cinematic trailer visuals first... effectiveness second, that's me.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Kaleb Daark

[Ganigumo]

I'm not a huge fan of the battlescroll. I don't think we've ever seen a nerf as heavy handed as what they've given to gitz here, and they barely touched the most problematic unit in the process (squig herd). The rally limit is actually huge, because what it really does is create a huge incentive to spam bounderz, because it exclusively incentivizes rallying quality wounds. Gitz aren't even overperforming by that much according to their stats (and not overperforming by a lot of other stats). I don't think this will drop Gitz below the b.ar, but I think it hits moonclan grots/hoppers hardest, and barely the squig herd which were way out of line. People will shift to bounderz over hoppers as well, which can be close to as durable (30W 4+ save vs 60W6+save) hit far harder, and are cheaper. 

The arcane tome change seems backwards to me, they talked about the master of magic/arcane tome/flaming weapon combos, but limited it to only non-wizards which seems like the way most people used it anyways?

Just listening to them talk about the Kruleboyz, their problems and their goals drives me up the wall though. They mention kruleboyz are climbing up slowly and how close they are to the acceptable range, but it feels so wrong to be aiming for a 45% winrate with them, instead of using the fact their winrate is so low to be even slightly more aggressive with the buffs. They mention being worried about lowering the points any further, because you end up just spamming wounds on the table, but KB kind of need that because all their wounds are so low quality. They talk about boltboyz, who have never dropped in points, having good output and interesting counterplay, but the issue is they're the only shooting unit in the game with that counterplay and its massive weakness against anything that shoots.
The double dirty tricks is cute, but they're such a low impact allegiance ability most of the time that I doubt this shifts the needle, most of them can still do nothing.
The gutrippa change is nice, we don't need to play the stupid minigame or remember the timing anymore, but its still way too hard to build lists around them, as running anything but the minimum required amount just eats up way too many points for what they do. Also would it have killed them to just remove the hero and monster restriction from it as well?
Edit: They also nerfed KB's best unit very hard with the 50 point increase to skragrott, who was responsible for one of the only top tournament results for KB.

1 hour ago, zilberfrid said:

I really have to hand it to GW, this isn't a bad spread. Now part of the winrate is diminished by the double turn, but it's a lot closer than many other games. I still don't like their games, but can't argue with results.

Double turn isn't really diminishing winrates because it goes both ways, statistically over enough games you'll win as many as you would have lost because of it, not that its a completely random mechanic either as good players are strategizing around it and keeping drops low gives you a lot of control over it.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Ganigumo

[Marcvs]

36 minutes ago, Kaleb Daark said:

I think that would allow for some nice heroic duels, and due to model count would be a really quick game.

Really quick indeed: with hand of dust thrown in the mix you could even leave your minis on the shelf and play the whole game on a 4+ roll 😂 Big plus: can be played on a coffee table!

[Ogregut]

Nice changes to kruleboyz, I constantly forget the scare tactics so a straight minus 1 to hit is good and a extra scare tactic is cool. 

The arcane tome change makes sense, any khorne player taking it should have been smote by the Blood God! 

 

[Vasshpit]

19 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Just listening to them talk

-waves hands around- "uhm, uhhh, ya know" 

[mojojojo101]

New Nagash scrollbis weird, not categorically better or worse either way, but he's gone up in points when he was already too expensive. His 8 casts are just pointless when he can't multi-cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield.

As for the battlescroll; some more small changes to Kruleboyz when frankly they just need to chuck their part of the book in the bin and start again. Hexwraiths up again is kinda annoying.

I get the Rally change but it wouldn't be such a problem if they hadn't got quite so carried away with giving 4+ rallyto so many armies. Still, I don't like Rally at all and am slowly starting to realise I wouldn't miss it at all if it was removed entirely.

The Arcane Tome change feels a bit like a Sledgehammer to crack a nut, even moreso considering they've been generally very light touch. It will still be useful in places; Stormcast only really wanted it for Mystic Shield anyway and I guess Sylvaneth might still take it if you want a guy just to pop up Hive / Cogs... but otherwise I can't see it being more than a niche pick.

 

On a wider point, I'm not sure how others feel but this season has shown the downsides of 6 month seasons massively. Despite being pretty popular there has just been so much churn with new tomes and now a significant change to such a common artifact, it just feels like its really difficult to work out what the hell is going on.

[zilberfrid]

19 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Double turn isn't really diminishing winrates because it goes both ways, statistically over enough games you'll win as many as you would have lost because of it, not that its a completely random mechanic either as good players are strategizing around it and keeping drops low gives you a lot of control over it.

Every randomization draws winrates towards 50%.

If you win as much from the double turn as you lose from it, that's a 50% winrate from games where you have a double turn. Now not every faction has as much capability to use that double turn, but still.

[Grungnisson]

27 minutes ago, mojojojo101 said:

New Nagash scrollbis weird, not categorically better or worse either way, but he's gone up in points when he was already too expensive. His 8 casts are just pointless when he can't multi-cast Arcane Bolt and Mystic Shield.

It's a bit unclear situation, because he can be included in four armies, three of which are about to get new books. Maybe he's been nerfed accordingly to the internal balance of those, but as far as Nighthaunt are concerned, you'd be insane to take him now. Bringing models back to five units anywhere on the table and rerolling/+1 healing rolls was actually synergising nicely with that army, and at least at 900 points you could just about squeeze him in. 

[Flippy]

Some of the OBR warscrolls have leaked...

[PrimeElectrid]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

I'm not a huge fan of the battlescroll. I don't think we've ever seen a nerf as heavy handed as what they've given to gitz here, and they barely touched the most problematic unit in the process (squig herd). The rally limit is actually huge, because what it really does is create a huge incentive to spam bounderz, because it exclusively incentivizes rallying quality wounds. Gitz aren't even overperforming by that much according to their stats (and not overperforming by a lot of other stats). I don't think this will drop Gitz below the b.ar, but I think it hits moonclan grots/hoppers hardest, and barely the squig herd which were way out of line. People will shift to bounderz over hoppers as well, which can be close to as durable (30W 4+ save vs 60W6+save) hit far harder, and are cheaper. 

The arcane tome change seems backwards to me, they talked about the master of magic/arcane tome/flaming weapon combos, but limited it to only non-wizards which seems like the way most people used it anyways?

Just listening to them talk about the Kruleboyz, their problems and their goals drives me up the wall though. They mention kruleboyz are climbing up slowly and how close they are to the acceptable range, but it feels so wrong to be aiming for a 45% winrate with them, instead of using the fact their winrate is so low to be even slightly more aggressive with the buffs. They mention being worried about lowering the points any further, because you end up just spamming wounds on the table, but KB kind of need that because all their wounds are so low quality. They talk about boltboyz, who have never dropped in points, having good output and interesting counterplay, but the issue is they're the only shooting unit in the game with that counterplay and its massive weakness against anything that shoots.
The double dirty tricks is cute, but they're such a low impact allegiance ability most of the time that I doubt this shifts the needle, most of them can still do nothing.
The gutrippa change is nice, we don't need to play the stupid minigame or remember the timing anymore, but its still way too hard to build lists around them, as running anything but the minimum required amount just eats up way too many points for what they do. Also would it have killed them to just remove the hero and monster restriction from it as well?
Edit: They also nerfed KB's best unit very hard with the 50 point increase to skragrott, who was responsible for one of the only top tournament results for KB.

Double turn isn't really diminishing winrates because it goes both ways, statistically over enough games you'll win as many as you would have lost because of it, not that its a completely random mechanic either as good players are strategizing around it and keeping drops low gives you a lot of control over it.

SCE. Dragons copped a whopping 55 points increase (still not seen anything come close to that yet in a balance update) and the Draconis +45 at the same time. Put a typical “all dragons” list up by a crazy +375. Not saying it wasn’t justified, but remains the most serious points nerf (and came before release, after a rules changes, and before further rules changes).
 

Gitz is quite light touch by comparison. Average list up by around 150 and no rules changes directed at them specifically.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, PrimeElectrid said:

SCE. Dragons copped a whopping 55 points increase (still not seen anything come close to that yet in a balance update) and the Draconis +45 at the same time. Put a typical “all dragons” list up by a crazy +375. Not saying it wasn’t justified, but remains the most serious points nerf (and came before release, after a rules changes, and before further rules changes).
 

Gitz is quite light touch by comparison. Average list up by around 150 and no rules changes directed at them specifically.

The rally change, while not directed specifically at them, probably hits them hardest? It specifically hurts rallying low quality wounds. I did forget about how hard dragons got hit though.

The 30 hopper build is probably dead because of it, and I dont think grots were overperforming.

I guess DoK are hurt but they were generally rallying snakes weren't they? And rallying 5 of those still feels great.

There's KO too, but they're in a similar situation to DoK.

 

I know they're in a bit of a bind with rally but I'm not sure if this was the right way to go about it.

[PrimeElectrid]

12 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The rally change, while not directed specifically at them, probably hits them hardest? It specifically hurts rallying low quality wounds. I did forget about how hard dragons got hit though.

The 30 hopper build is probably dead because of it, and I dont think grots were overperforming.

I guess DoK are hurt but they were generally rallying snakes weren't they? And rallying 5 of those still feels great.

There's KO too, but they're in a similar situation to DoK.

 

I know they're in a bit of a bind with rally but I'm not sure if this was the right way to go about it.

I think the rally change is overblown personally. 10w of stuff is still a lot of stuff if you have 1-3w and a 4+/5+ rally effect. Getting up to 5 hoppers/bouncerz etc back each turn is still massive as a deterrent to putting off people from attacking them, and you can’t rally squig herds anyway. 
 

It actually hurts high wound models more who could really spike the rally (eg getting 2 dragons back or buckets of varanguard or chosen).

Personally think rally should be your hero phase only too.

[Beliman]

39 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Some of the OBR warscrolls have leaked...

Seems good overall. A lot of micro-management here and there and auto-buffs that will feel rewarding to play with.
I can see some hammers with nice rend and hughe damage for a one-charge kill

[Baron Klatz]

1 hour ago, Ogregut said:

 

The arcane tome change makes sense, any khorne player taking it should have been smote by the Blood God! 

 

I like the cheeky “take refuge in dark runes and blood miracles” at the article’s end. They really like to play up the “I-can’t-believe-it’s-not-magic!” angle with them. 😄

I was a little worried when I saw Khorne mentioned they’d try to force duardin in there too for the old anti-magic nostalgia reasons but more than glad they’re sticking to their guns that there’s magical dawi now between the Corebook confirming aethermancer duardin and the other duardin using it like Fyreslayers channeling Aqshy’s flames or spicing drinks up with realmstone, Cogsmiths making stuff like magic plant guns in Ghyran and kharadron basically using it but being adamant that magic and gods are just misunderstood science.

If they ever get around to Rootkings I hope for Druid duardin wizards to really drive it home. They’re the same as the other people born from the realms where every blade of grass and rock is crystallized magic so they should be a fresh change of pace. Not even getting into the “mingling” stuff like the examples of a Fyreslayer and a Warden king both having Daughters of Khaine lovers. They ain’t your grandpapie’s dwarves anymore. 😄

51 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Some of the OBR warscrolls have leaked...

And Arkhan & Katakros fans rejoiced! They’re nearly must-takes. 💀👍

Narratively I feel it’s intentional looking between them and Nagash as he’s still in recovery while the Ossiarch leaders are now pushing harder to maintain their massive empire they nearly built overnight and expanding out to pacify Shyish that’s gone wild from both Ghur energy & vampires seeing a power vacuum.

His time will come again when Death is once more in ascendency but now it’s the numerous terrifying leaders of the relentless undying armies that must contest shifting realms and new rising gods grabbing for fresh domains and to crumble the empires of other rival deities.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Baron Klatz

[Flippy]

And now all of them... OBR 3.0 Warscrolls - Imgur

[JerekKruger]

17 minutes ago, Baron Klatz said:

And Arkhan & Katakros fans rejoiced! They’re nearly must-takes. 

I'm not an OBR player, but Katakros's mini has nearly converted me a few times. Glad he's got a good warscroll, he deserves it.

[Kitsumy]

so even gw aknowledge more play= lesser winrate since more unskilled players play them.

 

so they buff slaves.

 

then GW: lesser played army like beast has more skilled players since more focused players play them.

 

ge dont nerf them despite being overperforming.

 

so i see my poor idoneths and seraphons. most underplayed facction by far with 1-2% play rate. so only real focused and skilled players , and lowest 2 armys on winrate( since orcs are bigwagh and they are above 50% even, not counting single factions in books).

GW: totally ignores them, 0 changes 0 points drops and dont speak about them.

Edited April 6, 2023 by Kitsumy
wrong word

[Baron Klatz]

30 minutes ago, JerekKruger said:

I'm not an OBR player, but Katakros's mini has nearly converted me a few times. Glad he's got a good warscroll, he deserves it.

He 100% deserved the model of the year spot of 2019. AoS keeps getting robbed by sheer 40k fan numbers. 😤

We need to do a petition to finally get that event separated into 3 categories so AoS & LotR can have a chance.

[Ganigumo]

28 minutes ago, Kitsumy said:

so even gw aknowledge more play= lesser winrate since more unskilled players play them.

 

so they buff slaves.

 

then GW: lesser played army like beast has more skilled players since more focused players play them.

 

ge dont nerf them despite being overperforming.

 

so i see my poor idoneths and seraphons. most underplayed facction by far with 1-2% play rate. so only real focused and skilled players , and lowest 2 armys on winrate( since orcs are bigwagh and they are above 50% even, not counting single factions in books).

GW: totally ignores them, 0 changes 0 points drops and dont speak about them.

Seraphon is mostly a mix of the repeated nerfs and competitive players just moving on until the new book comes out.

[Clan's Cynic]

4 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Just listening to them talk about the Kruleboyz, their problems and their goals drives me up the wall though. They mention kruleboyz are climbing up slowly and how close they are to the acceptable range, but it feels so wrong to be aiming for a 45% winrate with them, instead of using the fact their winrate is so low to be even slightly more aggressive with the buffs.

Shamelessly stolen off Reddit:

Edited April 6, 2023 by Clan's Cynic

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Flippy said:

And now all of them... OBR 3.0 Warscrolls - Imgur

They seems really fun to play with!

A lot of Cps and that means a lot of combos! From going full shields to ressurect people or just smash people with -4 rend Gothizzar!

[JerekKruger]

Soulblight leaks appearing now.

[Doko]

This new book first glance have almost every old trick and passives deleted and almost nothing new.

But finnally the skeletons are good now

Edited April 6, 2023 by Doko

[Satyrical Sophist]

2 hours ago, Kitsumy said:

so even gw aknowledge more play= lesser winrate since more unskilled players play them.

 

so they buff slaves.

 

then GW: lesser played army like beast has more skilled players since more focused players play them.

 

ge dont nerf them despite being overperforming.

 

so i see my poor idoneths and seraphons. most underplayed facction by far with 1-2% play rate. so only real focused and skilled players , and lowest 2 armys on winrate( since orcs are bigwagh and they are above 50% even, not counting single factions in books).

GW: totally ignores them, 0 changes 0 points drops and dont speak about them.

Beasts took some nerfs this balance dataslate. Cockatrice rules got nerfed, bestigor ability arguably got nerfed (the old one is a headache rules wise) with a small point cut, and both bullgor and the doombull took a point increase. They didn't look at seraphon because they have a new book coming. Feels like a very bad time to look at buffing them.

 

37 minutes ago, Doko said:

100 of the aoulblighh book is out.

 

I gonna try not be negative and i wont give my opinion and only state facts:

 

When you think that gw wont release a new book worse than the old as happened with fyreslayer then they do this shame book for vampires.

I was wondering on what your thought on the fyreslayers was going to be. I remember you being very negative on them, and they seem to have been doing pretty well. Current meta watch has them as the top performing army that isn't over the threshold, which honestly seems awesome. I know that vulkite builds have been popping up and there were a number of magmadroth or hearthguard based lists doing well as well. Honestly seems like a really good book. 

[Doko]

3 minutes ago, Satyrical Sophist said:

Beasts took some nerfs this balance dataslate. Cockatrice rules got nerfed, bestigor ability arguably got nerfed (the old one is a headache rules wise) with a small point cut, and both bullgor and the doombull took a point increase. They didn't look at seraphon because they have a new book coming. Feels like a very bad time to look at buffing them.

 

I was wondering on what your thought on the fyreslayers was going to be. I remember you being very negative on them, and they seem to have been doing pretty well. Current meta watch has them as the top performing army that isn't over the threshold, which honestly seems awesome. I know that vulkite builds have been popping up and there were a number of magmadroth or hearthguard based lists doing well as well. Honestly seems like a really good book. 

Yes fyreslayers now after 3 buffs in points and one edition that is made 100% every rule for fyreslayers(dont shoot heroes and spam heroes) are good.

But for 8!!! Months after the book fyreslayers went from 52% win rate before of th book to 28% win rate after the book.

So yes fyreslayer book was and now continue being the worst book of this edition. Next season when our heroes come back to be deleted turn 1 we gonna come back to our old 30 win rate