The Rumour Thread

[EccentricCircle]

I've said it before, but I'll say it again.

AoS and WFB have the exact opposite problem.

Warhammer fantasy was a really bad idea executed really well. They started from the most generic seed; historical earth with fantasy races. But they wrote it in a really compelling, really engaging way. They made excellent use of anarchic themes, social and religious tension, and the fact that no one was good, and everyone had centuries long feuds to really give that world a sense of depth and character which it perhaps didn't deserve. Add in the excellent chaos cosmology, and WFB is rightly beloved. It provided a grim and gritty "punk" counterpart to D&D at a time when that really resonated, and will go down in history as one of the best fantasy settings ever as a result.

Age of Sigmar is a much better idea, but executed quite poorly. The multiverse they've created for this game has amazing potential, and is the perfect playground both for the game it supports and those classic "warhammer-y" themes of gods and ideologies clashing in worlds of magic, while chaos devours all from below. Done well it produces some spectacular ideas, and provides a far more open and diverse sandbox than what came before. Unfortunately the quality just doesn't live up to its predecessor. I don't even know that its not well written, some parts of AoS really are great. Army books in this day and age aren't as engaging as they once were, but I think the main problem is one of presentation. The derpy names and uninspired presentation of the setting put off a lot of folks who would recognise how brilliant it was if they only read the lore and gave it a chance.

40K is successful because it is the best of both worlds. It was always the better idea, and the more creative lore than WFB, but it was written at a time when warhammer had that edge it needed to get popular, and become beloved. AoS is still young, so might catch up, but I think it would take quite a lot for it to do so.

[KingBrodd]

WHFB and 40K have had 35 years to build their lore. AOS has had barely 7 years. In 3 decades we can come back and discuss which Lore is better.

[Twisted Firaun]

19 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

WHFB and 40K have had 35 years to build their lore. AOS has had barely 7 years. In 3 decades we can come back and discuss which Lore is better.

I will agree with @KingBrodd on this case, as many of the best frnachises take at least 2-3 decades to be properly "developed" (I list Ghostbusters, Transformers, Star Wars Pre-Disney, and Avatar the Last Airbender as examples). However, WHFB Has Tomb Kings, and as a mummy of LONG LOST NEHEKHARA!!! and an Egyptian American, I must stand by my people. 

[Beliman]

2 hours ago, Landohammer said:

The lore of AOS does not have much appeal because its bad. 

Disagree

[W1tchhunter]

I think the only side of Aos story I don't like (other than there isn't enough sources of it) is the stormcast side of it. WHF empire were just so much more interesting to me. Stormcast need something interesting to happen so they aren't just loyal god boys, like some internal conflict or something. 

[Landohammer]

27 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

WHFB and 40K have had 35 years to build their lore. AOS has had barely 7 years. In 3 decades we can come back and discuss which Lore is better.

The 40k fluff that really took the franchise to the next level, (and is what most 40k nerds talk about) was written in the last 16 years or so. So the comparison is more like 16 vs 7 but you have a point. 

My core issue is no one freaking dies in the AOS universe.  There is no sense of dread or peril. The main "protagonist" have built in resurrection mechanics. And the main antagonists do the same. Makes the conflict feel pointless.

Compare to series like the Night Lord, Black Legion, Spears of the Emperor, Heilsreich and any of the HH books. Where the body count is quite large and main characters stay dead lol. Deaths have impact and meaning.

AOS needs to introduce the concept of writing stories/rules for heroes that are long dead. What if the Gotrek or Archaon died in a massive duel. Imagine how much people would talk about that. 

 

 

[Ragest]

53 minutes ago, KingBrodd said:

WHFB and 40K have had 35 years to build their lore. AOS has had barely 7 years. In 3 decades we can come back and discuss which Lore is better.

That excuse is going to be valid until when? 7 years have passed and we are still trapped in a setting wich only 5 names are important and do stuff

Edited June 2, 2022 by Ragest

[Kitsumy]

aos lore is so much better than 40k lore lol

 

whats all the lore in 1000 years of 40k?? posterboys are the goodguys that destroy every other race because they are bad if they dont whorship his supossed god ( since it havent appear in all 40k years), and chaos come from huge black holes, kick some xeno butt and posterboys come to save the day....

 

yes it is sooo rich lore, far better than huge realms worlds with different magic on each, lot of goods that appear and do meanful things on lore and u can even play with... and tons of different armys. not only 4-5 poor xenos with huge chaos one and posterboys in different colours lol

aos lore is so much better than 40k one, but gw never do any game about it, only 2 or 3 little mobile games. a really good totalwar of aos would do soooo much for the game. but no. we need 10 new 40k boring games for sure

[CommissarRotke]

25 minutes ago, W1tchhunter said:

I think the only side of Aos story I don't like (other than there isn't enough sources of it) is the stormcast side of it. WHF empire were just so much more interesting to me. Stormcast need something interesting to happen so they aren't just loyal god boys, like some internal conflict or something. 

All of what you want does actually happen in AOS books...

Stormcast worship gods/deities that are not Sigmar and he's fine with it. They have inter-host rivalries because some Stormhosts view mortals badly (among other things). They disagree with Sigmar and don't get killed or exiled for it. They can visit their mortal families (if still alive) and are told to record what memories they remember. They have the full range of human emotions if they haven't been reforged too many times. 

Please read beyond "posterboys are Sigmarines." You do not need a fantasy HH to have internal conflict or make Stormcast interesting.

[Kronos]

1 hour ago, KingBrodd said:

WHFB and 40K have had 35 years to build their lore. AOS has had barely 7 years. In 3 decades we can come back and discuss which Lore is better.

7 years is still a fair amount of time though. In terms of a skeleton of the lore, which we have. AoS, just isn’t doing it for me. And I’ve tried I really have. The only time we’re I’ve been genuinely, excited, like over the moon excited about hobby has been when Lord Kroak got revealed and when they announced the Old World.

I’ve come realise in the last year, I don’t really care for this setting anymore. At first the novelty and mystery drew me in. I know it sounds really brattish, but so many gaps were left in the first years that my attention just fizzled. Heck, there are still massive gaps in armies which are vaguley established, and in some cases pretending to fit into AoS because the model range hasn’t been redone.

I’ve sat through lore videos, I spend time looking into it, and it just doesn’t click for me (not discrediting in any way or hating on anyones passions or hardwork). I’m sure there’s a big appeal and lots of sales which rightly justify it. For me though there’s a certain missing character and charm from AoS which Warhammer had. I can’t put my finger on exactly what it is, could quite possibly just be nostalgia. 
 

 

 

[CommissarRotke]

22 minutes ago, Ragest said:

That excuse is going to be valid until when? 7 years have passed and we are still trapped in a setting wich only 5 names are important and do stuff

It is entirely up to GW whether or not they capitalize on the goldmine of a setting they've created. They do not seem to be wanting to do this for whatever weird reason. They told us AOS sells better than WHF ever did, yet GW is still not pushing out secondary media in a way that reflects this.

[Ratboy genius]

the age of sigmar setting exists to sell bundles of models. The warhammer fantasy setting was a rpg game at first then the wargame came later. That's why it feels deeper- it is. That's why age of sigmar feels shallow- it is. Selling better means they have slammed out new armies over and over with the promise of later development that isn't followed up (unless you have pointed ears or golden armor).

 

As for the age thing, Warhammer fantasy had the enemy within rpg campaign at this relative time, and aos has soulbound, which appeals only to the ingroup.

[Whitefang]

37 minutes ago, CommissarRotke said:

All of what you want does actually happen in AOS books...

Stormcast worship gods/deities that are not Sigmar and he's fine with it. They have inter-host rivalries because some Stormhosts view mortals badly (among other things). They disagree with Sigmar and don't get killed or exiled for it. They can visit their mortal families (if still alive) and are told to record what memories they remember. They have the full range of human emotions if they haven't been reforged too many times. 

Please read beyond "posterboys are Sigmarines." You do not need a fantasy HH to have internal conflict or make Stormcast interesting.

Never explored enough imho

Especially after Josh ended the contract with BL

[Ragest]

I have two problems with the setting.

First of all, the rule of "nothing happens"

Spoilers from all broken realms and new battletome of dok (is there a command to hide spoilers?)

 

Stuff that happens in books leads nowhere.

Morathi takes a city from sce? Then they are friends. Dok and Idk hunt Lumineths? Friends again. Idk takes back their lantern? Nothing happens. Morathi makes a deal with Katakros? Nothing happens. Belakor annoys sce? Nothing happens. Chamon (I think was Chamon in br3) goes kaboom? Nothing happens. Slaneesh gets almost freed? Nothing happens. Skragott has some issues with Tzeentch? Nothing happens. Malerion? Hahaha, dude. Morathi has some heresy in her files? You know the answer.

The setting looks like it's moving, but is not and is so frustrating.

 

The other one is the lack of interesting NEW AOS characters. Everything is around gods, and I love Teclis, Morathi or Malerion, but I need some Malus, Settra or Vlads.

[Whitefang]

2 minutes ago, Ragest said:

I have two problems with the setting.

First of all, the rule of "nothing happens"

Spoilers from all broken realms and new battletome of dok (is there a command to hide spoilers?)

 

Stuff that happens in books leads nowhere.

Morathi takes a city from sce? Then they are friends. Dok and Idk hunt Lumineths? Friends again. Idk takes back their lantern? Nothing happens. Morathi makes a deal with Katakros? Nothing happens. Belakor annoys sce? Nothing happens. Chamon (I think was Chamon in br3) goes kaboom? Nothing happens. Slaneesh gets almost freed? Nothing happens. Skragott has some issues with Tzeentch? Nothing happens. Malerion? Hahaha, dude. Morathi has some heresy in her files? You know the answer.

The setting looks like it's moving, but is not and is so frustrating.

 

The other one is the lack of interesting NEW AOS characters. Everything is around gods, and I love Teclis, Morathi or Malerion, but I need some Malus, Settra or Vlads.

TBF during 2.0 the whole setting was actually moving, you could feel every step of escalating story by each tome and expansion

Until BR4 we suddenly got a literally who centauroid god who led the story to nowhere.

[EntMan]

17 minutes ago, Whitefang said:

Until BR4 we suddenly got a literally who centauroid god who led the story to nowhere.

God of Destruction destroys the story? 

[Ragest]

Imo Kragnos and Kruleboyz were a big step back on the setting.

[Mutton]

The Broken Realms story was awesome--until the very end when all of the inter-Order conflict was basically retconned. And some stuff was just ignored completely, like Belakor's cursed skies or whatever.

I like Kragnos in concept, but it should have been the long-running conflict of 3rd ed. A slow-moving, unstoppable god that only cares about the destruction of the realms, and everyone else trying to figure out how to stop him. Maybe the other grand allegiances even broker uneasy alliances to try and halt his progress? Imagine Order trying to broker with Chaos forces to save themselves from the rampage of Destruction.

Anyway, at least we got some sweet models out of a narrative that largely didn't stick around for long.

[Thalassic Monstrosity]

I look at WFB and AoS the way I look at Forgotten Realms and Planescape (for those familiar with the settings).

WFB is thoroughly detailed, with defined characters, history, and culture.  It's a setting that's been pretty well set (though obviously there ARE still some holes, like most of the East).  You know what is and isn't likely to happen in the Old World.

AoS is open, with guidelines rather than set locations and history.  It's a setting where magic is extremely commonplace and a fact of life.  "Normalcy" can vary wildly from location to location and story to story.

They're two very different settings and styles.  I think WFB is a strong setting, and AoS is a flexible one.  I like AoS because I have a lot of creative free reign with my army's background, and that's something I value a lot.  Conversely I totally get why it doesn't work for other people (though I'm not saying people who don't like AoS are uncreative!).  The setting doesn't feel alive, or lived-in, the way WFB did.  We have the freedom to fill in the blanks, but that's because blanks still exist for us to fill in.

@Ragest I totally agree that we need more ground-level characters.  Hopefully GW will be leaning into that in the future: we've gotten Gardus Steel-Soul as a model after the Hallowed Knights books and have two new BL characters getting models soon.  I hope this means they'll be focusing a little more attention on well-defined characters as the narrative moves forward.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Thalassic Monstrosity
Some clarification

[Ganigumo]

I still feel like the destruction god should've been something like the "avatar of mork", it's a unique character but is essentially a supercharged shaman who is possessed by mork (or a fragment of his power). The spirit wanders the lands empowering gorkamorka's followers in the heat of battle to turn the tides, but in a way that is hard to predict or understand.

The model would be a big base with a supercharged shaman, with options for an orruk, grot, or ogor in the center. Plenty of physical manifestations of the power would be visible and would take a spectral shape. It would be like a ghost monster made of waaagh! energy.

From a lore perspective it could've been birthed by the massive congregation of Gordrakk's WAAAGH!!! As in a narrative sense that energy gets stronger the more the forces of destruction gather, it would also be a nice counterpoint to Gordrakk (who is the fist of Gork) as even in the broken realms stories he was directed to embrace mork more. It could also provide an interesting entry point for Gobsprakk, as maybe he was the first shaman to be possessed by the spirit and it left him a bit changed.

From a mechanical perspective it would've been a better fit. Kragnos basically just does what destruction does anyways (hit things hard, and the armies have no lack of things that do that), where a supercaster support piece is something the entire allegiance is lacking in.

[Landohammer]

1 hour ago, Ragest said:

I have two problems with the setting.

First of all, the rule of "nothing happens"

Spoilers from all broken realms and new battletome of dok (is there a command to hide spoilers?)

 

Stuff that happens in books leads nowhere.

Morathi takes a city from sce? Then they are friends. Dok and Idk hunt Lumineths? Friends again. Idk takes back their lantern? Nothing happens. Morathi makes a deal with Katakros? Nothing happens. Belakor annoys sce? Nothing happens. Chamon (I think was Chamon in br3) goes kaboom? Nothing happens. Slaneesh gets almost freed? Nothing happens. Skragott has some issues with Tzeentch? Nothing happens. Malerion? Hahaha, dude. Morathi has some heresy in her files? You know the answer.

The setting looks like it's moving, but is not and is so frustrating.

 

The other one is the lack of interesting NEW AOS characters. Everything is around gods, and I love Teclis, Morathi or Malerion, but I need some Malus, Settra or Vlads.

Agreed. Broken Realms was their big chance to shake up the lore and move the story forward. But then nothing happens and everything is fine. The two characters that die can come back from the dead at-will. 

 

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

It is entirely up to GW whether or not they capitalize on the goldmine of a setting they've created. They do not seem to be wanting to do this for whatever weird reason. They told us AOS sells better than WHF ever did, yet GW is still not pushing out secondary media in a way that reflects this.

Per the financial report that was distributed a while back, the black library novels only net around $25K each after expenses.

That hurts my feelings a little bit, bc many of their books are just outright great.  But it make sense given their extremely niche audience. 

[Beliman]

It seems that I'm the Black Sheep of this forum, but I just love the KOs Lore.

I must say that our backstory still has some holes, but our current stories are awesome!! We just ended the second conference of Madralta, we fought side by side with our allies and we even see Grombrindal in action!
We have our Pirate Nation (Bark Mhornar), our classic nemesis (Skavens/Grotbag Skuttlers/Tzeentch), classic stories (find the Lost Barak, raid a temple/City, etc...) and our Soulbound hooks are awesome (our Path of Glory is not bad btw).

Imho, KOs only miss two things:

1. Second wave of models (and that is not a Lore issue)
2. More named characters (coff-coff Drekki Flynt)

I'm not going to lie, I hope to see more about  civilizations growing enough to confront and even kill gods than just Gods playing 4D chess. Btw, so sad that Josh Reynolds don't write for Black Library anymore, his books were really fun to read and understand the world (realms?).

 

[xking]

There is always the Age of Sigmar lexicanum

[W1tchhunter]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

All of what you want does actually happen in AOS books...

Stormcast worship gods/deities that are not Sigmar and he's fine with it. They have inter-host rivalries because some Stormhosts view mortals badly (among other things). They disagree with Sigmar and don't get killed or exiled for it. They can visit their mortal families (if still alive) and are told to record what memories they remember. They have the full range of human emotions if they haven't been reforged too many times. 

Please read beyond "posterboys are Sigmarines." You do not need a fantasy HH to have internal conflict or make Stormcast interesting.

Is there any stories you would recommend? I'll be honest other than Gotreks side I only read the books that have stuff to do with the armies I'm currently painting/collecting. I did enjoy the stormcast in Dominion though. 

[Bosskelot]

Using the time excuse to wave away criticism of AOS' setting doesn't really hold up.

A good idea is a good idea and will immediately be recognized as such. A lot of 40k and WHFB lore was developed in comparatively short amounts of time; like 80% of Craftworld Eldar lore was basically done for WD127 (done when I was only a year old!) and from this one 41 page article they managed to immediately solidify their space elves as something unique, distinct and fascinating. Gav Thorpe has wrote how that article inspired basically everything he's written about Eldar since.

Things like Waaagh da Orks, Ere' we go, the two chaos books, WD127 etc are all very early works and pretty much nailed their respective factions identities down and which current media still draws from or just uses the text from extensively. As I said, a good idea is a good idea and if it's executed well immediately, by people who care and are interested in building a setting, it just works.

AOS has some good ideas floating about in it, but its main issue, and why I can't see people's problems with the lore being solved any time soon, is that is almost being conceived and developed as a narrative before it is a setting. Marketing always refers to the "ongoing narrative of the Mortal Realms" and the studio had to be dragged kicking and screaming into writing vague timelines and drawing some really abstract maps, so I don't think that's a stretch to see. And when you're focused on telling these big grand epic stories with "stuff" happening and plot points then of course the worldbuilding and the setting will suffer. I'm actually starting a Sylvaneth army because the models are cool and the new rules make them look fun to play; but I've read their lore and it is the most nothing thing ever. Bland would be an understatement. And it's not like there's not good ideas squirreled away in there! But... GW clearly don't have any interest in expanding the faction beyond just tree spirits like music and also remember the main girl she was from the old game because same name. FEC have an interesting concept.... but that's all it is right now. "What if Nemesor Zhandrekh was an entire faction?" but then that's all they did with it and they left it.

I think that's why a faction like Lumineth have actually landed pretty well, despite some of the model designs being hit-or-miss, there's actually been work put into what Lumineth society is like and how they live and organize themselves, socially and politically. That kind of stuff can give real weight to a faction and make the world and the setting that much more lived-in and alive.

Edited June 2, 2022 by Bosskelot