The Rumour Thread

[Feii]

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

[Aeryenn]

I wonder if they points will be set accordingly. Compare them with Kavalos Deathriders from OBR. Those vampires are twice as good. Healing, save 3+, mortal wounds on moving, dmg 2 on charging, able to upgrade to dmg 3 after killing a 5 wound lone hero, ambush, rerolable fnp. They should cost 400 points compared to Kavalos. And we know they won't... We love your balancing GW.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Aeryenn

[Nezzhil]

8 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

With all the rules they are better than 3/10. They are an improved version of the previous Blood Knights and they weren't bad units.

[Aloth_Corfiser]

5 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

Can you please try and be a bit more reasonable with your critique or at least word your replies in a tone that is less insulting? I know TGA as a place where it does not usually boils down to this.

[Mutton]

This ability makes them amazing. It's essentially retreat and charge on a unit that gets double damage for charging.

As long as they aren't 300 points, they're one of the best cavalry units in the game.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Mutton

[Ganigumo]

33 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Blood Knights stats and rules:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/05/11/find-out-why-blood-knights-are-the-unit-soulblight-vampires-cant-live-without/

They get a special retreat and charge now which looks really, really good:

Maybe? This rule is weird because the core rules state

Quote

Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat. If a unit retreats, it can move within 3" of an enemy, but must end the move more than 3" from all enemy units. Models in a unit that retreats can’t shoot or charge later in the same turn.

Retreats are normal moves, and units within 3" of an enemy can already make normal moves (it just needs to be a retreat). This  means either they can make an extra normal move (what?) or it's literally just saying the unit can make a retreat move (why?). But nothing here lets it actually retreat and charge. Maybe the rules are changing with 3.0 but still...
"Watertight with no ambiguity"

14 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

Mathhammer: 5 of these guys do 8-15 damage to a 4+ save on the charge (the lances have +1 damage on the charge), with no other buffs. 5 get 16 lance attacks and 15 mount attacks. This isn't bad damage, and it wouldn't take much to push them into a proper hammer

Edited May 11, 2021 by Ganigumo

[NicholasFlamelGames]

1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:

Maybe? This rule is weird because the core rules state

Retreats are normal moves, and units within 3" of an enemy can already make normal moves (it just needs to be a retreat). This  means either they can make an extra normal move (what?) or it's literally just saying the unit can make a retreat move (why?). Maybe the rules are changing with 3.0 but still...
"Watertight with no ambiguity"

Mathhammer: 5 of these guys do 8-15 damage to a 4+ save on the charge (the lances have +1 damage on the charge), with no other buffs. 5 get 16 lance attacks and 15 mount attacks. This isn't bad damage, and it wouldn't take much to push them into a proper hammer

The Sword and Lances actually have the same stats :). Which I love because many times you only end up using the stronger weapon options so I feel this will help with model diversity. 

[Beliman]

What does it mean "make a normal move"? Because being in melee, you had to make a normal move (btw, called retreat).

Does it mean that retreat (or run) is not a normal move anymore?

 

Edit: Ninja'd by @Ganigumo

Edited May 11, 2021 by Beliman

[Damosane]

17 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

Trampling over people to get to stronger enemies isn't very chivalric...that is warped. 

[relic456]

Usually when you make a normal move within 3" of an enemy, you have to choose to either remain stationary or retreat. The Riders of Ruin opens up a third option, a non-retreat normal move.

[Feii]

5 minutes ago, Aloth_Corfiser said:

Can you please try and be a bit more reasonable with your critique or at least word your replies in a tone that is less insulting? I know TGA as a place where it does not usually boils down to this.

I was a little bit harsh but if you are not an elf player you are basically praying the bin writer is not writing your book. I think with some extra buffs from spells/other rules they will be a very solid A tier pick. The rules that differentiate between what you kill is super flavourful. 

I am afraid they will cost too much and that shooting will be even better on the smaller board (if the rumours are true)  

The keep subfaction rules with ambush seems really nice. On average the cavalry in AoS is extremely polarized (very very good or bad/cheesy) so they stand out as a reliable cav. 

[Verminlord]

22 minutes ago, Feii said:

Well this is some peak garbage profile for an elite unit. I would at least expect a better Rend on charge IN ADDITION (I guess we got a wrong writer here heh) to +1 damage.  

1 inch range on Lances??? I play Evocators on dracolines and the 2 inch range on their grandstave is clutch. 


I am not a native speaker but what kind of sentence is: "Blood knights are vampires obsessed with battle, and their codes of chivalric honour are warped indeed." ??  (followed by the sentence that doesn't describe anything that warped in their behaviour) 


From a power level perspective from just these rules: 3/10

From a lore perspective: 1/10 hire somebody else for the lore bits. 

You are off your rocker sir. Did you read the same article as us?

Edited May 11, 2021 by Verminlord

[Feii]

3 minutes ago, Damosane said:

Trampling over people to get to stronger enemies isn't very chivalric...that is warped. 

given what was chivalric in Bretonnian lore or in real life trampling over people is what was considered chivalric if you break that down. If your enemies are infidels/subhumans/cattle then it is chivalric to trample over them. 

[Enoby]

They seem ever so slightly better than Slickblade seekers (5 fewer wounds per unit, 4" less move, less damage off a charge and no MW on attacks, but a better save and bravery, a charge bonus, and the retreat rule). I'd guess they'll be about 220 ish

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, relic456 said:

Usually when you make a normal move within 3" of an enemy, you have to choose to either remain stationary or retreat. The Riders of Ruin opens up a third option, a non-retreat normal move.

No it doesn't. This is bad writing by GW.
Per the core rules:

Quote

Units starting a normal move within 3" of an enemy unit can either remain stationary or retreat.

They are doing a normal move, and starting the normal move within 3" of an enemy. So they need to either remain stationary or retreat.

[Feii]

1 minute ago, Verminlord said:

You are off your rocker sir. Did you read the same article as us?

as a cavalry they are strong - just compare them to the sickblade seekers with 2 rules on their warscroll and close to 0 support from the battletome. As a unit it comes down to the cost. 

The best case scenario seems to be game winning and it depends on your opponent if he deploys correctly. If you have 10 of them get a charge and instead of weak screens you eat something which bumbs your wound +1 then good luck to the opponent. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

1 minute ago, Beliman said:

What does it mean "make a normal move"? Because being in melee, you had to make a normal move (btw, called retreat).

Does it mean that retreat (or run) is not a normal move anymore?

Currently it is ambiguous. The language in the core rules says you decide to retreat or stay put when you "start a normal move". I personally read that as applying to trying to move out of combat under normal circumstances.

Since the Blood Knight rules are special rules, they trump general rules in my opinion. And they just say you get to make a normal move, nothing about having to decide to retreat or stay.

Plus, we have language in other places that says "when this unit makes a retreat", so I believe this situation is supposed to be different.

Normally, retreats are normal moves. But not all normal moves are retreats. I think that's the intention in this case. I hope that they clean up that section of the rules, though, because it is janky. Another example: When you start to move out of combat, you get the choice between retreat or stay. So is staying also a move? Because if it is,it violates the usual rules of not being able to move within 3" of opponents. If it's not, why do you have to "start to move" in order to not make a move?

[Chikout]

The riders of ruin ability lets you skip over a screen you are in combat with doing damage as you go and charge a unit behind them. That's not too bad. Also given that this book is written with third edition in mind it suggest they are going to separate normal moves and retreats. I always though it was weird that a retreat was a sub category of normal moves and not its own thing. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by Chikout

[Dreddships]

I guess GW is trying to counteract charge interactions making blobs the go-to playstyle by making 'elite' units more powerful...

Because those Blood Knights look absolutely nasty

[Ganigumo]

4 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

Currently it is ambiguous. The language in the core rules says you decide to retreat or stay put when you "start a normal move". I personally read that as applying to trying to move out of combat under normal circumstances.

Since the Blood Knight rules are special rules, they trump general rules in my opinion. And they just say you get to make a normal move, nothing about having to decide to retreat or stay.

Plus, we have language in other places that says "when this unit makes a retreat", so I believe this situation is supposed to be different.

Normally, retreats are normal moves. But not all normal moves are retreats. I think that's the intention in this case. I hope that they clean up that section of the rules, though, because it is janky. Another example: When you start to move out of combat, you get the choice between retreat or stay. So is staying also a move? Because if it is,it violates the usual rules of not being able to move within 3" of opponents. If it's not, why do you have to "start to move" in order to not make a move?

The intention is palpable, they're supposed to be able to jump over things and charge.

Now the way it is written, no part of the rule actually overrides the general rules. It doesn't say "As though there was no unit within 3" " or something like that it just says the unit "can make a normal move" which is exactly what the core rules state anyways. Other units with similar rules of making "normal moves" at other times can also make retreat moves, its why the ironjawz Bloodtoof's command ability needs to specify that the unit can make a normal move but can't retreat.

This is just a badly written rule that doesn't do what it's supposed to because of bad proofreading or writing it with 3.0 in mind. 

[Neil Arthur Hotep]

2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

The intention is palpable, they're supposed to be able to jump over things and charge.

Now the way it is written, no part of the rule actually overrides the general rules. It doesn't say "As though there was no unit within 3" " or something like that it just says the unit "can make a normal move" which is exactly what the core rules state anyways. Other units with similar rules of making "normal moves" at other times can also make retreat moves, its why the ironjawz Bloodtoof's command ability needs to specify that the unit can make a normal move but can't retreat.

This is just a badly written rule that doesn't do what it's supposed to because of bad proofreading or writing it with 3.0 in mind. 

No more reactions, so have a counterfeit thanks: 🏆

[Beliman]

16 minutes ago, Neil Arthur Hotep said:

So is staying also a move? Because if it is,it violates the usual rules of not being able to move within 3" of opponents. If it's not, why do you have to "start to move" in order to not make a move?

Staying means that you don't change your position (not even 0" move from FAQs). From Core rules:

Quote

You can change the position of a model on the battlefield by making a move with the model

BUT, a retreat is a movement because you change your model's position, and it's made in the Movement Phase, becoming a "normal move". That was my own logic (?) to say that after reading the whole Riders of Ruin ability, I had thefeeling that the meaning of "normal moves" will change (or polished) in AoS 3.0.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Beliman

[relic456]

There are several instances in the Designer's Commentary FAQ for the Core Rules that illustrate how a retreat move is a type of normal move, but that normal moves are also their own thing.

Edited May 11, 2021 by relic456

[PJetski]

Since they didn't write "when this unit makes a retreat move" it makes me think they will be changing the way "normal move" and "retreat" rules are written in 3rd edition.

[Damosane]

28 minutes ago, Feii said:

given what was chivalric in Bretonnian lore or in real life trampling over people is what was considered chivalric if you break that down. If your enemies are infidels/subhumans/cattle then it is chivalric to trample over them. 

No it isn't. Running people over or seeing people as subhuman or cattle is not chivalry. The warscroll  is clearly implying they like to think they fight with honour and have moralistic codes when in reality they are bloodthirsty brutes who are just desperate to get at their desired prey. Really don't think there is a problem with the wording.