Neverchosen Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Saturmorn Carvilli said: I don't know what kind of Chaos Warriors you been encountering, but mine right hard Pathers*. Two Wounds, 4+ Save re-rolled most of the game, often a 6+ Feel No Pain, 5+ vs. Mortal Wounds and Immunity to Battleshock. I have had entire armies of DoK and KO rained down all the shooting they could muster only to find they managed all of 4-7 warriors removed. Which I think isn't half bad when you consider the sheer amount of damage they had to facetank. Chaos Warriors might hit like they got wooden swords, but if anything; they are almost too tough. I no longer dream of brutalizing my opponent's army with my S2D and focus on the attrition game with Chaos Warriors being my broad and thick anvil in my army. It generally works out pretty good save against something like OBR who just play the attrition game better than S2D. *As in Path to Glory I can say that Liberators and Chaos Warroirs need some re-evaluation in terms of points but I often find many people's complaints translate more broadly into them not knowing/liking how they play. Liberators are made somewhat redundant by the copious amounts of SCE units but Chaos warriors have a place in their army and the meta. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sleboda Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 13 hours ago, JackStreicher said: Well the new WarCom article about Competetive Gaming is rather bad imo Agreed. In mean, really, "meta" watch? That's not a thing. I couldn't get past that goobledigook to read whatever other letter jumbles the article might have contained. Get off my lawn. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 2 hours ago, Ogregut said: This is the thing about about 'this army is to good, this army is to weak', everyone has their opinions and anidotal evidence. In the long run, does it really matter? The important thing is to have fun. For some that's running the toughest army they can build, for some it's facing the toughest army and trying to find ways to beat it. If you're not having fun, look at why. Does your opponent always take the new hotness and pound you into the ground? Maybe suggest some narrative games. Write some interesting battleplans, delelop a story and watch your characters develop personalities. The meta is all good but it's not everything. I've been playing warhammer for nearly 30 years now and I really think there has never been a more exciting time to be a wargamer. So many possibilities coming to AoS - Umbraneth - take my money Soulblight - hell yeah Something totally left field we didn't see coming - bring it on! Don't forget the reason we invest time and money in these toy soldiers - to have a laugh and some fun. To keep it about rumours and some speculation, I wonder if AoS entry for the shadow stalkers doesn't follow the patten we've seen so far of 1 in X must be Y because they will get a muilt part kit release and a shadow queen as a seperare model. The two things are compatible. I play a lot of narrative games, but, with the actual power creep we need to do home rules and restrictions in some armies to avoid the "no-games". I don't know the real motive of the absurd power creep of the shooting armies. It's very easy, in the actual meta, that if a shooting army has a double turn you are conceding the game before starting the turn 2, and the motive you are stopping playing is not that you can't win, the motive is that you don't have enough models in the table to do anything. They made an error developing the "activation wars" and they fixed it, but they made a bigger error creating shooting armies even more effective than any army was in the 8th of W40k. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 40 minutes ago, Nezzhil said: They made an error developing the "activation wars" and they fixed it, but they made a bigger error creating shooting armies even more effective than any army was in the 8th of W40k. Basic GW rules: We just do something new which happens to be super powerful and for which you need the new, more expensive models 🤷🏼♂️ I haven‘t played VS Kharadron yet, though what I’ve seen from Miniwargaming is bananas, same goes for Tzeentch Shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcvs Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 The point I don't see addressed enough in the discussion about the "shooting meta" is also a point that we (as in "the gaming community") could address without the help of GW: AoS needs to look at 40k and learn the importance of terrain, specifically terrain which blocks line of sight. More tournament organisers should experiment with different kind of tables and see if this helps shaking the meta a little Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scurvydog Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 4 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: I haven‘t played VS Kharadron yet, though what I’ve seen from Miniwargaming is bananas, same goes for Tzeentch Shooting. The problem is not just the output, but in most cases the things that go from good to disgusting is some specific combos. At times these combos is the only thing making a book viable at all as well, although with niche builds. KO is powerful without question, the base rules are good, but what takes it overboard is the spell in a bottle and then partly Barak Ziflin. This combo ensures you can basically get the army precisely where you want it to be turn 1, with no risk of being hit first and no risk of failing this or even getting the most powerful spell in the game set exactly where you want. That combo is just bonkers and removing that would fix a lot of things. A simple nerf to spell in a bottle, like a limit for a 50 pts endless spell maximum and perhaps a minor change to the Ziflin rule as well, could take things from bonkers to just very good I think. Another combo from a far weaker book as an example is the Bloodthirster squad from Khorne, all the power in the book is centered on that alone, as they gave all the good stuff to one type of unit, fight twice to demons, engage and pile in 6" and manipulate the fight order (all BTs fighting at the same time). This combo is the only really tournament viable BoK list (ignoring Archaon variants). I can't help but think if the playtesters either are not being listened to or something is just falling through the cracks entirely when books are made. It takes 15 minutes from rules are known to people funding gaping holes and clear problems with power balancing, even internally in books. Like Khorne again, they create 1 sub faction, in a book centered entirely around melee combat, which allows units to fight twice, that is just bound to be best at any time! FeC did this better by making that core rule apply to the entire allegiances, opening up far mere diverse builds at least (better internal balance). Maybe playtesters for KO only had access to the Silver Swords, burning head, jaws and other meh endless spells to not realise how crazy powerful some endless spells are with a guaranteed application without any counterplay. Shooting in general is also a FAR greater problem in a game with double turns. If any potential 3rd edition does away with the double turn mechanic, then shooting will already spike less one way or the other, but right now if for example a Tzeentch or KO list, with the great battalions, forces you to go first and sets themselves up for a double turn, the game can easily be over by the top of BR2. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Isle Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) Wd anyone else be happy if Tyrion aelves were fairly normal elves with amazing swordsmanship, knighthood and attitude? Essentially an army of combat heroes Edited October 23, 2020 by Lord of the Isle 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zilberfrid Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said: Wd anyone else be happy if Tyrion aelves were fairly normal elves with amazing swordsmanship, knighthood and attitude? Essentially an army of combat heroes I think the attitude comes with the pointy ears. As for the popularity, I think the Loremasters of Hoeth were some of the last remaining boxes across the world in the culling of 2019, with their greatsword infantry around the last non-hero. Edited October 23, 2020 by zilberfrid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beastmaster Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 40 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said: Wd anyone else be happy if Tyrion aelves were fairly normal elves with amazing swordsmanship, knighthood and attitude? Essentially an army of combat heroes Wouldn’t that just be prettier Ironjaws? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Beastmaster said: Wouldn’t that just be prettier Ironjaws? define prettier ‘He grumbled in dwarven’ 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 19 hours ago, The Brotherhood of Necros said: I'm just so excited to see how the mortal realms shape up over the next year and for all the cool stuff we will inevitably get! (And also to find out more about Ulgu, my favourite realm!) Surely that Umbraneth 'slip' was intentional? How does an entire unreleased faction get through the net like that, otherwise? Hopefully, whatever's next isn't too far off! I love ulgu aswell but my lord celestant on foot wants his damn sword back. He used to be big talk... killing a mawcrusha in one blow or some unlucky khorne bloodthirster. And now he lost it. Dude is super unhappy with al sigmars weapons.. rip judgement sword. i wonder if broken realms gives new battalions Or artifacs. Would shape up the meta again probly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Juicy Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 58 minutes ago, Lord of the Isle said: Wd anyone else be happy if Tyrion aelves were fairly normal elves with amazing swordsmanship, knighthood and attitude? Essentially an army of combat heroes I hope this isnt the thing to be honest. I would love for GW to keep thinking out of the box with stuff they bring out. Els we get again a generic tolken inspired high elf dude who is probly acting like a snob and fighting like a 1 men army. Personally im done with that. Loves the cows for the diversity of it. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of the Isle Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 I prefer diversity of background to diversity of rules. Eg Loads of factions used to have cool knights and that was fine! I’d love some straightforward sword and lance elves with good stories / character / moral ambiguity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greasygeek Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 14 hours ago, Icegoat said: All that article shows as we have all known is if you dont collect am order army dont bother showing up. Release after release of overpowered dwarves aelves stormcast and now seraphon have plagued aos for the past two years. The slaves to darkness book makes a mockery of warhammers oldest institution. A gobo can now easily destroy a chaos warrior in combat. The meta is now just 40k but with bows and more squats. Hey Icegoat’s back🎉 With all the positive energy released from @KingBrodd I started to fear that their might be some disturbance in the Force. Good to see you pop in to bring a bit of balance yet again🙃 6 2 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icegoat Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 minute ago, Greasygeek said: Hey Icegoat’s back🎉 With all the positive energy released from @KingBrodd I started to fear that their might be some disturbance in the Force. Good to see you pop in to bring a bit of balance yet again🙃 Brodd has his mega gargant. Positivity is allowed for sure. But it's been 5 years and not an order human in sight. I'm starting to think order humans clearly have no place in Aos except as decapitated trophies used by every single faction. Meanwhile what are we 4-5aelf armies deep. Idoneth, lumineth, sylvaneth, morathians and now the inevitable umbraneth. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 5 minutes ago, Greasygeek said: Hey Icegoat’s back🎉 With all the positive energy released from @KingBrodd I started to fear that their might be some disturbance in the Force. Good to see you pop in to bring a bit of balance yet again🙃 Haha you knew that response of his was coming. And if humans had been released it would have been about GW still nog releasing adult toy... oh wait... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Under the Mountain Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 With humans dominating 40k, I'm pretty okay with them taking a backseat in AoS. I'm sure a "normal" Human army will appear someday though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Nezzhil said: The two things are compatible. I play a lot of narrative games, but, with the actual power creep we need to do home rules and restrictions in some armies to avoid the "no-games". I don't know the real motive of the absurd power creep of the shooting armies. It's very easy, in the actual meta, that if a shooting army has a double turn you are conceding the game before starting the turn 2, and the motive you are stopping playing is not that you can't win, the motive is that you don't have enough models in the table to do anything. They made an error developing the "activation wars" and they fixed it, but they made a bigger error creating shooting armies even more effective than any army was in the 8th of W40k. Or. You need to build your army differently then you were before when shooting wasn't around. Very few factions don't have the tools, lots just didn't have a reason to use them before. The activation wars was the perfect foil to the teleport/freemove/run and charge alpha game we were in before. Shooting is a good foil to the activation wars. We'll reach a new equilibrium shortly were each army will include some mix of elements and the wheel will spin on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 30 minutes ago, whispersofblood said: Shooting is a good foil to the activation wars. We'll reach a new equilibrium shortly were each army will include some mix of elements and the wheel will spin on. I think the point wasn't against shooting. But against shooting being the new big thing. You say it will reach an equilibrium where a mix of elements will be part of each army... I think that the equilibrium will be skipped and it will just go into the next big thing. Which might just be one drop move 40" turn one combat armies, or Shadow/Light armies that block line of sight in some manner, or just crazy minuses to hit vs shooting through the Broken Realm books. Maybe the first Broken Realm book will allow the Khailabron temple, -2 vs shooting and Nurgle with their minuses to hit getting another boost. And then those two might be top dog. Swarm armies that can't be shot of objectives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 5 hours ago, Scurvydog said: It takes 15 minutes from rules are known to people funding gaping holes and clear problems with power balancing, even internally in books. They do not listen to playtesters. Usually they bring up the argument of „once it‘s out there way more people can test it, blah“ which is true, yet nonsense in most cases since a lot of the issues are easily spottable 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Kramer said: I think the point wasn't against shooting. But against shooting being the new big thing. You say it will reach an equilibrium where a mix of elements will be part of each army... I think that the equilibrium will be skipped and it will just go into the next big thing. Which might just be one drop move 40" turn one combat armies, or Shadow/Light armies that block line of sight in some manner, or just crazy minuses to hit vs shooting through the Broken Realm books. Maybe the first Broken Realm book will allow the Khailabron temple, -2 vs shooting and Nurgle with their minuses to hit getting another boost. And then those two might be top dog. Swarm armies that can't be shot of objectives. Swamp armies are already and have been a thing for awhile there just isn't the appetite to build/buy/paint them. Swamp/swarm builds have been the answer to many dominant builds in the last 5 years. DoK were mostly a swamp army for example. But, yes new tools tend to dominate for awhile that's true of almost all new things. For example the problem with idoneth was how extreme the speed was. If SCE had high tide it wouldn't be nearly as impactful. And the speed rightfully gave some players fits. But, yeah constantly being off balance is the fun for me personally. The games constantly poses me new questions. Edited October 23, 2020 by whispersofblood Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 17 minutes ago, whispersofblood said: . But, yeah constantly being off balance is the fun for me personally. The games constantly poses me new questions. I agree. Except that I don’t have the time to paint, nor money to spend to keep up. So I do the changes through narrative campaigns and scenarios. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, whispersofblood said: Or. You need to build your army differently then you were before when shooting wasn't around. Very few factions don't have the tools, lots just didn't have a reason to use them before. The activation wars was the perfect foil to the teleport/freemove/run and charge alpha game we were in before. Shooting is a good foil to the activation wars. We'll reach a new equilibrium shortly were each army will include some mix of elements and the wheel will spin on. Sorry but y Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whispersofblood Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 9 minutes ago, Nezzhil said: Sorry but y Because model games evolve it's inherently part of the product. I'm sorry if whoever got you into them didn't explain that to you. 🤷🏾♂️ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nezzhil Posted October 23, 2020 Share Posted October 23, 2020 1 hour ago, whispersofblood said: Or. You need to build your army differently then you were before when shooting wasn't around. Very few factions don't have the tools, lots just didn't have a reason to use them before. The activation wars was the perfect foil to the teleport/freemove/run and charge alpha game we were in before. Shooting is a good foil to the activation wars. We'll reach a new equilibrium shortly were each army will include some mix of elements and the wheel will spin on. Sorry but your argument is a pure lie. If you are a shoot player, well, but please, you don't need to say lies to try to argument that the game is balanced because it isn't. I'm a full destruction player and none of them have tools to avoid been destroyed in a double turn of shooting and you need to be a very good player to win against any of the shoot armies. And I know that death armies have the same problem. The real problem is the low interaction versus shooting, if an army have the enough input damage to remove easy 300-400 points per turn you, as destruction player, don't have enough tools to win. I need to do more things and be a better player to obtain the same results as a shooting army that can crush my heroes without opposition. Activation wars was a silly solution to avoid the alpha strike meta. They could improve combos, improve defense armies or anything that need more brain for the players but be equal effective than make that the other player can't play. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.