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Danny76

“Legacy” Armies in AoS

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How good are most of the old Fantasy armies in AoS?
Not necessarily in a super competitive way, but just as armies in general. As a playable faction kind of thing.

Thinking of dabbling into AoS but ideally with my existing lists. 
Empire and Ogres. 

For the Ogres I have, it was mostly the units that have made it into Gutbusters, but a few Mournfang too. 
Not enough for a Beastclaw list though.. (and no Stone/Thunder beasties). 

So it makes me wonder where my army would sit if it came over. Do you lose out by not taking the synergy of a Battletome. Can you use the Destruction Alliance and still get a good game out of it. What’s the feel of those lists, shoe horned in or a good flow like the newer stuff.

Are the older lists Mostly just there to keep WH players happy that the models are usable. Or are they still in there with the new stuff that’s being released?

Cheers!

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Posted (edited)

 

1 hour ago, Danny76 said:

How good are most of the old Fantasy armies in AoS?
Not necessarily in a super competitive way, but just as armies in general. As a playable faction kind of thing.

Thinking of dabbling into AoS but ideally with my existing lists. 
Empire and Ogres. 

For the Ogres I have, it was mostly the units that have made it into Gutbusters, but a few Mournfang too. 
Not enough for a Beastclaw list though.. (and no Stone/Thunder beasties). 

So it makes me wonder where my army would sit if it came over. Do you lose out by not taking the synergy of a Battletome. Can you use the Destruction Alliance and still get a good game out of it. What’s the feel of those lists, shoe horned in or a good flow like the newer stuff.

Are the older lists Mostly just there to keep WH players happy that the models are usable. Or are they still in there with the new stuff that’s being released?

Cheers!

If you want to use the models you already have, I suggest you go with some kind of Ogres.

I don't think the Empire stuff it's going to be sticking around, as it seems the free peoples will be getting a range update this year.

Edited by xking

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Legacy armys are useless rigth now.

In aos 1 you could play them without problems,now in aos 2 with the powercreep you havent a chance to compete.

You can play legacy vs legacy if you want a equal mathup.legacy vs new armys are autoloose

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1 hour ago, Danny76 said:

How good are most of the old Fantasy armies in AoS?
Not necessarily in a super competitive way, but just as armies in general. As a playable faction kind of thing.


Empire and Ogres. 

 

3 minutes ago, prochuvi said:

Legacy armys are useless rigth now.

In aos 1 you could play them without problems,now in aos 2 with the powercreep you havent a chance to compete.

You can play legacy vs legacy if you want a equal mathup.legacy vs new armys are autoloose

I don't think this is categorically correct, although it is mostly true that AOS 2.0 armies are better than ones that don't have recent battletomes. Freeguild, the main successor to Empire, is a bit of an exception. They certainly aren't top tier competitive but I think they are at least a strong tier 3 or perhaps even tier 2. Shooting is very powerful in the current meta, and Freeguild shoot very well. They also have a good sequence breaking abilities which are also very powerful. Their weakness is a lack of speed and an inability to go low drop. 

There are quite a few defensively inefficient melee armies in the meta, and Freeguild can eat these for lunch (although that does depend on the mission to some extent).

Gutbusters, on the other hand, are categorically terrible. They have no above-average warscrolls, no monsters, no good shooting, very little magic, and no allegiance package whatsoever. They have no good battalions either. I wouldn't bother with these at all until they get an update unless you are playing purely for fluff/narrative/soft lists only.

14 minutes ago, xking said:

 

If you want to use the models you already have, I suggest you go with some kind of Ogres.

I don't think the Empire stuff it's going to be sticking around, as it seems the free peoples will be getting a range update this year.

The free peoples update is just a rumor with no evidence behind it yet. It might or might not happen, and even if it does the existing units may not be going away. Just look at moonclan, which got a huge range update but most if not all of the old kits are still valid. 

 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, swarmofseals said:

I don't think this is categorically correct, although it is mostly true that AOS 2.0 armies are better than ones that don't have recent battletomes. Freeguild, the main successor to Empire, is a bit of an exception. They certainly aren't top tier competitive but I think they are at least a strong tier 3 or perhaps even tier 2. Shooting is very powerful in the current meta, and Freeguild shoot very well. They also have a good sequence breaking abilities which are also very powerful. Their weakness is a lack of speed and an inability to go low drop. 

There are quite a few defensively inefficient melee armies in the meta, and Freeguild can eat these for lunch (although that does depend on the mission to some extent).

Gutbusters, on the other hand, are categorically terrible. They have no above-average warscrolls, no monsters, no good shooting, very little magic, and no allegiance package whatsoever. They have no good battalions either. I wouldn't bother with these at all until they get an update unless you are playing purely for fluff/narrative/soft lists only.

The free peoples update is just a rumor with no evidence behind it yet. It might or might not happen, and even if it does the existing units may not be going away. Just look at moonclan, which got a huge range update but most if not all of the old kits are still valid. 

 

You can use any model you want to for your free peoples, but I wouldn't.

Moonclan has a unique aesthetic, it fits in the Mortal Realms in my opinion. 

Renaissance Germany does not and if GW does update the free peoples range, I don't think they will look like the empire.

The rumor monger said the release was going to be a big one and it came from multiple sources. Could be wrong but who knows, I just want something that fits the aesthetic of Azyr.

Edited by xking

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20 minutes ago, xking said:

Renaissance Germany does not and if GW does update the free peoples range, I don't think they will look like the empire.

I see this a lot and I can’t say I entirely disagree with it. Reading the battle at the end of City of Secrets and looking at the wonderful art in Shadows over Hammerhal does give me a sense that the current Freeguild have a place in Age of Sigmar though.

Yes, I am currently working on Freeguild and my army is wedded to the current look so there is that. I do wonder though if a new player who has no preconceptions would find the current Empire range unsuitable or out of place.

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56 minutes ago, xking said:

You can use any model you want to for your free peoples, but I wouldn't.

Moonclan has a unique aesthetic, it fits in the Mortal Realms in my opinion. 

Renaissance Germany does not and if GW does update the free peoples range, I don't think they will look like the empire.

The rumor monger said the release was going to be a big one and it came from multiple sources. Could be wrong but who knows, I just want something that fits the aesthetic of Azyr.

going by what they did with the Excelsior Warpriest. I would say that the Devoted of Sigmar part of Free people are going to be similar aesthetic to him, maybe gryph-hound are going to be common amongst them too.

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On the subject of free peoples range not fitting AoS isnt the point of AoS that there is so much scope for anything to happen they would fit right in

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Slayerofmen said:

On the subject of free peoples range not fitting AoS isnt the point of AoS that there is so much scope for anything to happen they would fit right in

If there is some random Greystone Kingdom that resembles Renaissance Germany, sure.  

 But the Renaissance German aesthetic does not fit with the aesthetic of Azyr In my opinion.

I used to think like you guys when it came to the free peoples aesthetic. But now my opinion has changed, I no longer find the Renaissance Germany aesthetic to be acceptable for the main human faction in age of Sigmar. 

I think we should have something new and fresh for the main order human faction. Something to set the faction apart from the empire of the old world. 

 

Edited by xking
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Posted (edited)

Watching the wonderful John Blanche create concept art on the Stormcast podcast last week highlighted to me that I think you are probably right @xking. Freeguild could be more Warhammerfied. I am trying to make my Freeguild more Age of Sigmar by the way I am painting them. I’m planning to paint my Greatswords to match my Fists of Sigmarite with gold armour and teal and red spot colours for example.

Edited by Greyshadow

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Most legacy armies are workable but require a good understanding of that army and how it works, they tend to have a glaring weakness or 2 but if you are aware of this and double down on some of the things that they do good they can do well. I play dispossessed sometimes as dispossessed allegiance and other times as order allegiance if I want to use my legacy artillery and miners and I've found them to do quite well against Legions of Nagash, Ironjaws and Hosts of Slaanesh.

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6 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Legacy armys are useless rigth now.

In aos 1 you could play them without problems,now in aos 2 with the powercreep you havent a chance to compete.

You can play legacy vs legacy if you want a equal mathup.legacy vs new armys are autoloose

Objectively false.

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@xking Freeguild aren't the main order human faction that is the Stormcast but your point is valid nonetheless, I would expect that should a new human battletome come to pass it will not be called Freeguild but something along the lines of Azyrite Auxiliaries and dump the frumpy clothes look to something more akin to a Cadian from 40k

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Freeguild can look very aosy/azryrite with the right paint job

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So many replies. Thanks everyone so far!

So it doesn’t necessarily sound promising at the moment. My friend just got his beasts updated so he’s set. 

As we know the updates can go either way (like BCR did for Ogres), leaving lots unusable. 

For Empire I have a huge army, so only some may make it over into any kind of Free People book anyway. 

 

I think the trouble is if i just just grab the Warscrolls from each unit I have, it’s one or two from BCR then the rest just Gutbuster, there’s no stuff like perks or bonuses for the army. Like can characters bestow their bonuses across the Grand Alliance or only affect their faction within the GA.

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Freeguild suffer from the same problem that Astra Militarum do. Its a miniscule model range for a nigh infinite variance of troops. 

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Ogres are not unusable, Far from it, I can't think of a single miniature that can't be used in Aos, Gutbusters are the primary Ogre kingdoms army and contain the bulk of the faction, Maneaters got split into their own mercenary division alongside Firebellies and Giants but they are all present, The bsb is in the compendium with a warscroll and points legal for matchplay as is the Overtyrant which is the new warscroll for greasus, In the compendium there is a list that will give you a warscroll to use for the miniature in question but on the whole Ogre Kingdoms roared into Aos largely untouched which is much more than practically every other old world faction can state.

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8 hours ago, Danny76 said:

How good are most of the old Fantasy armies in AoS?
Not necessarily in a super competitive way, but just as armies in general. As a playable faction kind of thing.

Thinking of dabbling into AoS but ideally with my existing lists. 
Empire and Ogres. 

For the Ogres I have, it was mostly the units that have made it into Gutbusters, but a few Mournfang too. 
Not enough for a Beastclaw list though.. (and no Stone/Thunder beasties). 

So it makes me wonder where my army would sit if it came over. Do you lose out by not taking the synergy of a Battletome. Can you use the Destruction Alliance and still get a good game out of it. What’s the feel of those lists, shoe horned in or a good flow like the newer stuff.

Are the older lists Mostly just there to keep WH players happy that the models are usable. Or are they still in there with the new stuff that’s being released?

Cheers!

For Ogor tactics and also an idea on how well they can go, check out Doom and Darkness' channel on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/user/michaelbeven1

he's taken them to 1 day events and gone 4 and 1 and took them to cancon where he went 4 and 2 I believe, possibly 3 1 and 2.

He's also got a long tactics video in the archive there too purely for gutbusters. 

I ran them a lot last year as battleline in my mixed destruction and for that purpose I found min squads of 3 to be good or if you wanted them to do something then go squads of 12.

I would run the unit of 12 bulls (sometimes it would be 6) + 6 ironguts with the intention of trying to trigger some of the bulls to flee. That way you can use the "down to the ironguts" ability and pretty much murder whatever you want as long as it doesn't have negatives to hit.

2 butchers with cauldrons is also a must if you go heavy on the gutbusters.

Hope that helps!

 

 

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As already mentioned:
The spectrum of powerlevels for legacy armies vary a lot.

  1. We have factions that have no support like Wood Elves,  Tomb Kings or Bretonians which are really lost. Althrough they have Warscrolls and Points GW didn´t gave them any second look since release of AoS and therefore their powerlevel isn´t balanced at all. Lowest tier that is supposed to make people sad. Like, having 40 Useless Glade Riders sad.
  2. We have Armies that have no Alligience but yet available models and current point values that get updated with the GHB. Collegiate Arcane, Ogors and several others counts toward this, exactly like most elven factions. They are pretty weak in terms of power level as they can be only played as a great alliance and often have some weird restrictions in armybuilding. Nevertheless, some of them are even quite ok on the Table like the Drakesworn Elves Guys or Gutbusters. Still low power level in general.
  3. Factions with Alligience Abilities covered by the GHB are the third group. Wanderers, Dispossesed, Free People and Darkling Covens are some faction here. Althrough the Alligience gives them in general a bit more love and makes the faction more interesting to play, the general powerlevel is quite comparable to the second Tier I mentioned. My guess is, that thoose factions are supposed to be allied with the tier-two-factions. Depending on the List and Army it can be quite fun to play and even make a good fight, althrough in terms of magic/mortal wound output and similar none can keep really keep up with a AoS2.0 tome. Malign Sorceries can be used to catch up at this point a bit. Still rather factions for people who like a challange or simply love the given factions design.

That would be my perception of the legacy armies. GW seems to refresh the second and third tier I mentioned here in some of the AoS2.0 Tomes, at least it was the case with Skaven who got merged into one big Skaventide Book. Also we have the Warhammer Legends thing running in the background, which is a slow progress of giving the old Fantasy Armies a free and at least a bit refreshed battletome. Currently two factions are included and the release pace is quite....slow

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Sleboda said:

Objectively false.

Disagree.  As a generalized statement, he is correct.

Oh sure, I suppose you could jurry-rig some sort of gimmick list out of the old stuff that does compete with the newer books.  Like most things, the situation is more complicated than a simple sentence can convey.   But really...the essence of his statement is absolutely true.

Edited by mikethefish
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Most of the older stuff that does not have an updated book is in fact going to be playing the game on hard or nightmare difficulty if your opponent has an updated book and if they are playing at a tournament level.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, mikethefish said:

DisagreeAs a generalized statement, he is correct.

I disagree that you disagree 😛

The statement is far from a generalized statement, and is absolutely incorrect. There is no such thing as an auto-loss, regardless of matchup*. So @Sleboda is spot on. 

Statement quoted below for easy reference.

11 hours ago, prochuvi said:

You can play legacy vs legacy if you want a equal mathup.legacy vs new armys are autoloose

 

 

*Beastclaw raiders are an exception.

Edited by Mayple
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IMHO, if you play in high competitive environment, all legacy armies are a bit handicapped or they need to go with one strategy that only works because the meta allows that (Seraphon). Some of them can still fight, but it's really rare to see them in the top 3.

In another competitive environment (like gaming groups), you usually need to know the meta: What type of lists your friends/ other players use, and try to optimize your list to play to that. Some legacy armies can do that but others don't have enough tools.

Btw, some legacy armies have allegiance abilities or even some batallions without having a battletome and others don't have anything and they just go with their warscrolls and GA abilities, so you can't put all of them in the same box.

If you play the ones that don't have anything you wil have a hard time  to bit anyone. Of course you can use some type of list-building gimnastics: taking GA (with your main faction)+1 warscroll from another faction that gives you enough tools to deal with others (magics, buffs, etc...)+firestorm cities +realm artifacts... but IMHO, it's not enough to fight with other armies updated armies.

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12 hours ago, prochuvi said:

legacy vs new armys are autoloose

Seraphon strongly disagree.

Free People are placing themselves around the middleground in tournaments, 3-4 wins (Someone did  score a top 3 in February or Gen). I very like Free People, I think they  have the best shot (beside Seraphon) of the older ranges! The General on Griffon is one of the most cost/eff monster in the game.

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