Examining The Stormcast in Light of New and Pending Releases

[Black Blade]

It's no secret that the Stormcast, being the poster boys (& gals) of AoS receive frequent updates. Especially because the central narrative often involves them directly. We are experiencing a bit of a renaissance with GW. Updates are coming more quickly and new or updated factions are dripping with lore and interesting rules that are improving the health of the gaming community. At the time of this writing Gloomspite Gitz dropped a month ago and the new Skaven and Flesh Eater Courts Battletomes are a week away from release with regular drips of information coming in from the community site. A common refrain from both myself and other Stormcast players within our community is that the Stormcast lack a kind of internal balance. We have many options to choose from but in many cases our synergies can be clunky leaving little room for diverse army build, we usually end up having to exploit a select few units to compete.

Our most recent update with the Sacrosanct Chamber brought us several new tools that have begun to dominate Stormcast lists. In particular we have the Celestar Ballista , Sequitors and Evocators. At first these were described as borderline game breaking. I think as we have come to see Stormcast are not cleaning up the tournament scene and the output/ of these units you are seeing are being matched by new releases in other armies and they are starting to look more inline with the new meta power-levels. DoK and LoN are seeing armies close the gap with their own power level but this is not to say that those factions don't need a few adjustments. If you look at the damage; even battleline units in GG, FEC and Skaven armies are going to be putting out with minimal buffing we are going to see the superiority of Sequitors and Evocators mellow out which I think is a good thing for the community. 

What interests me more than anything though is the prospect of loving my army composition and rules interactions. Currently I think the Stormcast have rigid and clunky interactions/ synergies barring a few exceptions which consequently are taken in most lists. Consider that Zombie Dragons are going to be conditional Battleline choices in FEC armies and Skaven will not have to lock itself into one clan to have units benefit from clan keywords. These are exciting changes that allow more fluidity to building armies. We may see the Stardrake come into it's own outside of being a massive reactive roadblock, it could very well let us finally take Dracothian Guard units as battleline choices and hopefully they will be appropriately costed going forward. In additon, we may be allowed to gain Stormhost benefits that do not force us to handicap ourselves with poor command traits and bad (usually our only) artefacts. 

It's an exciting time and though it may be a year or two before our next update I think the Stormcast could very likely become a more fluid and "healthily" synergistic army where both our opponents and ourselves enjoy a dynamic tactical experience.

[Future]

Honestly I love Stormcast. I collect and paint the SC models I enjoy and use them in doubles format games. I hope the army plays the way they do now for the next 2-3 years. I say that not out of spite, but because I think for the time being GW has spent enough resources on Stormcast. I do hope the next pass fixes their army interactions but I hope we don't see it for a long while.

[chord]

Great Post!  My biggest issue is I just want more cross chamber synergies as well as more internal point balancing.  

 

[schwabbele]

57 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

At first these were described as borderline game breaking.

Lots of people still think they are 🤣

 

59 minutes ago, Black Blade said:

where both our opponents and ourselves enjoy a dynamic tactical experience.

Actually I hope this happens for AOS in general not just SCE

Anyhow nice writeup, however we will need to see and wait and adapt accordingly.

[Black Blade]

37 minutes ago, Future said:

Honestly I love Stormcast. I collect and paint the SC models I enjoy and use them in doubles format games. I hope the army plays the way they do now for the next 2-3 years. I say that not out of spite, but because I think for the time being GW has spent enough resources on Stormcast. I do hope the next pass fixes their army interactions but I hope we don't see it for a long while.

I think that's a fair statement, GW has spent plenty of resources on him... probably too much but I don't think that will deter them either. I would have preferred fewer options but a more level power distribution within the book.

30 minutes ago, chord said:

Great Post!  My biggest issue is I just want more cross chamber synergies as well as more internal point balancing.  

 

This is a big one for me. Most of the cross-chamber synergies are tied up in (terrible) battalions, this is exactly the kind of thing I am referring to when I mean fluid army composition. 

10 minutes ago, schwabbele said:

Lots of people still think they are 🤣

 

Actually I hope this happens for AOS in general not just SCE

Anyhow nice writeup, however we will need to see and wait and adapt accordingly.

Not to say those units don't need tweaks here and there but I think with some of the new horde mechanics, mortal wound outputs, command abilities and faction spells we are going to see them become a lot more vulnerable than they currently are.  Not to mention Evocators are dangerous but they can lose effectiveness quite quickly with just a few casualties.

And I agree the more viable and dynamic armies we have in the game with a (relatively) level playing field the better.

[HammerOfSigmar]

Unfortunately, I think gw will just give us new and more powerful models when the old model get outperformed by other races....

[prochuvi]

I have as 1700 points of stormcast and yes,evocator,sequitors and ballista are overpowers and nobody can say no.

 

Lon and dok are better yes,but that dont means that these units be balanced,the meaning is that lon and dok are more broken.

 

As stormcast player i hope those changes:

 

Ballista-160 points

Sequitors-140 points or 120 but only the captain can have the special weapon

Evocators-240 points

Every paladin unit a decrease of 20-40 points

Every vanguard unit a decrease of 20 points

And i hope gw dont release more stormcast until every other aos1 army get a new unit.as stormcast player is embarrasing all the releases that ee get when there are armys as ironjawz or fyreslayers with 2 or 3 boxes

 

Also i would like big nerfs for dok and lon as hag queen at 120 points and wytches at 120 and loose the batalion bonus,also lon get removed the umbalanced comand of revive a full unit or only revive to the min the unit as revive a 400 points unit for only ome command points is broken.

 

With those changes all gonna be more balanced and stormcast gonna can bring other units

[Vakarian]

Great post and much appreciated by me as a new player. 

I started with Sacrosanct Chamber because a buddy bought Soul Wars and convinced me to play after we both left post-WHFB. I find the Stormcast very fun and thematic but don't really understand the "broken" comments (at least when the new units are not being played to full min/max). 

Yes, a big unit of Sequitor is scary, but to run at full effectiveness they require a lot of support. You need a Lord Arcanum, probably a Knight Incantor for another buff spell, a Lord Castellant, and Evocators. And there's plenty that can handle even a big unit of Sequitors or Evocators if they're not played well - Fellwater Troggoths, for example, have given me fits. Dankhold do too - one wiped out a 5-man Evocator unit in a single combat phase in a 1250 pt game I played against an all-troll Gitz list last weekend. That Gitz list messed my day up, badly. 

I'll agree that Sequitors and Evocators are objectively better than Liberators and Paladin units, but that's an internal balance issue. I haven't felt like I've been steamrolling opponents in games, especially against the newer battletomes like Gitz and Haunts. Most of my games have left both my opponent and me feeling like we had a chance and the game came down more to play and decisions than the lists we brought, which is a big compliment to AoS coming from an old WHFB player like me. 

TL/DR: new Stormcast seem to fit it well with other new releases like the OP said. Old Stormcast seem a little underwhelming in comparison. 

 

[schwabbele]

4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

I have as 1700 points of stormcast and yes,evocator,sequitors and ballista are overpowers and nobody can say no.

I can, NO you can't even field pure 2k SCE so sorry but I will not consider you as a benchmark However - in certain constellations those units get really really strong - true  

 

4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

Ballista-160 points

Now you are getting crazy. Please stop.

[Black Blade]

4 hours ago, prochuvi said:

I have as 1700 points of stormcast and yes,evocator,sequitors and ballista are overpowers and nobody can say no.

 

Lon and dok are better yes,but that dont means that these units be balanced,the meaning is that lon and dok are more broken.

 

As stormcast player i hope those changes:

 

Ballista-160 points

Sequitors-140 points or 120 but only the captain can have the special weapon

Evocators-240 points

Every paladin unit a decrease of 20-40 points

Every vanguard unit a decrease of 20 points

And i hope gw dont release more stormcast until every other aos1 army get a new unit.as stormcast player is embarrasing all the releases that ee get when there are armys as ironjawz or fyreslayers with 2 or 3 boxes

 

Also i would like big nerfs for dok and lon as hag queen at 120 points and wytches at 120 and loose the batalion bonus,also lon get removed the umbalanced comand of revive a full unit or only revive to the min the unit as revive a 400 points unit for only ome command points is broken.

 

With those changes all gonna be more balanced and stormcast gonna can bring other units

With all do respect a lot of this is ridiculous. 160 points for a Ballista!?? They CAN do a lot of damage if given an opening AND you are lucky. A lot of the time you will do nothing. Or close to nothing. Absolutely no one would take a 160 point ballista. 

Also you seem to want Sequitors nerfed into the ground to the point they arent viable at all. Already they require several synergies to perform at the "problematic" level.

Your answer seems to be to nerf everything actually. I guess thats fine if you think it would make the game better but the whole point of my post were LoN and DoK are exceedingly well designed armies with a lot of flavor and viability. They require light touches to level them off and all of these new/upcoming armies are closing the gap by being powered up in interesting and cool ways. Basically we believe opposite things for the most part. 

[Sedraxis]

Once again I see the argument of: "our best units aren't OP because other factions have OP units. Meanwhile, they're still better then almost any other unit and most people have a horrible time playing against Sequitors, Evocators and Ballistas which seem to make up 90% of all " good" stormcast lists.

Since internal balance is the issue, upping the points on those units is a clear solution, just as upping points is the way to solve DoK (Wytches and Queens) and LoN (Grimgast Reapers, altho i'd also love to see them lose the summonable keyword).

Too often we see people complain that everything else is undercosted while 90% of all models in AoS are still balanced around Liberators and Chaos Warriors, which still holds up. There are clear outliers causing problems and bringing those back down will solve all internal balance issues.

And you better believe that LoN and DoK suffer from the same internal balance problem when Reapers and Wytches are better then any other setup, so the only variety becomes which heroes you put next to them.

[schwabbele]

1 hour ago, Sedraxis said:

most people have a horrible time playing against Sequitors, Evocators and Ballistas which seem to make up 90% of all " good" stormcast lists. 

In the end it's war on the table and at least for me it is also no fun to drag 40 Seqs around :D. Even more so in matched play and that is the only thing which counts regarding balance. Fluffy games or games at around 1k-1.2k points shouldn't be taken for balancing because tournaments run at 2k points. And at those tournaments SCE is ( last time I checked ) at around 50% winrate - which seems fine for me?!?

And I said it multilple times already, why no buff other factions too? I would be super stoked if e.g IJ gets more units and buffed. Why? A buddy would surely play them more often if that would happen , and I like to play against IJ , awesome models

Maybe LVO changes something in regards of win% - there are 18 SCE lists coming   - we will see. But the last time an  expert said we are fine and nearly OP nothing happended in regards of win%

[ledha]

1 hour ago, Sedraxis said:

Once again I see the argument of: "our best units aren't OP because other factions have OP units. Meanwhile, they're still better then almost any other unit and most people have a horrible time playing against Sequitors, Evocators and Ballistas which seem to make up 90% of all " good" stormcast lists.

Since internal balance is the issue, upping the points on those units is a clear solution, just as upping points is the way to solve DoK (Wytches and Queens) and LoN (Grimgast Reapers, altho i'd also love to see them lose the summonable keyword).

Too often we see people complain that everything else is undercosted while 90% of all models in AoS are still balanced around Liberators and Chaos Warriors, which still holds up. There are clear outliers causing problems and bringing those back down will solve all internal balance issues.

And you better believe that LoN and DoK suffer from the same internal balance problem when Reapers and Wytches are better then any other setup, so the only variety becomes which heroes you put next to them.

upping the cost of those units would make it weaker, but would not make the paladins/liberators better.

You would just kill the few competitive stormcast lists and let them with absolutely nothing else.

There is some changes to do, but not those one

[Sedraxis]

5 minutes ago, ledha said:

upping the cost of those units would make it weaker, but would not make the paladins/liberators better.

You would just kill the few competitive stormcast lists and let them with absolutely nothing else.

There is some changes to do, but not those one

You miss my point. If you buff Liberators, you'd need to buff almost everything else in the game. If you nerf the few outliers (not just in SC) Liberators and everything of the same level (pretty much everything) will be a viable choice without needing buffs.

[AverageBoss]

Sequitors are a very good battleline, but a poor elite choice. They only become battleline with a Lord Arcanum as general, and so therefore are only worth taking if you are taking a LA and making it your general. It just so happens that in 2.0, magic is super important to have, and the LA is by far our best caster (with the best being meh to downright terrible). And Liberators were long ago considered an inefficient unit outside the brokenness that was Vanguard Wing.

Evos and Balistas could use a slight bump (20-40 points). I do think we will see a big hit to SC tournament wins if GW ever decides to reign in the Gav bomb though.

DoK can actually be straightened out with some simple points adjustments. Legions is just a mess. You have a collection of units that can be used in 5 distinct allegiances that each play pretty differently. 2 of those 5 allegiances  (Grand Host and Sacrament) are tearing up the meta, 1 is mid tier (Nighthaunt), and the other 2 (Blood and Night) are nowhere to be seen. Points nerfs are not going to fix that without further weakening the 3 non-problem allegiances.

[ledha]

1 hour ago, Sedraxis said:

You miss my point. If you buff Liberators, you'd need to buff almost everything else in the game. If you nerf the few outliers (not just in SC) Liberators and everything of the same level (pretty much everything) will be a viable choice without needing buffs.

Liberators are a bad unit, and they would be average even at 80.

Nerfing evocators and sequitors won't make the liberators, paladins or prosecutors more viable. They will be as mediocre as before. They are NOT a viable choice in tournament (if you want to be in the first half of the classment). Even the Skyborne Slayers, the only vanilla battalion that received countless buffs with the new BT (even the nerf of the lord celestant made him better in the skyborne), is average at best because the units inside it are simply subpar and loose against new battletome simply because new things (including simple goblins) hit too hard and resist well. What the hell are you supposed to do when 15 liberators are the same price or more expensive as 30 bestigors or 6 enlightened ? (who will roflstomp them)

The problem with stormcast tournament lists are Gavriel, not the sequitors (who get shat on by the first decent shooting units they come across, because they don't reroll all saves in shooting saves) or evocators (which the problem is making mortal wounds after they attacks, and not at the end of the combat phase like units such as the Kurnoth Hunters).

The ballista can make incredible damages, but the average output for them, while better than  most of the stormcast shooting units (except vanguard hurricane) is fine. Plus having lot of ballista give problems to the stormcast players than appear on practice but not on paper : the fact that 25% of your army is put inside 5 models who need to stay together and don't move a lot, making the list much weaker in keeping objectives.

Keep the sequitors as they are (but make them 460 the 20, not 400, this point reduction is stupid), put Gavriel at 160, the balistas at 110, change the way the evocator mortal wounds work, and you will make the units much more balanced with a few tweaks and without penalizing players fielding them outside of a gavbomb (which is the main problem)

[Laststand]

13 hours ago, Black Blade said:

It's no secret that the Stormcast, being the poster boys (& gals) of AoS receive frequent updates. Especially because the central narrative often involves them directly. We are experiencing a bit of a renaissance with GW. Updates are coming more quickly and new or updated factions are dripping with lore and interesting rules that are improving the health of the gaming community. At the time of this writing Gloomspite Gitz dropped a month ago and the new Skaven and Flesh Eater Courts Battletomes are a week away from release with regular drips of information coming in from the community site. A common refrain from both myself and other Stormcast players within our community is that the Stormcast lack a kind of internal balance. We have many options to choose from but in many cases our synergies can be clunky leaving little room for diverse army build, we usually end up having to exploit a select few units to compete.

Our most recent update with the Sacrosanct Chamber brought us several new tools that have begun to dominate Stormcast lists. In particular we have the Celestar Ballista , Sequitors and Evocators. At first these were described as borderline game breaking. I think as we have come to see Stormcast are not cleaning up the tournament scene and the output/ of these units you are seeing are being matched by new releases in other armies and they are starting to look more inline with the new meta power-levels. DoK and LoN are seeing armies close the gap with their own power level but this is not to say that those factions don't need a few adjustments. If you look at the damage; even battleline units in GG, FEC and Skaven armies are going to be putting out with minimal buffing we are going to see the superiority of Sequitors and Evocators mellow out which I think is a good thing for the community. 

What interests me more than anything though is the prospect of loving my army composition and rules interactions. Currently I think the Stormcast have rigid and clunky interactions/ synergies barring a few exceptions which consequently are taken in most lists. Consider that Zombie Dragons are going to be conditional Battleline choices in FEC armies and Skaven will not have to lock itself into one clan to have units benefit from clan keywords. These are exciting changes that allow more fluidity to building armies. We may see the Stardrake come into it's own outside of being a massive reactive roadblock, it could very well let us finally take Dracothian Guard units as battleline choices and hopefully they will be appropriately costed going forward. In additon, we may be allowed to gain Stormhost benefits that do not force us to handicap ourselves with poor command traits and bad (usually our only) artefacts. 

It's an exciting time and though it may be a year or two before our next update I think the Stormcast could very likely become a more fluid and "healthily" synergistic army where both our opponents and ourselves enjoy a dynamic tactical experience.

Lots of reasonable points except that there are two things you arnt taking into account. 1. As the posterboys for AOS they are the starting faction for the vast majority of new players. As a beginners faction their rules will stay fairly simple and stormcast are always going to be a point and click army.

2. There are probably more people who have a SC army or at least part of a box set of them than all the other armies put together. Sales wise GW want people to always be grabbing this years SC and either going back to the army they put on the shelf or starting a new one. They know the SC model range is huge but to keep sales  they have to jack the power level of new units or nerf the old ones (they created the tiger, now they have to ride it).

I do however agree that the battalions are terrible. I dont use any and the stormhosts are colourful but just arnt as good as staunch defender. The stardrake is a strange one. A dragon that isnt particularly scary in close combat compared to other monsters? That is flat out odd. 

I predict in the next GHB evocators will only get 1 dice to roll for their mw ability and sequitors will go to 140pts. Dracothian guard are yesterdays men and wont be battleline (they want us to buy dracolines).

 

[Sedraxis]

50 minutes ago, ledha said:

Liberators are a bad unit, and they would be average even at 80.

Nerfing evocators and sequitors won't make the liberators, paladins or prosecutors more viable. They will be as mediocre as before. They are NOT a viable choice in tournament (if you want to be in the first half of the classment). Even the Skyborne Slayers, the only vanilla battalion that received countless buffs with the new BT (even the nerf of the lord celestant made him better in the skyborne), is average at best because the units inside it are simply subpar and loose against new battletome simply because new things (including simple goblins) hit too hard and resist well. What the hell are you supposed to do when 15 liberators are the same price or more expensive as 30 bestigors or 6 enlightened ? (who will roflstomp them)

The problem with stormcast tournament lists are Gavriel, not the sequitors (who get shat on by the first decent shooting units they come across, because they don't reroll all saves in shooting saves) or evocators (which the problem is making mortal wounds after they attacks, and not at the end of the combat phase like units such as the Kurnoth Hunters).

The ballista can make incredible damages, but the average output for them, while better than  most of the stormcast shooting units (except vanguard hurricane) is fine. Plus having lot of ballista give problems to the stormcast players than appear on practice but not on paper : the fact that 25% of your army is put inside 5 models who need to stay together and don't move a lot, making the list much weaker in keeping objectives.

Keep the sequitors as they are (but make them 460 the 20, not 400, this point reduction is stupid), put Gavriel at 160, the balistas at 110, change the way the evocator mortal wounds work, and you will make the units much more balanced with a few tweaks and without penalizing players fielding them outside of a gavbomb (which is the main problem)

Aight man, guess you just don't want to read.

Keep pretending liberators are terrible while many armies with lesser allegiance abilities and similar units keep doing fine. Comparing them to some of the current best elite units made specifically to beat them is also a very legit way to prove a point.

I think skeletons should drop down to 50 points per 10 as well, because they lose to any other 60-80 point unit straight up.

/s

Every time with these topics

I'm not saying SC is OP and needs nerfs, I'm saying we shouldn't be using the best of the best as a median when determining balance.

[ledha]

1 minute ago, Sedraxis said:

Aight man, guess you just don't want to read.

Keep pretending liberators are terrible while many armies with lesser allegiance abilities and similar units keep doing fine. Comparing them to some of the current best elite units made specifically to beat them is also a very legit way to prove a point.

I think skeletons should drop down to 50 points per 10 as well, because they lose to any other 60-80 point unit straight up.

/s

Every time with these topics

I'm not saying SC is OP and needs nerfs, I'm saying we shouldn't be using the best of the best as a median when determining balance.

Well, we can compare liberators with bloodwarriors (same price, nearly as resilient, attack WAY harder and acess to many more synergies) or the ardboys (160 pts vs 200 pts, better bravery, much better offensive output because 32 mm base, nearly as resilient) or chaos warriors (worse offensive output, but cheaper and the invulnerable save making them a better roadblock), who are in the same category. And no one will argue those units are among the best.

Your skellie example is not really good because skellies are taken in big units and are one of the most well known example of undercosted madness. Liberators are not, either in units 5,10,15,20,25 or 30. Nerfing sequitors won't make the mediocre liberators better.  People took them for 2 purpose before : having cheap battleline, or a big unit of 30 because LOLVANGUARDWING. That's all.

[Sedraxis]

12 minutes ago, ledha said:

Well, we can compare liberators with bloodwarriors (same price, nearly as resilient, attack WAY harder and acess to many more synergies) or the ardboys (160 pts vs 200 pts, better bravery, much better offensive output because 32 mm base, nearly as resilient) or chaos warriors (worse offensive output, but cheaper and the invulnerable save making them a better roadblock), who are in the same category. And no one will argue those units are among the best.

Your skellie example is not really good because skellies are taken in big units and are one of the most well known example of undercosted madness. Liberators are not, either in units 5,10,15,20,25 or 30. Nerfing sequitors won't make the mediocre liberators better.  People took them for 2 purpose before : having cheap battleline, or a big unit of 30 because LOLVANGUARDWING. That's all.

I'd argue that those comparissons are pretty fair, seeing as SC has a bunch of extra allegiance abilities and better elite options to make up for that.

Comparing them to Sequitors makes a waaay bigger difference then comparing to liberators, yet you want Sequitors to be the standard. How the hell are we going to buff all other units that don't measure up? (basically 90% of all models)

[schwabbele]

Ahh I remember you now from the 1250 points games thread...  As long as you can't provide any valid data that suggests SCE is OP please stop suggesting random  nerfs. The data which is currently publicly available says that SCE is about fine with roughly 50% win in matched tournament play at 2000 points. Granted I was a bit harsh in that thread but anyhow taking 1250point games as balancing baseline wouldn't be correct either in fact that would plain terrible.

Let see and wait till the next big tourneys are over, GW has still enough time for the FAQs and hopefully will make some good balancing changes accross all of AOS!

And don't get me wrong , I am not saying SCE shouldn't be adjusted, what I am saying is it should be done based on actual real data in the correct context. (2k matched play ) and whatever GW feels like doing to the units in the end it is their game :=)

[Bradipo322]

37 minutes ago, Sedraxis said:

I'd argue that those comparissons are pretty fair, seeing as SC has a bunch of extra allegiance abilities and better elite options to make up for that.

[Snip]

Wait, what?

Extra allegiance abilities? Do you have a different battletome to the rest of us?

I'll tell you what allegiance abilities Stormcasts have:

1) deepstrike

2) -1 to be hit on the turn they deepstrike (if you are "lucky" to get in combat with a 9" charge)

3) stormhosts (if you want to have fluffy rules and bad traits and artifacts)

And don't get me started on the HUGE number of artifacts, because 95% of them are trash (the ones on Malign Sorcery are much stronger).

Let's compare them to something like Maggotkin of Nurgle, who have a lot of viable traits and artifacts, on top of solid abilities.

 

Also, I'd like to point out that Stormcast don't have that many good élite options. Yes, there is a lot of stuff, but most of that stuff is underwelming compared to everybody else.

[Turragor]

12 minutes ago, Bradipo322 said:

Let's compare them to something like Maggotkin of Nurgle, who have a lot of viable traits and artifacts, on top of solid abilities.

But SC are debatably in a better place than Maggotkin at the moment in lots of ways. However, thats not because of their traits, artefacts and allegiance abilities. Those are pretty cool for Maggotkin so that point stands.

Its just that SC have a waterfall of unit options in comparison to like 7 units then 24 named characters.

[Nos]

Usual issue with AOS, people limiting themselves to only ever playing what’s “best” competitively  in a game in which is in no way balanced for competitive play.

Its a self fulfilling prophecy.  Because of the inherent imbalance which will take literally years to fix even if they do fix it, there’s always going to be a handful of units flat out better than the rest. Because certain people are more bothered about winning then they become the “only” viable option because people want to play maths rather than Warhammer.  They complain about the game being one dimensional and same unit spam while being one  dimensional and spamming units. 

Meanwhile you have people who have the skill at the actual game to place high with with KO at the biggest AOS tournament in the world by thinking about how the game works and how to win using tactical nous rather than following  Netlists.

In the other corner People who say x unit can only ever do x beside that’s what the meta says. People who don’t experiment or try stuff for themselves. People who complain about viability of this or that in spite of not even owning it, but they’ve seen it written down that it dosent work or something is always better so that’s an end to it. People who can’t understand that Sequitors being quite overpowered doesn’t make Liberators or Hunters utterly worthless. People who have by far the biggest roster in the game complaining that 18 units aren’t viable when most factions have about 7 units of which 2 are etc. Notably I’ve never once heard this from anyone who has won a tournament of any repute either. It tends to be amateur powergamers.

Honestly don’t even know why they play. Just write lists between you, break out a calculator and crunch the numbers. Would be far cheaper and quicker.

[Sedraxis]

2 minutes ago, Nos said:

Honestly don’t even know why they play. Just write lists between you, break out a calculator and crunch the numbers. Would be far cheaper and quicker.

A lot of people do just that and in my experience they tend to be very vocal on forums / chats as well, more so then people actually that are playing.