AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Duke of Mousillon]

There were no actual point changes were there? Except. Reverting the Battlexbox point increases. 

Edit: I am refraining from commenting on the changes because I fear my initial disappointment might cloud my vision. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Jaskier]

Yeah no points changes that I saw. It makes writing lists easy at least as there's no new units so the current list building tools work for everything except the new enhancements.

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Jaskier Gaunt Summoner on Disc? He is theoretically new to our tome. He has different point costs then in the StD tome rn if I remember correct. 

Edited September 25, 2022 by Duke of Mousillon

[Rellsipels]

In the last battletome the last sentence for the spell Unchecked Mutation ended with "and this spell ends." It doesn't in the new one. What does this mean? Does it mean the spell ends anyway after you've rolled the additional D3 MWs or do you just continue to roll 3+ as long as any models are slain? Feels absolutely busted, potentially, against 1W units if the latter is the case.

[JackStreicher]

Does anybody know if there's a shop that sells Chaos Warrior Heads in a Tzeentch style? (I could not find any)


 

[Duke of Mousillon]

@Rellsipels i assume it is not intended like that. BUT as written in the new tome image I saw it would mean that yes. As long as your D3 kills a model. And you roll the 3+. You get another D3 damage. Repeat as long as the chain keeps working in your favour.

I mean theoretically Mawtribes also have that spell that potentially does all the damage in one cast. So it is not like GW never did anything like this before but in the Butcher spell it literally says to keep repeating it. Thats why I assume they did not intend for our spell to go infinit.

[Rellsipels]

@Duke of Mousillon Yeah that's how I interpret it as well. Unless it gets an FAQ clearing it up I'm going RAI on this one.

[Dreadmund]

On 9/25/2022 at 5:29 AM, Rors said:

You still pay points for the endless spell you can autocast at the start of the game yeah? Just looking through a lot of lists here and people don't have any of them so I'm wondering if it's a free option they're not putting into lists.

Also, sigil looks really fun with some StD cultist allies. 70 points gets you 10 fangs that bring back a model every turn.. you could just sit the sigel with a couple units and summon 4 spawn a battleround while deck chair guarding a home objective.

The Sigil only creates 1 spawn per activation, not 1 spawn per unit.

[Ganigumo]

Thoughts on the new skyfires? They look like trash to me but I've seen some hot takes saying they're good and I just don't see it.

You needed to use them primarily as a melee unit before, by abusing their rerolls, in addition to making use of the shooting for them to be any good.

The new scroll gutted their melee output and let them ignore penalties on the shooting attacks, but 4 attacks with d3 damage for 190 points just seems incredibly low. You can cheese with Destiny dice but even that isn't very consistent because of the variable damage.

Am I missing something?

[OkayestDM]

11 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Thoughts on the new skyfires? They look like trash to me but I've seen some hot takes saying they're good and I just don't see it.

You needed to use them primarily as a melee unit before, by abusing their rerolls, in addition to making use of the shooting for them to be any good.

The new scroll gutted their melee output and let them ignore penalties on the shooting attacks, but 4 attacks with d3 damage for 190 points just seems incredibly low. You can cheese with Destiny dice but even that isn't very consistent because of the variable damage.

Am I missing something?

They aren't our outright killiest ranged option, but they have a 24" shot and 16" movement for a 40" threat radius, which is nothing to sneeze at. They are ideal for outmaneuvering the enemy and sniping out heroes, or dealing chip damage to key targets. They're more if a scalpel unit now, similar to Vanguard Raptors in Stormcast, but much faster.

[Jabbuk]

49 minutes ago, OkayestDM said:

They aren't our outright killiest ranged option, but they have a 24" shot and 16" movement for a 40" threat radius, which is nothing to sneeze at. They are ideal for outmaneuvering the enemy and sniping out heroes, or dealing chip damage to key targets. They're more if a scalpel unit now, similar to Vanguard Raptors in Stormcast, but much faster.

Exactly. That's how I see them too. Plus if you put a Fatemaster with them, they become really reliable, wounding on 2s. I'm looking to run a unit of 6 with Fatemaster babysitting.

Edited September 27, 2022 by Jabbuk

[Ganigumo]

I feel like you'd get more mileage out of sniping heroes with spells but maybe I'm underestimating them.

They really don't compare favorably with other good shooting units. 4+/3+/-1/d3 ignoring modifiers is pretty close to 3+/3+/-2/d3. with a 40" threat range and 4 attacks for 190 points.

Longstrikes are 3+/2+/-2/2 with a 36" threat range and 6 attacks for 240 points.

Here's the math, and even if the enemy AoD, and is on a -1 to hit the longstrikes still win. 3 Tzaangor skyfires are going to struggle to kill even weak support heroes unless you're using DD or buffing them pretty heavily.

They're better at it than flamers for sure, but I don't think they're good enough at it to be worth taking. Maybe if they ignored ward/bodyguard rolls they'd be worth the 190?

[Jabbuk]

2 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

I feel like you'd get more mileage out of sniping heroes with spells but maybe I'm underestimating them.

They really don't compare favorably with other good shooting units. 4+/3+/-1/d3 ignoring modifiers is pretty close to 3+/3+/-2/d3. with a 40" threat range and 4 attacks for 190 points.

Longstrikes are 3+/2+/-2/2 with a 36" threat range and 6 attacks for 240 points.

Here's the math, and even if the enemy AoD, and is on a -1 to hit the longstrikes still win. 3 Tzaangor skyfires are going to struggle to kill even weak support heroes unless you're using DD or buffing them pretty heavily.

They're better at it than flamers for sure, but I don't think they're good enough at it to be worth taking. Maybe if they ignored ward/bodyguard rolls they'd be worth the 190?

Interesting analysis, thanks for sharing that. I'd still like to test out a unit of 6 tho.

For me, it's the Covens that I have no idea what to take. None of them are... Good. If you're not leaning heavily into Flamers or Horrors. I have mainly an arcanites army and the other 4 Covens have no real benefits for me. Host Arcanum is pretty much the only one but it lost the free 6 Screamers (which is unfortunate) and Guild of Summoners is cool but not being able to summon other things than LoC is.a huge sacrifice, I feel, especially since our units have no staying power. What would you guys go for with mainly Arcanite?

[Jaskier]

I think Arcanite lists probably still want to go with Guild of Summoners, right? Lords of Change are better summoned than they used to be because they know an entire spell lore and their auras stack together, plus the third and subsequent summons are easier than before as they cap at 18 instead of 27+. They might not do much the turn they come down but it's a big threat opponents have to deal with. Otherwise, I guess a Kairic spam list might go Pyrofane Cult (but that's still questionable) or yeah you'd probably just go Hosts Arcanum as our mortals aren't really designed to be in big units or have the durability suitable for Hosts Duplicitous. 

[Ganigumo]

For arcanites its gotta be hosts arcanum or guild of summoners.

Transient form is bad and I don't think pyrofane makes kairics good enough, but maybe theres gas if they don't FAQ stacking the spell.

If you have a heavy tzaangor build maybe you could make hosts duplicitous work? Seems like a stretch though.

Guild might end up being pretty good though. You turn a tough BT into an easy one and it encourages MSU kairics which seems to be the best way to run them. I heard mumbling about ornate totems on tzaangor getting reverted to count allied wizards as well again and that would be good in GoS, although I can't find a readable copy of the warscroll to verify.

[Grimrock]

1 hour ago, Ganigumo said:

Guild might end up being pretty good though. You turn a tough BT into an easy one and it encourages MSU kairics which seems to be the best way to run them. I heard mumbling about ornate totems on tzaangor getting reverted to count allied wizards as well again and that would be good in GoS, although I can't find a readable copy of the warscroll to verify.

The Facehammer review on youtube shows everything pretty clearly, you should check it out. For the Ornate Totems:

While this unit includes any Icon Bearers, at the start of your hero phase, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 18" of this unit that is visible to it and roll 1 dice for each wizard that is within 9" of this unit. For each 4+, the unit you picked suffers 1 mortal wound. 

Guild of Summoners does seem like the obvious choice for mortals, but I'm not sure you're going to see much more than 1 summon off it anyway. I'm wondering what Pyrofane Cult would look like with heavy Kairic spam since it isn't tied to a single unit anymore. Something like Kairos, the Changeling (our cheapest 2 cast wizard),  11 units of Kairics, and some endless spells. Or maybe Kairos, a Loc, 9 Kairics, and some endless spells. You're spamming out 90-110 shots at 3+/3+/-1/1, which isn't a bad profile, and generating something like 10-16 summoning points a turn. Sure when you get hit you're gonna fold like paper, but you're still looking at 100+ wounds and a 5+ save with a 6+ ward on the Kairics isn't totally terrible. There's no chance I'd pick up that many Kairics, but if you're looking for a competitive list it might have legs.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Grimrock

[RUNCMD]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

I'm wondering what Pyrofane Cult would look like with heavy Kairic spam since it isn't tied to a single unit anymore. Something like Kairos, the Changeling (our cheapest 2 cast wizard),  11 units of Kairics, and some endless spells. 

Going to chuck this idea into a Guild list instead and run it on TTS. Could be fun for a friendly game, probably took much book keeping for a tournie. 

Sidenote: if you have Kairos and Changeling, plus 10 Kairics, this nicely fits into x2 Battle regiment battalions, plus 205 pts for endless spells. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by RUNCMD
added stuff

[The World Tree]

They really need to clarify being able to cast the Kairic spell multiple times. 

Edited September 28, 2022 by The World Tree

[Jabbuk]

5 hours ago, The World Tree said:

They really need to clarify being able to cast the Kairic spell multiple times. 

It used to be specified on their scrolls. I don't have the book in hand but it should be the same.

[Jabbuk]

Thanks everyone for all your input. I have 30 Acolytes, 10 Tzaangors, 3 Enlightened + 3 Skyfires, 10 pinks and a bunch of splits, 6 Screamers, and pretty much all heroes + 1 LoC. The problem with my stuff and Guild is I dunno if it's gonna be good enough if I don't spam 2 LoC (I don't own another one). Then again, when you put one in your starting list, you have very little paper units on the field. 

The way I am leaning right now is to fill out lots of wounds that have some kind of synergy, fill up Arcanite heroes, 2 Endless and try to summon a LoC turn 1. That way, I have like a 2400pts list but I still have a lot of min size units to play with for subsequent turns. After all, we can't really win games with big models if we're out of troops/battlelines.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jabbuk

[Ganigumo]

8 hours ago, Grimrock said:

The Facehammer review on youtube shows everything pretty clearly, you should check it out. For the Ornate Totems:

While this unit includes any Icon Bearers, at the start of your hero phase, you can pick 1 enemy unit within 18" of this unit that is visible to it and roll 1 dice for each wizard that is within 9" of this unit. For each 4+, the unit you picked suffers 1 mortal wound. 

Guild of Summoners does seem like the obvious choice for mortals, but I'm not sure you're going to see much more than 1 summon off it anyway. I'm wondering what Pyrofane Cult would look like with heavy Kairic spam since it isn't tied to a single unit anymore. Something like Kairos, the Changeling (our cheapest 2 cast wizard),  11 units of Kairics, and some endless spells. Or maybe Kairos, a Loc, 9 Kairics, and some endless spells. You're spamming out 90-110 shots at 3+/3+/-1/1, which isn't a bad profile, and generating something like 10-16 summoning points a turn. Sure when you get hit you're gonna fold like paper, but you're still looking at 100+ wounds and a 5+ save with a 6+ ward on the Kairics isn't totally terrible. There's no chance I'd pick up that many Kairics, but if you're looking for a competitive list it might have legs.

Ok so even if Tzaangors aren't great in a fight you can do some mortal wound cheese with them.

If you lean into it I think getting 2 LoC as GoS is pretty easy, if you're just throwing GoS into an arcanite list it might be a stretch. In a list with 11 units of Kairics I wouldn't be surprised to see 3, although the last one wouldn't be that useful except to score the BT.

[Jabbuk]

I'm looking at a list like this in GoS to summon LoC turn 1. Several key abilities that generate extra FP will help.

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
- Grand Strategy: None Chosen
- Triumphs:

Leaders
Curseling, Eye of Tzeentch (175)*
- General
- Command Trait: Cult Demagogue
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Fatemaster (145)*
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (140)*
The Blue Scribes (160)**

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (250)*
10 x Kairic Acolytes (120)*
10 x Kairic Acolytes (120)*
10 x Tzaangor Host (200)**

Units
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (100)*
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (380)**
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Burning Sigil of Tzeentch (50)
Daemonic Simulacrum (60)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage - Magnificent

Additional Enhancements
Spell

Total: 2000 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 1 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
Drops: 5
 

Do you think I should make room for a Magister on Disc? Is he almost mandatory with Chaos Spawn drops?

[Grotruk]

Don't forget the Fluxmaster. His new spell seems to be a must have in a GOS build.

[Jabbuk]

20 minutes ago, Grotruk said:

Don't forget the Fluxmaster. His new spell seems to be a must have in a GOS build.

I don't have him, unfortunately

[Jabbuk]

I find the new Curseling to be a super good warscroll. Not only is he a great looking model but he seems to be a great candidate for Arcanite General. Good armor save, good melee, 2cast, I'd even take the spell to pass wounds on a 3+,. Feels like it makes him very durable.

Regarding spell, when you have a 2cast wizard, can you actually pick 2 spells from your lore or you can only pick 1 spell and your other spell is your warscroll spell (or generic)? 

 I'm asking because on Warscroll Builder, I can only include 1 spell in the list, even tho he's a 2cast wizard.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Jabbuk