AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[OkayestDM]

4 hours ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Sadness. Will see how he turns out then. 

About the endless spell stuff. So if endless spells should really play a role then I hope that ours are playable. Would be a shame to see them gathering dust for eternity. I could even see it being interesting for tzeentch to take tzeentchs endless spells for free. Or at least one of them but it was already pointed out rightly by @OkayestDM that that would've been spoilered last article. Hoping for the best.

Same. I'm still quietly hoping that we actually do het to take one or more of them for free, because that would be amazing, but I doubt it. Hopefully, they account for the fact that not having one in the list would eliminate one whole faction ability (though to be fair, unless those spells had a truly exceptional glow-up, it's not going to hurt us much.)

If they stay true to their normal procedure, we should be getting one or more articles covering our alliegance abilities, command traits and artifacts, and Path to Glory rules. Maybe even another article touching on a few notable unit changes, though some of that was already touched upon in last week's article. 

Tzeentch is a tricky faction to get thematically right while remaining balanced, but to GW's credit they've done pretty good with the other releases for 3.0 overall. If they manage to find the sweet spot for Tzeentch, then I have high hopes for the rest of the battletomes incoming.

[MitGas]

Do we actually keep fate dice? I thought they went the way of the dodo with the new BT but since Kairos is supposed to generate one per round, they would obviously need to be still there… 

[Koala]

Fate Dice are so much fun, i absolutely hope they are the main thing for tzeentch ( i said it before but secret agendae sound great and fluffy but its rules were actually a total desaster).

The AoS1 BT had a lot of rules support for Fate Dice ( although most of these rules sucked) , AoS2 basically none. Would love more and interesting ways to "Play with fate". 

Edited September 20, 2022 by Koala

[Ganigumo]

Personally I really loved secret agendas, and found them a better fit narratively than fate dice.
The reason they cut down on fate dice manipulation is probably because of how powerful the rule is. If we can generate more or manupulate them more we should expect the actual units in the army to get way worse/more expensive to compensate.

Another interesting way to take secret agendas would be to let the Tzeentch player note down their battle tactic in secret, only revealing it at the end of the turn when it is scored or failed.

[OkayestDM]

Honestly, I see Secret Agendas migrating over to our Path to Glory rules. I think they could be made to work much better there.

 

[Duke of Mousillon]

On 9/19/2022 at 1:45 PM, OkayestDM said:

If they stay true to their normal procedure, we should be getting one or more articles covering our alliegance abilities, command traits and artifacts, and Path to Glory rules.

Well we did get an article today thats pure lore without anything about the actual tome. Does that count? 

[OkayestDM]

1 hour ago, Duke of Mousillon said:

Well we did get an article today thats pure lore without anything about the actual tome. Does that count? 

I mean, it counts as an article. I was a little disappointed that it was exclusively a fluff piece without any information regarding rules changes, but I guess I can wait for Man-Reads-Book this weekend to have my curiosity sated.

[Adammck66]

Leaks make no sense lol.

I can find a full Votanm codex a month early but cant find a sniff of our battletome a day before preorders.

Just as the changer planned  guess

[Malakithe]

12 hours ago, Adammck66 said:

Leaks make no sense lol.

I can find a full Votanm codex a month early but cant find a sniff of our battletome a day before preorders.

Just as the changer planned  guess

Yeah theres is almost nothing out here for both DoT and LRL. Very strange

[MitGas]

Check the link for the new rules - thanks to Sprues&Brews! 👍

Thread might finally now get out of this subforum 👌

[Ganigumo]

I can't believe they just kind of left cult of the transient form as-is. At least its not paired with the worst artefact & command trait in the book anymore but yeesh.

Its one of my favorite subfactions from a narrative and conceptual standpoint but that rule is just awful and always has been.

Like if you have 60 acolytes in your list you get to fight on death with a bunch of dudes that do no damage, and still need to spend points on another infantry unit to only get an extra 6 models worth like 100 points.

Would it have really been too much to let them add enlightened or skyfires? Or just add the tzaangor models to the kairic unit so we don't need to buy extra units and try to position to get anything out of it?

[Malakithe]

Well I had a bad feeling and it was largely true...the basically just took the current book and took stuff away or left as is. Very few good/positive changes. And as usually the points costs are crazy bad but I think they point stuff wrong for AoS in general.

Im not a fan of the only new faction ability forcing you to either buy an endless spell to use it or waste it completely. 

Looks like they reverted most of the box changes at least.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Malakithe

[Ganigumo]

The warscroll changes are largely inconsequential outside of a few exceptions.

Biggest winner is the changecaster, its new spell is -1 to save and thats fantastic.

Imo other winners are: Kairos, LoC, gaunt summoner, kairics & tzaangors (because of reversions but I don't think they're any better than in the last book). I think kairos is a winner since an extra destiny die every turn is probably better than his old once per game ability, at least for tzeentch armies.

Losers are: changeling, fatemaster, blue scribes, burning sigil?

Fatemaster traded the CA for a +1 to wound aura, so he's still playable but its weaker than hit rerolls, scribes lost their spell but still have the once per game cast on a 2+ so they might show up still.

Everything else that changed was pretty minor or inconsequential and I doubt will shift things much.

The subfaction abilities are generally weaker, but still very playable outside of Transient form and maybe pyrofane cult.

We got a really good set of battle tactics though, and a couple GS that are in the running.

[MitGas]

I‘m not sure the Gaunt Summoner is worth it now, for the rest I mostly agree with others’ sentiments. The new rule is fun but that‘s about it, can‘t really rely on it… and since he doesn‘t include a unit of daemons, it‘s a colossal nerf despite the silver tower reinforcements (that could also backfire).

A bit of a shame as he‘s probably my favorite model… 

[Halkbat]

Gaunt summoner did gain a better armour save and knowing all the lore of fate spells.  As well as improving his own warscroll spell to 5 dice vs monsters and having a +1 to cast and unbind.

[Aeryenn]

Is Tzeentch build on mortals still weak with the new book?

[Causalis]

2 hours ago, Halkbat said:

Gaunt summoner did gain a better armour save and knowing all the lore of fate spells.  As well as improving his own warscroll spell to 5 dice vs monsters and having a +1 to cast and unbind.

That's nice actually. You sure it's Lore of Fate (mortal Lore) not Lore of Change (Daemon Lore)? 

 

I've also heard that the Changeling changed (lol) again from the battle box. He has the box weapon profile but he can throw back enemy spells that he unbinds again. Any confirmation on this? Can he also cast/unbind 2 spells again? 

 

Kairic Acolytes are also 5+ save again and can still cast their - 1 Rend spell if they are at least 9 models. So they are pretty much as we know them. 

[Grimrock]

3 hours ago, Aeryenn said:

Is Tzeentch build on mortals still weak with the new book?

More or less. Generally speaking the units got worse for the same points value and the removal of agendas, but the spells are better and there is an opportunity to chain a bunch of buffs/debuffs together to cause a lot of damage. Kind of a net neutral honestly as spells can be unbound, but it does put more emphasis on the wizards which feels a Tzeentchy at least. Battle tactics and strategies are pretty easy to work with though so it should be a bit easier to win, it's just winning in the least fun way you can imagine. 

Overall I'm super meh on the book. Coming from Maggotkin where everything got re-worked so well and the book had such an amazing theme, this feels like a massive letdown. Basically an errata of the previous book with nothing that really draws you in. Lists aren't going to change massively, you'll see a changecaster in there for sure but not much else is going to shake things up. I do think blue scribes are still fantastic because they know the (much improved) mortal lore and can still auto cast spells on a 2+ every turn. 

I think the book is going to be able to write some competitive lists, but I don't think those games are going to be fun for anyone. What I'm seeing is a sigil to pin your opponent in their deployment zone with free spawn, yoloing an incarnate attached to a cheap magister into the lines turn one in the hopes of getting the magister killed, and a bunch of horrors to sit on the points. Basically doing everything you can to prevent the enemy army from playing the game while you sit on objectives and wrack up the points. A couple powerful casters sniping off heroes or support pieces at will and ranged damage to kill whatever escapes the hell of the deployment zone. It sounds... awful really. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Grimrock

[Jaskier]

Yeah, this book is disappointing not in a competitive sense but just in terms of reinvigorating my interest in the army. There's a fair share of small changes, usually to do with spell effects, and I like that a lot of the bad changes in Arcane Cataclysm like the Kairic nerfs got reverted, but it's just sad to see they put so much effort into Maggotkin (who did need more of a rework than Tzeentch, mind) and did so little for this book.

Kairos and Lords of Change are still great, maybe even better, though I note the loss of Hosts Duplicitous' command trait (a replacement exists for just one model) and the Blue Scribes' buff aura spell. I guess it gives the Tome of Eyes a bit more of a purpose now. There's some cool changes to things like Chaos Spawn and other units that make them at least a bit more interesting. The Guild of Summoners also has an easier time summoning subsequent Lords of Change after the second which is funny. A lot of heroes getting +1 save is quite nice too. 

There's already a few things I wonder if they'll get errata'd, one namely being that per the rules Kairos/LoCs' +1 to cast, dispel and unbind stack as they say within range of this unit and not within range of any units with this ability. My usual Hosts list using the two of them will definitely be changing but I'm not sure what direction I'll go in. If it's intended that the birds' ability does stack, that's really nasty. Also, the endless spell steal does work as I thought, though notably it does mean the big birds lose their free auto dispel. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jaskier

[Grimrock]

13 minutes ago, Jaskier said:

There's already a few things I wonder if they'll get errata'd, one namely being that per the rules Kairos/LoCs' +1 to cast, dispel and unbind stack as they say within range of this unit and not within range of any units with this ability. My usual Hosts list using the two of them will definitely be changing but I'm not sure what direction I'll go in. 

I'm not so sure it will. Considering Kairos lost his unique spell and now has Infernal Gateway it actually gives you a reason to have a Lord of Change in your army. Without the stacking there's no way anyone would take one outside getting it free in Guild, and honestly it's a pretty tough ask even with bonus stacking. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Grimrock

[Jaskier]

1 hour ago, Grimrock said:

I'm not so sure it will. Considering Kairos lost his unique spell and now has Infernal Gateway it actually gives you a reason to have a Lord of Change in your army. Without the stacking there's no way anyone would take one outside getting it free in Guild, and honestly it's a pretty tough ask even with bonus stacking. 

I was going to disagree as the Lord of Change basically only got buffs (except the free dispel being gone) but looking at them again, now that Kairos has that +1 ability and they share the same spell, yeah there's actually nothing it does for you that Kairos doesn't also do now, especially as both share the "know an entire lore" gimmick. The main differences are access to enhancements, and I think the mortals have the better command traits by far so that's a wash. The Nine Eyed Tome is pretty good, but otherwise an extra cast from the Arcane Tome seems the best bet. Hmm. I'll still run both but yeah I think if you just want one it definitely should just be Kairos even moreso than before. 

Edit - some extra thoughts; 

Screamers look very nice now. They lost the conditional D3 Damage / mortals versus monsters and wizards respectively but their base melee stats and their Slashing Fins both got buffed quite significantly. +1 to-hit and +1 Rend means they aren't a joke in combat anymore. Slashing Fins triggers on a 4+ instead of a 5+ AND it triggers on runs, charges and retreats! I'm very happy with that.

Flamers also got a few buffs, namely +1 to-hit against units of 5+ instead of 10+ (this is nice as 5 is standard size for many armies) and an extra shot instead of a stacked hit buff when near any Exalted Flamers/Burning Chariots. The key thing to note here is their hit and wound scores swapped (which is odd as Exalteds' didn't) so now it's possible and very easy for them to hit on 2s but they wound on 4s - it's a good thing the Fatemaster provides +1 to-wound for free now huh. The 4+ save is cool too, though I will miss their exploding in combat gimmick. For comparison to before with their shooting when buffed, the old style was 3+ re-rolling to-hit for 1CP and 3+ to-wound versus getting 2+ to-hit and 3+ to-wound with no CP needed and access to an additional shot per model. The latter obviously has more potential but it is spendy - nicely enough the points for all units in question did not change so the combo won't cost anymore than it did prior. Rend -1 at best in Eternal Conflagration is still not great but honestly we now have even more ways to nuke save rolls via spell debuffs so that's not as big a concern I feel. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jaskier

[Halkbat]

I want to like the new flamers but 190 points for 6 wounds is just too fragile even with the improved save.

[Jaskier]

I mean Flamers have always been a glass cannon that folds to enemy shooting so that's not something new 😅 At the very least you can boost them to a 3+ save. I'm not sure they are worth it either but they should do better than they did, they certainly have more potential, they can always get points drops later on if need be. They are a prime target to hide in a Gaunt Summoners' silver tower to try and avoid enemy shooting if you want to go that route. 

I haven't seen much chatter about our cavalry. Enlightened are the same as in the box set but at 180 for 3 which is a big drop. Skyfires lost their combat re-rolls as expected but now ignore positive save modifiers for their own attacks and ignore negative modifiers when making those attacks. It's certainly a cool new rule, though I dunno just how strong it is given their actual stats. It's a shame they aren't Mortals and so don't count for that 18"+ battle tactic as they'd be perfect for it. 

Just as an aside, I know that the Goonhammer AoS reviews generally aren't great as they miss lots of key details, but wow their Tzeentch one is terrible. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Jaskier

[Nightseer2012]

1 hour ago, Halkbat said:

I want to like the new flamers but 190 points for 6 wounds is just too fragile even with the improved save.

I feel like flamers will shine the most in Silver Tower deep strike or as summons, but even having them out near a demon hero for the -1 to hit and an increased save it still more resilient than they were.  I feel like making use of "disruption" Chaos Spawn summons is also going to be something I try to make more use of in this battletome.  T1 Disrupt key units with Arcane Totem & Bolt of Change, move up the Summoner & Magister with a "Silver Tower" squad of flamers and horrors and pick something to melt with ranged firepower?

[Rors]

You still pay points for the endless spell you can autocast at the start of the game yeah? Just looking through a lot of lists here and people don't have any of them so I'm wondering if it's a free option they're not putting into lists.

Also, sigil looks really fun with some StD cultist allies. 70 points gets you 10 fangs that bring back a model every turn.. you could just sit the sigel with a couple units and summon 4 spawn a battleround while deck chair guarding a home objective.